Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » It whipped me. I give up (headliner)
| It whipped me. I give up [message #260133] |
Tue, 26 August 2014 17:15  |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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Man I hate to fail but fail I have. While there are things I can do pretty well, apparently gluing vinyl to Masonite/FRP/etc, isn't one of them.
Last year I made new headliner boards and covered them with white vinyl. Looked great. This year, in the heat of the summer some places started to sag off and eluded my attempts to re-glue them. this morning I visited an automotive upholstery place where I know the manager and asked him how he did it.
" Spray contact cement like you get anywhere, wait till it's almost dry and put the two pieces together...that's it"
So I go home, remove one of the Masonite panels and do just that only to have the vinyl wrinkle up where the glue was apparently too thick. I spread it as evenly as I could.
So I've pulled it all down, ripped the old new vinyl off and am taking it to them. I just don't have time to screw with it any more.
Man, I really hate to be be beaten by something. &^&$#@))(^%#
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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| Re: It whipped me. I give up [message #260137 is a reply to message #260133] |
Tue, 26 August 2014 17:34  |
Bob S.
Messages: 143
Registered: October 2012
Location: Rapid City, SD
Karma: 2
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Kerry, I ran into the same problem while trying to glue fabric backed vinyl to my wooden window valances. I tried every kind of contact cement I could find and nothing held. I finally went to the 3M website and found a search tool that you type in the two materials you are trying to join and found a product that works well. It was the only product that 3M makes that was recommended for supported vinyl. I believe it was called 3M 80 Rubber and Vinyl Adhesive. I did the project last spring and it is holding well through the summer heat.
Bob and Pam Schilling
Rapid City, SD
"78 Royale
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| Re: [GMCnet] It whipped me. I give up [message #260138 is a reply to message #260133] |
Tue, 26 August 2014 17:30 |
kelvin
Messages: 608
Registered: February 2004
Location: Eugene, OR
Karma: 0
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On 8/26/2014 3:15 PM, Kerry Pinkerton wrote:
> Man I hate to fail but fail I have. While there are things I can do pretty well, apparently gluing vinyl to Masonite/FRP/etc, isn't one of them.
>
> Last year I made new headliner boards and covered them with white vinyl. Looked great. This year, in the heat of the summer some places started to
> sag off and eluded my attempts to re-glue them. this morning I visited an automotive upholstery place where I know the manager and asked him how he
> did it.
>
> " Spray contact cement like you get anywhere, wait till it's almost dry and put the two pieces together...that's it"
>
> So I go home, remove one of the Masonite panels and do just that only to have the vinyl wrinkle up where the glue was apparently too thick. I spread
> it as evenly as I could.
>
> So I've pulled it all down, ripped the old new vinyl off and am taking it to them. I just don't have time to screw with it any more.
>
> Man, I really hate to be be beaten by something. &^&$#@))(^%#
Did you use a good quality (3M or such) HIGH TEMP adhesive?
That High Temp part is pretty important...
I've glued 1/2" foam padding to the inside of a car roof and it stayed
put for a decade now.
Kelvin
'72 23' in Eugene, OR
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| Re: [GMCnet] It whipped me. I give up [message #260144 is a reply to message #260138] |
Tue, 26 August 2014 18:19 |
Keith V
Messages: 2337
Registered: March 2008
Location: Mounds View,MN
Karma: 0
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I've also heard you need high temp headliner adhesive. The normal contact cement will melt and fall apart.
The guy led you astray
Keith Vasilakes
Mounds View. MN
75 ex Royale GMC
ask me about MicroLevel
Cell, 763-732-3419
My427v8@hotmail.com
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| Re: It whipped me. I give up [message #260146 is a reply to message #260133] |
Tue, 26 August 2014 18:39 |
George Beckman
Messages: 1085
Registered: October 2008
Location: Colfax, CA
Karma: 11
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Kerry Pinkerton wrote on Tue, 26 August 2014 15:15Man I hate to fail but fail I have. While there are things I can do pretty well, apparently gluing vinyl to Masonite/FRP/etc, isn't one of them.
Man, I really hate to be be beaten by something. &^&$#@))(^%#
Sorry to hear your frustration. I am not a big fan of failure, either. Redoing a job is never fun. Third time is just plain frustrating.
Reminds me of the line from the Crosby, Stills and Nash song, "Southern Cross":
"And we never failed to fail, it was the easiest thing to do."
'74 Eleganza, SE, Howell + EBL
Best Wishes,
George
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| Re: It whipped me. I give up [message #260149 is a reply to message #260133] |
Tue, 26 August 2014 18:52 |
roy1
Messages: 2126
Registered: July 2004
Location: Minden nevada
Karma: 6
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know the feeling i have experienced the same thing but only on the repair of the section next to the refrigerator. I'm glad i only did that small section I used 3M 77 or something like that number. It came loose on the first hot day. From what I was told it needs to say it is for headliners on the adhesive can or don't use it.
Roy Keen
Minden,NV
76 X Glenbrook
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| Re: It whipped me. I give up [message #260156 is a reply to message #260133] |
Tue, 26 August 2014 19:34 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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I've used a variety of stuff over the past couple years. Dow contact cement as well as various super duper spray adhesives from Lowes. The latest one is from Permetex and it's not cheap. Obviously not heat resistant.
At this point I just don't have time to futz with it so I'm gonna throw money at the problem. I'll get some of that stuff Larry mentioned and try it on the 'bedroom' side walls.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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| Re: It whipped me. I give up [message #260183 is a reply to message #260133] |
Tue, 26 August 2014 23:00 |
Adrien G.
Messages: 474
Registered: May 2008
Location: Burns Flat, OK 73624
Karma: 1
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Kerry,
3M #08090 Super Trim Adhesive works well on fabric to plastic or wood. Will not hold (in heat) vinyl to plastic, for that use Weldwood Contact Adhesive
Landau Top & Trim.
3M 77 is used for DA sanders, to stick the sand paper to the pad and allow to peal off.
Now get to work, and do it right.LOL
Adrien & Jenny Genesoto
75 Glenbrook (26-3) Mods LS3.70 FD / Reaction Sys / 80mm Front&Intermidiate / Hydroboost / 16" Tires / Frame Rebuild / Interior Rebuild
Yuba City,Ca. Text 530-nine-3-three-3-nine-nine-6
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| Re: [GMCnet] It whipped me. I give up [message #260191 is a reply to message #260183] |
Wed, 27 August 2014 00:36 |
sgltrac
Messages: 2797
Registered: April 2011
Karma: 1
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When I was researching adhesives for adhering the various fabrics I selected for the interior of The Pig I ended up finding a water borne contact adhesive manufactured by I believe 3m which by description and open work time appeared ideal for working with large area fabrics. Problem was that the minimum purchase quantity was several gallons. I think 5-10 gallons and the stuff was not cheap. That and it required a specific gun for application. It was one of those things where if you were going to use the material on a commercial volume it might be a no brainer but on a one project basis made no sense.
So I abandoned that direction and purchased a sampling of all the 3m spray adhesives available at Home Depot ( which has all of the canned adhesives I can purchase from my autobody jobber) and did some testing. I tried wet on wet and direct mating as well as coat on each surface , allow flash of solvents out of adhesive then join as well as coat on each wait for flash then re apply quick grab coat then bond. The results varied by adhesive but was consistent. The loc-tite spray adhesive I tried was less than worthless. The various 3m adhesives which were rated for different weight materials were also a disappointment. The "super 77" seemed to perform the best as far as speed to hold, lack of bleed and strength. None of them however appeared to actually bond the various fabrics (and foam) to the abs and PVC panels. I asked the tech department at The Miami corp where I purchased my fabric materials for a recommendation for adhesive to bond their manufactured foam backed headliner to a PVC faced panel and they strongly suggested their proprietary spray adhesive which they sold in spray cans. When I asked them how many cans I would need they said " well that depends upon the installer". I said is there not a suggested square foot of coverage for the adhesive to give me an idea and they could not give me even a ball park. So I guessed on my own and then doubled the number of cans and ordered them. I had problems with their adhesive in that even when following the can directions the adhesive would not stay open long enough to apply the whole piece of fabric on each headliner backer. ( it was warm outside but not hot) So each one turned into a spray and apply, roll back n spray and apply to where each headliner panel would have to be sprayed and spread in thirds. This complicated the application immensely.
In the end I have had failures to various degrees with all of them. Especially in the presence of heat coupled with gravity. I think part of the issue is that If the adhesive permeates the fabric or foam backer of the fabric enough to get a tooth strong enough to hold it also will bleed and blemish the visible side of the fabric. Or clamp the foam making the fabric on the surface not uniform.
I still wonder how the gun applied water based adhesive might have worked.
Maybe ask the professionals (after they are finished) and then enlighten us Kerry.
Todd Sullivan
Sully
77 royale
Seattle
> On Aug 26, 2014, at 9:00 PM, Adrien Genesoto wrote:
>
> Kerry,
>
> 3M #08090 Super Trim Adhesive works well on fabric to plastic or wood. Will not hold (in heat) vinyl to plastic, for that use Weldwood Contact
> Adhesive
> Landau Top & Trim.
>
> 3M 77 is used for DA sanders, to stick the sand paper to the pad and allow to peal off.
>
> Now get to work, and do it right.LOL
> --
> ”When we avoid the mistakes we might have made, we sometimes make the mistakes that we might have avoided.”
>
>
>
> Adrien & Jenny
> 75 Glenbrook
> Yuba City,Ca.
> _______________________________________________
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Sully
77 Royale basket case.
Future motorhome land speed record holder(bucket list)
Seattle, Wa.
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| Re: [GMCnet] It whipped me. I give up [message #260198 is a reply to message #260138] |
Wed, 27 August 2014 05:52 |
Jim at the Co-op
Messages: 291
Registered: May 2014
Location: Orlando Florida
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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No need to reinvent the wheel, let me tell you the results we have found and how these things are done.
O. I would not use the foam backed automotive headliner material. The insidebof the coach gets hot enough to degrade so after an amount of time the foam falls apart and the material drops. We did that in the 90's but no longer. Today we use a felt backed "pleather" vinyl. The glue really bited the felt backing.
O. Adhesives are another thing we had to conquer. Water based contact adhesives do jot work--- sorry for you guys in California. Spray can ahdesives do not work, the quality adhesives must be sprayed, go to Harbour Freight and get a $15 hvlp gun, get a 5 gallon pail od DAP brand "Weldwood" contact adhesive--can't buy it inCalifornia. It is a laquer based contact adhesive that really works. If you do it wright, you willc use most of the 5gallons on the headliner. I call the stuff "tune dip" if you remember Roger Rabbit...
We use 1/8" cabinet grade luan plywood. The glue really bites into the pores of the wood. You can try and better this process, you will find so many unexpected results--- huh ust do it this way, it works.
We have Hazmat shipping permits, I'll check to see if we can ship this stuff.
There are several other things we do to cut down those unexpected results. Dont cut corners, use quality previously discovered processes and you will succed. Solo new ideas and expect to have issues, no need to take those resks.
If you wanna know more on headliners let me know,
Jim Bounds
Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device
-------- Original message --------
From: Adrien Genesoto
Date: 08/27/2014 12:00 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] It whipped me. I give up
Kerry,
3M #08090 Super Trim Adhesive works well on fabric to plastic or wood. Will not hold (in heat) vinyl to plastic, for that use Weldwood Contact
Adhesive
Landau Top & Trim.
3M 77 is used for DA sanders, to stick the sand paper to the pad and allow to peal off.
Now get to work, and do it right.LOL
--
”When we avoid the mistakes we might have made, we sometimes make the mistakes that we might have avoided.”
Adrien & Jenny
75 Glenbrook
Yuba City,Ca.
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| Re: [GMCnet] It whipped me. I give up [message #260199 is a reply to message #260138] |
Wed, 27 August 2014 06:18 |
Jim at the Co-op
Messages: 291
Registered: May 2014
Location: Orlando Florida
Karma: 2
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Sorry, I am doing this post on my phone, fogot a few things.
The "Weldwood" contact adhesive is called --landau top adhesive because its ror exterior vinyl tops, has a high temp range release, I've found anything less than that and the headliner matrrial wi 'll l drop. Its all about grip and adhesion, you need fat, deep pores for the adhesive to grab. Slick base materials do not offer enough bite surface. There is tensil strengh of the materials involved here. Constant pressure to pull the materials apart created by the mass of the outer material is the thing. Also using easily available off shelf materials that is easy to work. Insulation "R" factor also enters in to building a headliner. We use chrome mylar 2row bubble foil insulation material backing each panel.
All this and more has been understood with various levels of these issues addressed in restorations. Time is $, I cannot afford to "try" something, doing something twice is more than twice expensive. If you wanna play with materials and have fun finding the good and bad about materials know you will probably spend more $. Just the way discover is...
Jim Bounds
Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device
-------- Original message --------
From: Adrien Genesoto
Date: 08/27/2014 12:00 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] It whipped me. I give up
Kerry,
3M #08090 Super Trim Adhesive works well on fabric to plastic or wood. Will not hold (in heat) vinyl to plastic, for that use Weldwood Contact
Adhesive
Landau Top & Trim.
3M 77 is used for DA sanders, to stick the sand paper to the pad and allow to peal off.
Now get to work, and do it right.LOL
--
”When we avoid the mistakes we might have made, we sometimes make the mistakes that we might have avoided.”
Adrien & Jenny
75 Glenbrook
Yuba City,Ca.
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| Re: It whipped me. I give up [message #260201 is a reply to message #260133] |
Wed, 27 August 2014 06:55 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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Thanks Jim, the guy told me it was a DAP Weldwood product they get in 5 gallon pails. It looked and smelled like the Lowes stuff and they do spray it but it must be a different product. They've been in business for 30+ years and have a good reputation so I'm sure they use the same stuff. They did a vinyl top on my 73 Imperial a few years back. I'm taking the Masonite panels to him this morning and will get more details. He want to do a test on my base material (Masonite). He did say that the Masonite needed to be scuffed up with sandpaper or the material wouldn't stick.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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| Re: [GMCnet] It whipped me. I give up [message #260216 is a reply to message #260201] |
Wed, 27 August 2014 09:50 |
emerystora
Messages: 4442
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 13
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In 1998 I removed the ceiling panels and made new ones from 1/8" tempered Maisonite. I purchased cloth back vinyl wallpaper with a pebbled texture (commercial grade in 54" width ). First i brushed on a wall paper primer and then I used a commercial wall paper paste that is designed for use with cloth backed materials. This is a water cleanable thick paste.
It has been in for 16 years now with no separating or peeling and still looks great.
Emery Stora
77 Kingsley
Frederick. CO
> On Aug 27, 2014, at 7:55 AM, Kerry Pinkerton wrote:
>
> Thanks Jim, the guy told me it was a DAP Weldwood product they get in 5 gallon pails. It looked and smelled like the Lowes stuff and they do spray it
> but it must be a different product. They've been in business for 30+ years and have a good reputation so I'm sure they use the same stuff. They did a
> vinyl top on my 73 Imperial a few years back. I'm taking the Masonite panels to him this morning and will get more details. He want to do a test on
> my base material (Masonite). He did say that the Masonite needed to be scuffed up with sandpaper or the material wouldn't stick.
> --
> Kerry Pinkerton
>
> North Alabama, near Huntsville,
>
> 77 Eleganza II, "The Lady", 403CI, Manny Brakes, 1 ton, tranny also a 76 Eleganza to be re-bodied as an Art Deco car hauler
> _______________________________________________
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> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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| Re: [GMCnet] It whipped me. I give up [message #260217 is a reply to message #260216] |
Wed, 27 August 2014 09:59 |
Jim at the Co-op
Messages: 291
Registered: May 2014
Location: Orlando Florida
Karma: 2
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Yes, that's the stuff, I think you will need to take a bolt sander with 80
grit to create a bite surface. There are not enough pores on that slick
material. Do that and the "tune dip" will stick
Good luck,
Jim Bounds
-------------------------------
On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 10:50 AM, Emery Stora wrote:
> In 1998 I removed the ceiling panels and made new ones from 1/8" tempered
> Maisonite. I purchased cloth back vinyl wallpaper with a pebbled texture
> (commercial grade in 54" width ). First i brushed on a wall paper primer
> and then I used a commercial wall paper paste that is designed for use with
> cloth backed materials. This is a water cleanable thick paste.
>
> It has been in for 16 years now with no separating or peeling and still
> looks great.
>
> Emery Stora
> 77 Kingsley
> Frederick. CO
>
>> On Aug 27, 2014, at 7:55 AM, Kerry Pinkerton
> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks Jim, the guy told me it was a DAP Weldwood product they get in 5
> gallon pails. It looked and smelled like the Lowes stuff and they do spray
> it
>> but it must be a different product. They've been in business for 30+
> years and have a good reputation so I'm sure they use the same stuff. They
> did a
>> vinyl top on my 73 Imperial a few years back. I'm taking the Masonite
> panels to him this morning and will get more details. He want to do a test
> on
>> my base material (Masonite). He did say that the Masonite needed to be
> scuffed up with sandpaper or the material wouldn't stick.
>> --
>> Kerry Pinkerton
>>
>> North Alabama, near Huntsville,
>>
>> 77 Eleganza II, "The Lady", 403CI, Manny Brakes, 1 ton, tranny also a 76
> Eleganza to be re-bodied as an Art Deco car hauler
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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| Re: It whipped me. I give up [message #260221 is a reply to message #260204] |
Wed, 27 August 2014 10:29 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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Senior Member |
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wally wrote on Wed, 27 August 2014 07:37These guys have Weldwood DAP HHR landau top adhesive in gallon size and a deal on hazmat shipping with Spee-Dee delivery service
http://www.rochfordsupply.com/shop/Adhesives_and_Sprays/Bulk_Adhesives/Weldwood_Contact_Adhesive/index.html
Thanks Wally. That is the EXACT stuff that Rods Customs uses and he sold me a gallon. It keeps as long as it's sealed up and they just use a cheap spray gun. He did a sample on my Masonite that I'd roughed up with a DA sander and it WON'T come off. Apparently the glue is the secret. Since I don't have enough of the vinyl I had to redo everything, I'm still going to let them do it. 10 yards of vinyl and labor on my cut to fit Masonite. $300 out the door.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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| Re: It whipped me. I give up [message #260223 is a reply to message #260221] |
Wed, 27 August 2014 10:46 |
midlf
Messages: 2212
Registered: July 2007
Location: SE Wisc. (Palmyra)
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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Kerry Pinkerton wrote on Wed, 27 August 2014 10:29wally wrote on Wed, 27 August 2014 07:37These guys have Weldwood DAP HHR landau top adhesive in gallon size and a deal on hazmat shipping with Spee-Dee delivery service
http://www.rochfordsupply.com/shop/Adhesives_and_Sprays/Bulk_Adhesives/Weldwood_Contact_Adhesive/index.html
Thanks Wally. That is the EXACT stuff that Rods Customs uses and he sold me a gallon. It keeps as long as it's sealed up and they just use a cheap spray gun. He did a sample on my Masonite that I'd roughed up with a DA sander and it WON'T come off. Apparently the glue is the secret. Since I don't have enough of the vinyl I had to redo everything, I'm still going to let them do it. 10 yards of vinyl and labor on my cut to fit Masonite. $300 out the door.
It's a wise man who knows how to pick his battles and knows what battles to pay someone else to fight! <GRIN>
Steve Southworth
1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
Palmyra WI
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