Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » My update and education on the electrical system
My update and education on the electrical system [message #259173] |
Sun, 17 August 2014 20:20 |
thorndike
Messages: 406 Registered: January 2011 Location: Conifer, Colorado
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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First off, let me apologize for the quality of my previous posts. We have our first big trip coming up and along with prepping the coach and looking for work, I have learned how much I didn't know about the GMC. I've been juggling several projects on the GMC at once, which has lead to some confusing communications from me. As I am getting things under control, my communication should be better. Bear with me.
Ok, my previous post about the PD9620 was probably a little confusing. So I spent a good bit of today crawling under the coach tracking down where the battery cables actually go. In the process I discovered black cables that were actually POSITIVE cables along with a bit of cable chaffing. None of the cables were chafed through yet, but it will be addressed in the near future.
I created a drawing of what I found:
http://i.imgur.com/84yKSzM.jpg
On the right hand side of the circle (I forgot the name of the device that represents.) you will see the starting battery and circuit. All looks ok now especially since I replaced the black positive cable with a proper red one.
To the left you will see the generator and house circuits. The first battery to the left is in the front of the coach along side the starter battery and would be the house battery on my Royale. At the generator end I have the generator battery and the PD9620. On my Royale, the original converter and 12v fuse box were at the back, so the PD9620 is also located there. What created my confusion about the PD9620 was that the positive terminals on the generator battery in back and the house battery in the front are connected together feeding the PD9620. This prompted my question about how the unit could charge two distinct batteries. By the way, the connection of the positive side of the batteries looked like this:
http://i.imgur.com/OvMMYDk.jpg
I have cleaned that connection so there is no more corrosion bursting through the tape.
I purchased two 6v golf cart batteries today and discovered that there is not enough room up front for them, so I started thinking about putting them by the generator and feeding the house and generator off of this bank. This would give the PD9620 a common set of batteries to work with and I assume give me plenty of juice to camp with. Does this sound like the best way to go? If I did this and left the cable attached to the device whose name I forgot, would that still give me the power boost from the dash switch?
Robert Peesel
1976 Royale 26'
Side Dry Bath
Conifer, Colorado
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Re: My update and education on the electrical system [message #259180 is a reply to message #259173] |
Sun, 17 August 2014 21:21 |
Steve
Messages: 506 Registered: September 2013 Location: East Greenville, Pa
Karma: 1
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Robert,
It sounds like you are getting it straightened out. Like my 78 Royale, you actually have two house batteries, one up front and one in the rear near the generator. They are wired together.. The electrical experts here can tell you why it is not good to wire them in that way but I believe it is or was common practice in the RV industry. I think best practice would be to keep the two 6 volts together in either the front or rear. As you indicated there is not enough room in the front, you can put them both back near the generator. They do make trays that would allow you to put three batteries up front.
When I replaced my house battery with a 12 volt marine battery I put it in the rear and currently have no house battery up front. If you do that, make sure to carefully insulate the front house positive cable as it will be hot and you don't want it to ground or short circuit. Others will chime in and let me know if that is ok to do.
The chaffing is dangerous and should be addressed as it has been known to cause coach fires. Don't let that go too long.
Do you have an APC cable on your alternator. If not, that should be done immediately. If you don't know about the APC cable, we can fill in more details. They are very inexpensive and can protect you from serious electrical damage or fire. Good luck on your first adventure in the GMC.
1978 GMC Royal
Eastern Pennslyvania
1968 Chevrolet C20 396 Camper Special
1969 Chevrolet C20 Camper Special
1985 Buick Electra Park Avenue
1992 Camaro 25th Anniversary Heretage Edition Black
[Updated on: Sun, 17 August 2014 21:23] Report message to a moderator
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Re: My update and education on the electrical system [message #259181 is a reply to message #259180] |
Sun, 17 August 2014 21:28 |
thorndike
Messages: 406 Registered: January 2011 Location: Conifer, Colorado
Karma: 0
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Steve,
Yes, I have the APC cable. It is cheap insurance!
I am wondering what I will really be losing if I remove the house battery from the front and only use the two 6v in the back. If I do that, I assume I gain the charging benefits from the converter as the batteries will be identical in size and type.
The chafing is slight at the moment. My plan will be to run the cables through a piece of conduit to eliminate any future problems.
Bob
Robert Peesel
1976 Royale 26'
Side Dry Bath
Conifer, Colorado
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Re: My update and education on the electrical system [message #259188 is a reply to message #259173] |
Sun, 17 August 2014 21:46 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547 Registered: March 2007 Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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thorndike wrote on Sun, 17 August 2014 21:20First off, let me apologize for the quality of my previous posts. We have our first big trip coming up and along with prepping the coach and looking for work, I have learned how much I didn't know about the GMC. I've been juggling several projects on the GMC at once, which has lead to some confusing communications from me. As I am getting things under control, my communication should be better. Bear with me.
Ok, my previous post about the PD9620 was probably a little confusing. So I spent a good bit of today crawling under the coach tracking down where the battery cables actually go. In the process I discovered black cables that were actually POSITIVE cables along with a bit of cable chaffing. None of the cables were chafed through yet, but it will be addressed in the near future.
I created a drawing of what I found: <pictures deleted>
On the right hand side of the circle (I forgot the name of the device that represents.) you will see the starting battery and circuit. All looks ok now especially since I replaced the black positive cable with a proper red one.
To the left you will see the generator and house circuits. The first battery to the left is in the front of the coach along side the starter battery and would be the house battery on my Royale. At the generator end I have the generator battery and the PD9620. On my Royale, the original converter and 12v fuse box were at the back, so the PD9620 is also located there. What created my confusion about the PD9620 was that the positive terminals on the generator battery in back and the house battery in the front are connected together feeding the PD9620. This prompted my question about how the unit could charge two distinct batteries. By the way, the connection of the positive side of the batteries looked like this:
I have cleaned that connection so there is no more corrosion bursting through the tape.
I purchased two 6v golf cart batteries today and discovered that there is not enough room up front for them, so I started thinking about putting them by the generator and feeding the house and generator off of this bank. This would give the PD9620 a common set of batteries to work with and I assume give me plenty of juice to camp with. Does this sound like the best way to go? If I did this and left the cable attached to the device whose name I forgot, would that still give me the power boost from the dash switch?
Bob,
I don't doubt that the drawing (deleted) is accurate, but if it is, I already see about three problems.
All are easily remedied, and I would go on, but it is late here and I am tired.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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Re: My update and education on the electrical system [message #259190 is a reply to message #259188] |
Sun, 17 August 2014 21:54 |
thorndike
Messages: 406 Registered: January 2011 Location: Conifer, Colorado
Karma: 0
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Matt,
If you see something questionable, please let me know. I will review the drawing tomorrow to make sure that I recreated it correctly, but I don't see anything incorrect from the as-is condition. That doesn't mean that I didn't create it understandably, so let me know whatever you see!
Bob
Matt Colie wrote on Sun, 17 August 2014 22:46
I don't doubt that the drawing (deleted) is accurate, but if it is, I already see about three problems.
All are easily remedied, and I would go on, but it is late here and I am tired.
Matt
Robert Peesel
1976 Royale 26'
Side Dry Bath
Conifer, Colorado
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Re: [GMCnet] My update and education on the electrical system [message #259210 is a reply to message #259190] |
Mon, 18 August 2014 05:26 |
Mr ERFisher
Messages: 7117 Registered: August 2005
Karma: 2
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This is the drawing use
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/how-to-check-out-your-own-electrics-gnc/p49207-isolate-charging-sourc.html
Erf
On Sunday, August 17, 2014, Robert Peesel wrote:
> Matt,
>
> If you see something questionable, please let me know. I will review the
> drawing tomorrow to make sure that I recreated it correctly, but I don't see
> anything incorrect from the as-is condition. That doesn't mean that I
> didn't create it understandably, so let me know whatever you see!
>
> Bob
>
>
>
>
> Matt Colie wrote on Sun, 17 August 2014 22:46
>> I don't doubt that the drawing (deleted) is accurate, but if it is, I
> already see about three problems.
>> All are easily remedied, and I would go on, but it is late here and I am
> tired.
>>
>> Matt
>
>
> --
> Robert Peesel
>
> 1976 Royale 26'
>
> Side Dry Bath
>
> Sterling, Va
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
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Re: [GMCnet] My update and education on the electrical system [message #259232 is a reply to message #259221] |
Mon, 18 August 2014 09:37 |
k2gkk
Messages: 4452 Registered: November 2009
Karma: -8
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Senior Member |
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I looked at those drawings and believe that errors are present there.
The following is MY understanding and the way I have my coach set up.
The engine alternator SHOULD be shown as connected to the center terminal of the isolator. Each of the two "outer" terminals of the isolator goes to one battery (or bank); engine or house.
Each RED lead of the combiner goes to one of the batteries (banks) and the BLACK lead goes to ground.
The combiner simply compares the voltages present at the two batteries and if one is higher than the other (signifies that this battery is being charged, no matter the source), and connects both together for charging. This allows BOTH batteries to receive charging, no matter whether the source is the engine alternator or the "converter" which is really nothing more than a separate 120 VAC to 13 VDC power supply.
(Not an "engineer" but 35+ years as an electronic technician.)
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ D C "Mac" Macdonald ~ ~~
~ ~ Amateur Radio - K2GKK ~ ~
~ ~ USAF and FAA, Retired ~ ~
~ ~ ~ Oklahoma City, OK ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ ~ "The Money Pit" ~ ~ ~~
~ ~ ~ ~ TZE166V101966 ~ ~ ~ ~
~ ~ ~ '76 ex-Palm Beach ~ ~ ~
~~ k2gkk + hotmail dot com ~~
~ www.gmcmhphotos.com/okclb ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
______________
*[ ]~~~[][ ][|\
*--OO--[]---O-*
> Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 07:00:42 -0600
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> From: rpeesel@gmail.com
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] My update and education on the electrical system
>
> I will look again, but I have not seen anything that looks anything like the combiners shown on this drawing. Were these part of the original build,
> or have they been added after?
>
>
>
>
> Mr ERFisher wrote on Mon, 18 August 2014 06:26
>> This is the drawing use
>> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/how-to-check-out-your-own-electrics-gnc/p49207-isolate-charging-sourc.html
>> Erf
>
>
> --
> Robert Peesel
>
> 1976 Royale 26'
>
> Side Dry Bath
>
> Sterling, VA
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Re: My update and education on the electrical system [message #259236 is a reply to message #259173] |
Mon, 18 August 2014 11:41 |
midlf
Messages: 2212 Registered: July 2007 Location: SE Wisc. (Palmyra)
Karma: 1
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If the device whose name you forgot is mounted near the isolator and is round with two large terminals and two small terminals then it is the boost solenoid relay. The round thing on your drawing is located in the correct spot for a boost solenoid. Based on your drawings you do not have a combiner installed. combiners are not OEM, all are after market installs.
Since all the loads for the house battery are fed from the back it makes sense to have the house batteries back there.
What I do not see on your diagram is the battery isolator. This should be a finned device with three terminals mounted up high under the right hand hood. It takes the output of the alternator and lets the alternator charge both engine and house batteries without them being connected together.
Steve Southworth
1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
Palmyra WI
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Re: [GMCnet] My update and education on the electrical system [message #259242 is a reply to message #259232] |
Mon, 18 August 2014 12:00 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726 Registered: March 2004 Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Mac,
Some combiners may compare the voltage of the batteries to decide when to
switch, as you describe. But the Yandina's, which I believe are most
common for GMC's, only sense the voltage on each side and close the relay
when either side is at about 13.2 VDC or above. That subtle difference is
important since in the first situation less than fully charged batteries
could be combined, to the detriment of the system. Yandina's approach
ensures that at least one battery is already charged before the other is
picked up -- and a weak one will be dropped if it pulls down the charged
one below 13.2 VDC.
I've seen that condition occur: With a weak, depleted chassis battery, and
low house batteries, when shore power was connected, the combiner would
close for only the 30 second built in delay before opening again because
the depleted chassis battery pulled the house batteries below 13.2 VDC. As
soon as the converter was able to build the house batteries back up, the
combiner would re-close for another 30 second period. That cycle repeated
several times before the chassis battery was charged enough for the
converter to keep up with its demand.
Ken H.
On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 10:37 AM, D C _Mac_ Macdonald
wrote:
...
> The combiner simply compares the voltages present at the two batteries and
> if one is higher than the other (signifies that this battery is being
> charged, no matter the source), and connects both together for charging.
> This allows BOTH batteries to receive charging, no matter whether the
> source is the engine alternator or the "converter" which is really nothing
> more than a separate 120 VAC to 13 VDC power supply.
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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Re: [GMCnet] My update and education on the electrical system [message #259296 is a reply to message #259232] |
Mon, 18 August 2014 20:50 |
Mr ERFisher
Messages: 7117 Registered: August 2005
Karma: 2
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On Monday, August 18, 2014, D C _Mac_ Macdonald wrote:
> I looked at those drawings and believe that errors are present there.
> Not errors.
It shows options
The following is MY understanding and the way I have my coach set up.
>
> The engine alternator SHOULD be shown as connected to the center terminal
> of the isolator. Each of the two "outer" terminals of the isolator goes to
> one battery (or bank); engine or house.
That is the most common way
Also works the other way
>
> Each RED lead of the combiner goes to one of the batteries (banks) and the
> BLACK lead goes to ground.
>
> The combiner simply compares the voltages present at the two batteries and
> if one is higher than the other (signifies that this battery is being
> charged, no matter the source), and connects both together for charging.
> This allows BOTH batteries to receive charging, no matter whether the
> source is the engine alternator or the "converter" which is really nothing
> more than a separate 120 VAC to 13 VDC power supply.
>
> (Not an "engineer" but 35+ years as an electronic technician.)
>
> ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
> ~~ ~ D C "Mac" Macdonald ~ ~~
> ~ ~ Amateur Radio - K2GKK ~ ~
> ~ ~ USAF and FAA, Retired ~ ~
> ~ ~ ~ Oklahoma City, OK ~ ~ ~
> ~~ ~ ~ "The Money Pit" ~ ~ ~~
> ~ ~ ~ ~ TZE166V101966 ~ ~ ~ ~
> ~ ~ ~ '76 ex-Palm Beach ~ ~ ~
> ~~ k2gkk + hotmail dot com ~~
> ~ www.gmcmhphotos.com/okclb ~
> ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
> ______________
> *[ ]~~~[][ ][|\
> *--OO--[]---O-*
>
>
>> Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2014 07:00:42 -0600
>> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
>> From: rpeesel@gmail.com
>> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] My update and education on the electrical system
>>
>> I will look again, but I have not seen anything that looks anything like
> the combiners shown on this drawing. Were these part of the original build,
>> or have they been added after?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Mr ERFisher wrote on Mon, 18 August 2014 06:26
>>> This is the drawing use
>>>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/how-to-check-out-your-own-electrics-gnc/p49207-isolate-charging-sourc.html
>>> Erf
>>
>>
>> --
>> Robert Peesel
>>
>> 1976 Royale 26'
>>
>> Side Dry Bath
>>
>> Sterling, VA
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
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Re: [GMCnet] My update and education on the electrical system [message #259298 is a reply to message #259290] |
Mon, 18 August 2014 21:04 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726 Registered: March 2004 Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Bob,
I see you've begun to label you wiring. Since I'm famous (or perhaps more
accurately, notorious) for having labelled everything in sight under my
hoods, you might like to know what I use to make those labels. I use
Brother label makers with TZ tapes. Those tapes are available in a wide
range of tape and lettering colors. The cartridges in which the tape is
delivered have the base substrate, an ink ribbon, and a transparent overlay
which is applied after the print is thermally transferred. That
combination yields a very durable label. The print is protected by the
transparent layer; I've never had one become illegible..
While the labels cannot stand withstand extremely high temperatures, I've
had no trouble with them in the GMC's engine compartment. When I've tested
them with a heat gun, subjecting them to extreme temperatures causes them
to shrivel and shrink -- but the text stays legible until the final melting
occurs.
While most of my labels are made from the ordinary tape available at office
supply stores, there is a slightly more expensive industrial quality
available with more durable adhesive. While I've had no adhesive problems,
most of my wire labels are "flags" -- the label is wrapped around the wire
so that adhesive is applied to adhesive. Any clean dry flat surface holds
the labels "forever".
Shamefully, despite my education, I'm not conscientious about marking up
wiring diagrams with my modifications. The wire labels are my (and any
SO's) only salvation when something malfunctions.
JWID
Ken H.
On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 9:36 PM, Robert Peesel wrote:
> After all the help, I wanted to show some pictures of the confusing mess
> under my hood and why I am trying to straighten it out. My cable-management
> OCD is driving me nuts working on all of this.
>
> Just so everyone knows, I am cleaning all connections as I get to them. I
> am loving how my dremel makes cleaning these connections so easy.
>
> Also, as I dig deeper into this renovation, I am getting quite concerned
> about the amount of rust I am finding. I think it is strange how the
> boost
> solenoid relay is so rusted.
>
> I am also a little worried about what I will find when I unwrap the black
> electrical tape from the positive cables attached to the battery isolator.
>
> Pictures are here:
> http://i.imgur.com/Tple4wM.jpg
> http://i.imgur.com/yeNEjHU.jpg
> http://i.imgur.com/cpkPQRo.jpg
> http://i.imgur.com/kxss4S9.jpg
> http://i.imgur.com/T1ta5pt.jpg
> http://i.imgur.com/yXgoWag.jpg
>
> I can't wait to have this all straightened out so I can understand it a
> bit better.
>
> Bob
>
> --
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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Re: My update and education on the electrical system [message #259311 is a reply to message #259173] |
Tue, 19 August 2014 01:01 |
appie
Messages: 902 Registered: April 2013 Location: denmark
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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Bob I think it does not look so bad
You have the original isolater, witch is fine. Just check that it works ok
The wires with the tape should be replaced with new, it look like they have rubbing on the isolater.
Your booster is rosted on the outside, as long as there are no holes and it works, I would just clean it up
Keep up the good work
Appie
eleganza 76 "Olga" now sadly sold
6 wheel discbrake
Quadrabags
Springfield stage 2 462 olds
Manny tranny
( pictures at http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g6489-olga.html
Fulltiming in Europe july 2014 til july 2016
Denmark
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Re: My update and education on the electrical system [message #259327 is a reply to message #259173] |
Tue, 19 August 2014 07:43 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412 Registered: May 2011 Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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Bob -
Lookin' good, but I see a lot of 'green groady grot' growing on some of the crimped - on connectors. I recommend you take each connector off one at a time and shine it. If the wire going into the crimp cuff is also green, cut it back to clean copper and crimp on another connector. If there isn't enough slack, replace the wire. It's a pain, but corrosion in those crimp-ons is simply a problem waiting until you're in a hurry to surface and bite you.
--johnny
'76 23' transmode norris
Braselton GA
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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Re: [GMCnet] My update and education on the electrical system [message #259329 is a reply to message #259292] |
Tue, 19 August 2014 07:43 |
powerjon
Messages: 2446 Registered: January 2004
Karma: 5
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Senior Member |
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We seem to be getting things somewhat confused here. We are tossing both words around in the same sentence and they are not the same item. What Bob is looking at is a battery isolator and not a combiner. They are 2 different animals that basically do the same thing but in a different manner. Which is best to use is a personal choice? I use a 3 terminal isolator for the 3 different battery banks that I have.
http://gmcmotorhome.info/batt.htm
and
http://www.yandina.com/combInfo.htm
JR Wright
78 Buskirk Stretch
75 Avion
Michigan
On Aug 18, 2014, at 9:42 PM, gene Fisher wrote:
> The combiners have changed shape and size several times.
> Erf
>
> On Monday, August 18, 2014, Robert Peesel wrote:
>
>> I will look again, but I have not seen anything that looks anything like
>> the combiners shown on this drawing. Were these part of the original build,
>> or have they been added after?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Mr ERFisher wrote on Mon, 18 August 2014 06:26
>>> This is the drawing use
>>>
>> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/how-to-check-out-your-own-electrics-gnc/p49207-isolate-charging-sourc.html
>>> Erf
>>
>>
>> --
>> Robert Peesel
>>
>> 1976 Royale 26'
>>
>> Side Dry Bath
>>
>> Sterling, Va
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>
>
>
> --
> Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
> “Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
> -------
> http://gmcmotorhome.info/
> Alternator Protection Cable
> http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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J.R. Wright
GMC GreatLaker
GMC Eastern States
GMCMI
78 30' Buskirk Stretch
75 Avion Under Reconstruction
Michigan
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Re: My update and education on the electrical system [message #259337 is a reply to message #259327] |
Tue, 19 August 2014 08:38 |
thorndike
Messages: 406 Registered: January 2011 Location: Conifer, Colorado
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Johnny,
I understand completely. I am polishing each connection as I touch it.
Bob
Johnny Bridges wrote on Tue, 19 August 2014 08:43Bob -
Lookin' good, but I see a lot of 'green groady grot' growing on some of the crimped - on connectors. I recommend you take each connector off one at a time and shine it. If the wire going into the crimp cuff is also green, cut it back to clean copper and crimp on another connector. If there isn't enough slack, replace the wire. It's a pain, but corrosion in those crimp-ons is simply a problem waiting until you're in a hurry to surface and bite you.
--johnny
'76 23' transmode norris
Braselton GA
Robert Peesel
1976 Royale 26'
Side Dry Bath
Conifer, Colorado
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