| Ethanol separation? [message #257500] |
Fri, 01 August 2014 22:38  |
fred v
Messages: 999
Registered: April 2006
Location: pensacola, fl.
Karma: 0
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I keep hearing this phrase. They are saying that, over time, the ethanol will separate out from the gasoline and settle to the bottom of the tank. I am imagining this happening to my coach as it sits for long periods and when I crank it up I'm running on pure alcohol.
Is there any truth to this?
Fred V
'77 Royale RB 455
P'cola, Fl
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| Re: Ethanol separation? [message #257547 is a reply to message #257500] |
Sat, 02 August 2014 19:49  |
Chr$
Messages: 2690
Registered: January 2004
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Karma: 1
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the guy who comes up with an in-line separator for less than $300 will be worshipped my many...
-Chr$: Perpetual SmartAss
Scottsdale, AZ
77 Ex-Kingsley 455 SOLD!
2010 Nomad 24 Ft TT 390W PV W/MPPT, EV4010 and custom cargo door.
Photosite: Chrisc GMC:"It has Begun" TT: "The Other Woman"
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| Re: [GMCnet] Ethanol separation? [message #257550 is a reply to message #257532] |
Sat, 02 August 2014 20:26 |
fred v
Messages: 999
Registered: April 2006
Location: pensacola, fl.
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Thanks Emery. I understand it better now. Has anyone here had problems with this? Should I be worried about it? Should I be treating my tanks? Should I do the test?
emerystora wrote on Sat, 02 August 2014 13:31Fred
Here are just a couple of the many, many postings to the Internet on the subject.
http://www.lcbamarketing.com/phase_separation_in_ethanol_blen.htm
http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/beware-of-gasoline-phase-separation
Emery Stora
On Aug 1, 2014, at 9:39 PM, fred veenschoten wrote:
> I keep hearing this phrase. They are saying that, over time, the ethanol will separate out from the gasoline and settle to the bottom of the tank. I
> am imagining this happening to my coach as it sits for long periods and when I crank it up I'm running on pure alcohol.
>
> Is there any truth to this?
>
> --
> Fred V
> '77 Royale RB 455
> P'cola, Fl
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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Fred V
'77 Royale RB 455
P'cola, Fl
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| Re: Ethanol separation? [message #257554 is a reply to message #257547] |
Sat, 02 August 2014 22:23 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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Chr$ wrote on Sat, 02 August 2014 18:49the guy who comes up with an in-line separator for less than $300 will be worshipped my many...
And so will the guy who convinces GMC owners that ethanol is only a problem with grossly neglected fuel systems.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: Ethanol separation? [message #257648 is a reply to message #257554] |
Sun, 03 August 2014 16:41 |
Carl S.
Messages: 4186
Registered: January 2009
Location: Tucson, AZ.
Karma: 13
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Bob de Kruyff wrote on Sat, 02 August 2014 20:23Chr$ wrote on Sat, 02 August 2014 18:49the guy who comes up with an in-line separator for less than $300 will be worshipped my many...
And so will the guy who convinces GMC owners that ethanol is only a problem with grossly neglected fuel systems.
I don't know about that Bob. I have dropped my tanks, replaced all the fuel and vent hoses with barrier hose, replaced the vapor separator, added an electric booster pump, replaced the in-line filters (2),Eliminated the inlet filter in the carburetor, replaced the mechanical fuel pump, and installed a Gary Rockwell aluminum intake manifold. In other words, everything in the fuel system except the sending units/pickups (the fuel socks have been blown out), the charcoal canister, and the carburetor have been replaced. I would hardly call that a "grossly neglected fuel system", and I STILL have fuel starvation problems with ethanol fuel. Last year, in May, on a trip to San Antonio, I got ethanol free fuel in Las Cruces and the coach ran markedly Better with NO fuel starvation issues even when crossing the Guadalupe Mountains on the road between El Paso and Carlsbad. On our recent trip from Tucson to Show Low, via Globe and the Salt River Canyon, I had nothing but fuel related problems on every upgrade I encountered, even with fresh gas.
Carl Stouffer
'75 ex Palm Beach
Tucson, AZ.
Chuck Aulgur Reaction Arm Disc Brakes, Quadrabags, 3.70 LSD final drive, Lenzi knuckles/hubs, Dodge Truck 16" X 8" front wheels, Rear American Eagles, Solar battery charging. GMCSJ and GMCMI member
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| Re: Ethanol separation? [message #258162 is a reply to message #257500] |
Fri, 08 August 2014 07:56 |
fred v
Messages: 999
Registered: April 2006
Location: pensacola, fl.
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In thinking about this problem I came up with an idea. Since we have an air supply available would it be possible to tap into the fuel line and using the tank selector valve blow air bubbles into each tank to agitate the fuel? An electric fuel pump would be needed to prime the carb following this procedure.
Any thoughts?
Fred V
'77 Royale RB 455
P'cola, Fl
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| Re: Ethanol separation? [message #258190 is a reply to message #258162] |
Fri, 08 August 2014 14:30 |
George Beckman
Messages: 1085
Registered: October 2008
Location: Colfax, CA
Karma: 11
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fred v wrote on Fri, 08 August 2014 05:56In thinking about this problem I came up with an idea. Since we have an air supply available would it be possible to tap into the fuel line and using the tank selector valve blow air bubbles into each tank to agitate the fuel? An electric fuel pump would be needed to prime the carb following this procedure.
Any thoughts?
Stirring might help... I don't know. Compressor air has considerable moisture and we don't want any water around ethanol.
Our pressure cap may be the best defense...
We have a Chevy Volt. (Love it) Because gas (in California, Ethanol gas) can lay around in the tank of a Volt, GM has done two things. 1) The tank is pressurized; much more than a normal vehicle and the canister is only used when a pump depressurizes before fueling. The tank is steel rather than plastic as in most modern vehicles. 2) After time the gas engine starts whether or not you want it to and uses gas. The computer has been looking at how long gas has been in the tank, ambient temperature and how much you added to what was left in the tank.
Unfortunately we have had to make several long trips in the first 8 months, so we have added gas often enough to stave off these "forced gas burns". Those who run around on electric only sometimes only keep one or two gallons in the tank at a time so the burn off run is shorter. GM has not commented on this practice as far as I know.
'74 Eleganza, SE, Howell + EBL
Best Wishes,
George
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| Re: Ethanol separation? [message #258192 is a reply to message #258190] |
Fri, 08 August 2014 15:03 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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We have a definite NO ETHANOL diluted fuel restriction on our aircraft by the FAA. Most of our airplanes are allowed to run auto fuel WITHOUT ethanol.
Auto fuel is running around $3.50 per gallon while 100 octane AV gas is $6.00 plus. Most of us require 80/87 fuel and the lead in 100 octane puts lead deposits on the spark plugs causing fouling. So non-ethanol unleaded auto fuel is preferred.
What some people are doing (illegally) is buying summer mix auto fuel and mixing it with water. This causes the ethanol to separate out and sink to the bottom of the tank. Then they drain off the ethanol/water mix and use the remaining 100% (filtered) gasoline for AV fuel. I am sure this is highly illegal but it solves their problems. I have not done this myself. They loose about 10% of the fuel doing this. One guy does this to 200 gallons of auto fuel at a time. He has a 250 gallon separation tank.
I asked and they say they have never found water or water/ethanol mix in their sumps of their airplane tanks so it seems to work. We normally take a sump sample before every flight.
I'm not suggesting this. I'm just reporting what I have seen.
A couple of people who tried (illegally) to run ethanol laced fuel have experienced vapor lock at higher altitudes. They have recovered from this problem by dropping down to below 4,000 ft. That is OK around here but risky in mountainous areas.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: Ethanol separation? [message #258208 is a reply to message #257500] |
Fri, 08 August 2014 17:46 |
fred v
Messages: 999
Registered: April 2006
Location: pensacola, fl.
Karma: 0
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In my Morgan replica 3 wheel car I was having carb problems when I first got it running. I once pulled the fuel hose and ran the pump. The catch can had a weird fuel sample that I now know was water/ethanol. This was a in a 6 gallon tank and the car sits in my shop with a sealed gas cap.
My next step will be to pull the fuel hose off the coach (I have a filter under the engine with clamps) and draw a sample to see what I get.
I googled "ethanol free" and found a number of stations here that have mid level straight gas. Maybe do a fillup with that. Plan will be to fill up with straight gas coming home from a trip and not worry about it.
Fred V
'77 Royale RB 455
P'cola, Fl
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| Re: [GMCnet] Ethanol separation? [message #258217 is a reply to message #258192] |
Fri, 08 August 2014 19:22 |
Jim Miller
Messages: 501
Registered: March 2008
Karma: 10
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My experience:
I have been successful in removing ethanol from gasoline using solvent extraction with water as many have described. I originally tried it on a small scale in a laboratory seperatory funnel with carefully measured amounts of gas and water and through back-calculation determined that there was indeed 10% ethanol concentration. I found that it took 20-30 minutes of waiting in order to achieve complete separation of the water and gas. I suspect this might take longer based on how vigorously one initially agitated the gas/water mix.
After my initial tests I did the same process on a larger scale (4 gallons) using plastic jugs and so far I have found no evidence of residual H2O in the gas several days after the initial wash.
My extracted EtOH/H2O mix appears to have a small amount of another component that gives it a gassy smell. This could have been an additive that was slightly soluble in EtOH/water or it could be an additive that was there to help EtOH mix uniformly with the gas at the distribution point where they added the Ethanol. Do we have a petrochemist on the list who might know?
I have no plans for the "pure" gas other than for use around the compound in our 2-cycle power tools.
If I were going to do this on a large(r) scale I'd use a conical bottom inductor tank to facilitate easier draining of the aqueous solution.
--Jim "saving the lives of Onans one unit at a time" Miller
1977 Eleganza II
1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH
On Aug 8, 2014, at 4:03 PM, Ken Burton wrote:
> We have a definite NO ETHANOL diluted fuel restriction on our aircraft by the FAA. Most of our airplanes are allowed to run auto fuel WITHOUT
> ethanol.
>
> Auto fuel is running around $3.50 per gallon while 100 octane AV gas is $6.00 plus. Most of us require 80/87 fuel and the lead in 100 octane puts
> lead deposits on the spark plugs causing fouling. So non-ethanol unleaded auto fuel is preferred.
>
> What some people are doing (illegally) is buying summer mix auto fuel and mixing it with water. This causes the ethanol to separate out and sink to
> the bottom of the tank. Then they drain off the ethanol/water mix and use the remaining 100% (filtered) gasoline for AV fuel. I am sure this is
> highly illegal but it solves their problems. I have not done this myself. They loose about 10% of the fuel doing this. One guy does this to 200
> gallons of auto fuel at a time. He has a 250 gallon separation tank.
>
> I asked and they say they have never found water or water/ethanol mix in their sumps of their airplane tanks so it seems to work. We normally take a
> sump sample before every flight.
>
> I'm not suggesting this. I'm just reporting what I have seen.
>
> A couple of people who tried (illegally) to run ethanol laced fuel have experienced vapor lock at higher altitudes. They have recovered from this
> problem by dropping down to below 4,000 ft. That is OK around here but risky in mountainous areas.
>
>
>
> --
> Ken Burton - N9KB
> 76 Palm Beach
> Hebron, Indiana
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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Jim Miller
1977 Eleganza II
1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH
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| Re: [GMCnet] Ethanol separation? [message #258218 is a reply to message #258217] |
Fri, 08 August 2014 19:38 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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Jim Miller wrote on Fri, 08 August 2014 19:22My experience:
I have been successful in removing ethanol from gasoline using solvent extraction with water as many have described. I originally tried it on a small scale in a laboratory seperatory funnel with carefully measured amounts of gas and water and through back-calculation determined that there was indeed 10% ethanol concentration. I found that it took 20-30 minutes of waiting in order to achieve complete separation of the water and gas. I suspect this might take longer based on how vigorously one initially agitated the gas/water mix.
After my initial tests I did the same process on a larger scale (4 gallons) using plastic jugs and so far I have found no evidence of residual H2O in the gas several days after the initial wash.
My extracted EtOH/H2O mix appears to have a small amount of another component that gives it a gassy smell. This could have been an additive that was slightly soluble in EtOH/water or it could be an additive that was there to help EtOH mix uniformly with the gas at the distribution point where they added the Ethanol. Do we have a petrochemist on the list who might know?
I have no plans for the "pure" gas other than for use around the compound in our 2-cycle power tools.
If I were going to do this on a large(r) scale I'd use a conical bottom inductor tank to facilitate easier draining of the aqueous solution.
--Jim "saving the lives of Onans one unit at a time" Miller
1977 Eleganza II
1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH
Have you got any idea how much water is required when doing this? The guy at the airport is using 200 gallons of E-10 mixed with 25 gallons of water. In the end he has 50 gallons of ethanol/H20 mix on the bottom and 175 gallons of real fuel left to be used.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] Ethanol separation? [message #258220 is a reply to message #258218] |
Fri, 08 August 2014 19:50 |
Jim Miller
Messages: 501
Registered: March 2008
Karma: 10
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Ken,
I used 500ml Gas and 50mL water and ended up with 90mL of extracted aqueous solution after some slight spillages. The extracted solution was crystal clear and was slightly flammable when spread out in a thin layer on a piece of metal.
For my larger experiment I did not measure the water nor gas in an exacting way but I am confident I used more than the necessary amount of water - and my extracted water/ethanol solution was slightly milky and was nonflammable.
I'd say his proportion leans toward excess water.
--Jim "saving the lives of Onans one unit at a time" Miller
1977 Eleganza II
1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH
On Aug 8, 2014, at 4:03 PM, Ken Burton wrote:
> Have you got any idea how much water is required when doing this? The guy at the airport is using 200 gallons of E-10 mixed with 25 gallons of water.
> In the end he has 50 gallons of ethanol/H20 mix on the bottom and 175 gallons of real fuel left to be used.
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Jim Miller
1977 Eleganza II
1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH
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| Re: Ethanol separation? [message #258460 is a reply to message #257500] |
Mon, 11 August 2014 00:29 |
lotsofspareparts
Messages: 726
Registered: May 2014
Location: Arlington, WA
Karma: -9
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fred v wrote on Fri, 01 August 2014 20:38I keep hearing this phrase. They are saying that, over time, the ethanol will separate out from the gasoline and settle to the bottom of the tank. I am imagining this happening to my coach as it sits for long periods and when I crank it up I'm running on pure alcohol.
Is there any truth to this?
After reading the 2 links provided by Emery I am actually pleased that this Marine Fuel Water separator is installed on my coach, I was considering removing it. Something the PO did.
After considering it, it makes sense to have it.
Jared
Jared & Tina Lazaron + 14yr old Daughter.....
77 Eleganza II "Recherché".....
73 Canyon Lands 230 "Elephant"
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