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Re: [GMCnet] Relay races [message #258615 is a reply to message #258611] |
Tue, 12 August 2014 17:17 |
mercdave
Messages: 45 Registered: May 2014
Karma: 2
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It was not your issue, it was the parts store's issue. The symptoms you had on the second relay (87a 87b connected internally, open circuit in rest position) are normal for some relays. The relay you need is usually used with a reversible motor, where you need to connect a ground circuit back through the relay. Sometimes the little wiring diagram on the side of the relay helps.
Dave in Lynnwood, Wa. (the lurker one)
'73 23
'73 Super Beetle convertible
'82 Mercedes 300CD
'95 Mercedes E300D
----- Original Message -----
> Ok, so everyone needs to know their limitations and mine is electronics.
> Poor Ken Henderson has been very patient but probably rues the day he
> became
> my friend. :blush: 8o :lol:
>
> I'm going to dual electric fuel pumps and have been talking to Ken about how
> to wire everything up. Finally thought I understood everything and
> started to wire things up. Installed the low oil pressure switch and the
> relay to provide power when the motor is being cranked OR running with oil
> pressure...otherwise no power and the pumps shut off. This first relay is
> called the Pump Power Relay.
>
> That relay output feeds another relay is double pole and provides power to
> one pump or the other based on the 12V signal from the tank selector
> switch. This is called the Pump Selector Relay and is a 5 pin relay. Ok, I
> got this. Before I wire everything up permanent, I wire up the power
> relay and verify it works. Yep, as soon as the engine starts cranking I got
> voltage. So let's check the other relay...humm no power on either of the
> two output terminals. WTH! (85 to ground 12V from Battery to 30) Should
> have 12V on one of the 87 output terminals. Nothing Double check. Triple
> check. No output voltage on either of the output terminals (87 and
> 87A)*(&%%^)
>
> Quadruple check. DAmn. Ok, let's apply 12V to the trigger connection to see
> if that side of the coil works. Relay does not click. Still nothing.
> **&^%%
>
> So another call to Ken and we agree the NEW relay is defunct. At least I'm
> not nuts.
>
> Picked up another relay when I was in town today. Wired it up. Nothing on
> either of the 87s. WHAT! So I apply the trigger voltage to 86 and hear
> the relay click. Check for volts on the 87 terminals. Yep got it on 87A..
> 87B should be cold. WHAT! It's got 12V too. That won't work! It has to
> switch. Pull the trigger voltage and both 87's loose power.
>
> Call Ken back and walk him through what I did and we agree this SECOND NEW
> RELAY (one from my son at Advance and the other from OReillys)is also bad.
> What are the odds of that???
>
> Called my neighbor buddy Beau and ask if he happens to have a 5 pin relay and
> he says he does and will bring it over. Works fine and as expected.
> Wasted the better part of a day futzing with bad new components.
>
> The good news is that I now have a very sound understanding of how relays
> should and should not behave and how to wire them up. And of course it's
> now raining and 300% humidity and 95 degrees so I'm working on another
> project the rest of the day. ))#$^%!
> --
> Kerry Pinkerton
>
> North Alabama, near Huntsville,
>
> 77 Eleganza II, "The Lady", 403CI, Manny Brakes, 1 ton, tranny also a 76
> Eleganza to be re-bodied as an Art Deco car hauler
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
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Dave L
Lynnwood, Wa.
1976 GMC 26' Edgemonte Rear Twin
1973 GMC 23' Rear-Ended, Totaled
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Re: Relay races [message #258624 is a reply to message #258623] |
Tue, 12 August 2014 18:29 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565 Registered: July 2012 Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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Senior Member |
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SteveW wrote on Tue, 12 August 2014 18:28...Are you eliminating the mechanical pump ??
yes
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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Re: Relay races [message #258639 is a reply to message #258611] |
Tue, 12 August 2014 20:48 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260 Registered: January 2004 Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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Kerry Pinkerton wrote on Tue, 12 August 2014 15:28Ok, so everyone needs to know their limitations and mine is electronics. Poor Ken Henderson has been very patient but probably rues the day he became my friend.
I'm going to dual electric fuel pumps and have been talking to Ken about how to wire everything up. Finally thought I understood everything and started to wire things up. Installed the low oil pressure switch and the relay to provide power when the motor is being cranked OR running with oil pressure...otherwise no power and the pumps shut off. This first relay is called the Pump Power Relay.
That relay output feeds another relay is double pole and provides power to one pump or the other based on the 12V signal from the tank selector switch. This is called the Pump Selector Relay and is a 5 pin relay. Ok, I got this. Before I wire everything up permanent, I wire up the power relay and verify it works. Yep, as soon as the engine starts cranking I got voltage. So let's check the other relay...humm no power on either of the two output terminals. WTH! (85 to ground 12V from Battery to 30) Should have 12V on one of the 87 output terminals. Nothing Double check. Triple check. No output voltage on either of the output terminals (87 and 87A)*(&%%^)
Quadruple check. DAmn. Ok, let's apply 12V to the trigger connection to see if that side of the coil works. Relay does not click. Still nothing. **&^%%
So another call to Ken and we agree the NEW relay is defunct. At least I'm not nuts.
Picked up another relay when I was in town today. Wired it up. Nothing on either of the 87s. WHAT! So I apply the trigger voltage to 86 and hear the relay click. Check for volts on the 87 terminals. Yep got it on 87A.. 87B should be cold. WHAT! It's got 12V too. That won't work! It has to switch. Pull the trigger voltage and both 87's loose power.
Call Ken back and walk him through what I did and we agree this SECOND NEW RELAY (one from my son at Advance and the other from OReillys)is also bad. What are the odds of that???
Called my neighbor buddy Beau and ask if he happens to have a 5 pin relay and he says he does and will bring it over. Works fine and as expected. Wasted the better part of a day futzing with bad new components.
The good news is that I now have a very sound understanding of how relays should and should not behave and how to wire them up. And of course it's now raining and 300% humidity and 95 degrees so I'm working on another project the rest of the day. ))#$^%!
Even though all those relays look the same, there are type 1 and type 2 relays with different terminal functions. Type 2 is the most common but don't be foolled !
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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Re: Relay races [message #258668 is a reply to message #258611] |
Wed, 13 August 2014 07:12 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412 Registered: May 2011 Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Always test electro-mechanical components before install. The advent of manufacturing via the Heathen Chinee is the infant mortality on components has increased drastically, particularly electro-mechanical ones.
Also, include in your tool kit a sack of clip leads from Radio Shack (the kids in the studio swipe them and call them 'roach clips', no idea why). Then you can check relays, electric valves, solenoids, and the like by simply clipping them to the chassis hot point or any 12v line inside and seeing that they operate properly.
--johnny
'76 23' transmode norris
Braselton GA
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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Re: Relay races [message #258670 is a reply to message #258611] |
Wed, 13 August 2014 07:26 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565 Registered: July 2012 Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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Senior Member |
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My education continues. The last 'bad' relay isn't bad at all just very poorly labeled. The package says "Heavy Duty Relay 12V". The only think on the back of the blister pack is that the two output pins are labeled 87 & 87 not 87 & 87A. HOWEVER on the top of the relay box depressed into the plastic, you can see that the relay is normally open and the two 87 outputs are tied together. Impossible to see without opening the package. So it's not bad, it's just wrong.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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Re: Relay races [message #258787 is a reply to message #258670] |
Wed, 13 August 2014 23:06 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260 Registered: January 2004 Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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Kerry Pinkerton wrote on Wed, 13 August 2014 06:26My education continues. The last 'bad' relay isn't bad at all just very poorly labeled. The package says "Heavy Duty Relay 12V". The only think on the back of the blister pack is that the two output pins are labeled 87 & 87 not 87 & 87A. HOWEVER on the top of the relay box depressed into the plastic, you can see that the relay is normally open and the two 87 outputs are tied together. Impossible to see without opening the package. So it's not bad, it's just wrong.
Kerry, as I was getting my mechanical engineering degree, I realized the the electrical engineering guys swung to a different drummer--more like Woodstock.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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Re: Relay races [message #258797 is a reply to message #258611] |
Thu, 14 August 2014 07:28 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412 Registered: May 2011 Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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Bob, Broadcast Engineers work in the only business where they pay us to remain childish and never grow up. It is best to watch us closely for aberrations :) My first Chief's position was ~~ 40 years ago, I am now totally deranged.
=--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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