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Found Problem with Brakes I reported last Thursday [message #254752] Tue, 08 July 2014 17:52 Go to next message
Jon payne is currently offline  Jon payne   United States
Messages: 495
Registered: May 2008
Karma: 1
Senior Member
Guys,

Finally have some time to post pics of the brake problem. If you saw my post on how our GMC was appearing to me to be falling apart just one week before our trip to Yellowstone, you read that one of the issues I had was with the brakes. To recap, as I was departing the driveway I had no brakes. The brake light came on and I had to pump it several times to get the brakes back. Well as Ken H suspected, one of the brake pads fell apart (thanks Ken). See below pictures (also on the photo sight).

The last picture is a piece of the brake pad at the end of our driveway. Apparently these piece was the last remaining piece of the pad and as I rolled down the driveway it departed and when I applied the brakes that caliper further extended thus the momentary loss of braking. Remaining pads looked okay. Replaced them with NAPA "Ultra Premium" brake (Semi-Metallic) pads.

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/brake-pad-failure/p55186-failure-of-rf-brake-pa.html

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/data/6629/medium/IMG_02561.JPG

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/data/6629/medium/IMG_0257.JPG
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/data/6629/medium/IMG_02581.JPG
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/data/6629/medium/IMG_02592.JPG


Jon Payne
76 Palm Beach
Westfield,IN
Re: [GMCnet] Found Problem with Brakes I reported last Thursday [message #254759 is a reply to message #254752] Tue, 08 July 2014 19:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ken Henderson is currently offline  Ken Henderson   United States
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
Senior Member
Jon,

Do you know the brand/part number/etc., on the failed pad? Total failure
like that after only 7000 miles is cause for concern -- and future
avoidance.

Personally, I use only Performance Friction carbon metallic pads. AutoZone
formerly carried them, with a Lifetime Warranty. O'Reilly's still does.
And, IIRC, Applied GMC.

Ken H.


On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at 6:52 PM, Jon Payne wrote:

> Guys,
>
> Finally have some time to post pics of the brake problem. If you saw my
> post on how our GMC was appearing to me to be falling apart just one week
> before our trip to Yellowstone, you read that one of the issues I had was
> with the brakes. To recap, as I was departing the driveway I had no
> brakes.
> The brake light came on and I had to pump it several times to get the
> brakes back. Well as Ken H suspected, one of the brake pads fell apart
> (thanks
> Ken). See below pictures (also on the photo sight).
>
> The last picture is a piece of the brake pad at the end of our driveway.
> Apparently these piece was the last remaining piece of the pad and as I
> rolled down the driveway it departed and when I applied the brakes that
> caliper further extended thus the momentary loss of braking. Remaining pads
> looked okay. Replaced them with NAPA "Ultra Premium" brake
> (Semi-Metallic) pads.
>
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/brake-pad-failure/p55186-failure-of-rf-brake-pa.html
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
Re: Found Problem with Brakes I reported last Thursday [message #254761 is a reply to message #254752] Tue, 08 July 2014 19:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lotsofspareparts is currently offline  lotsofspareparts   United States
Messages: 726
Registered: May 2014
Location: Arlington, WA
Karma: -9
Senior Member
Just going to throw this out there, have you checked the performance of your rear brakes?

The only reason I ask is that I (unbeknownst to me) drove my new coach home 35 miles from red light to red light, up and down hills to find my front brakes smoking by the time I backed it into the driveway. I had zero rear brakes. One of the slave cylinders had leaked out all of the available fluid.

I say that because when I replaced all of the brakes front and rear, the front pads had been cooked and fell apart when I removed them.
They were riveted pads and had a lot of meat left on them..... they literally fell apart.

Jared


Jared & Tina Lazaron + 14yr old Daughter..... 77 Eleganza II "Recherché"..... 73 Canyon Lands 230 "Elephant"
Re: Found Problem with Brakes I reported last Thursday [message #254765 is a reply to message #254752] Tue, 08 July 2014 20:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Matt Colie is currently offline  Matt Colie   United States
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
Senior Member
Jon,

Glad you and the coach are largely OK....

Word from some experience here.
Don't put new pads on that disk right away.
The burrs raised by the pad backing will eat them right up.
BUT, if you sand the disks with a DA and some silicon carbide paper, they may just work well enough to break in the new pads.
You may have to repeat this trick a few times before the holes get worn over.

Good Luck

Matt


Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
Re: Found Problem with Brakes I reported last Thursday [message #254779 is a reply to message #254765] Tue, 08 July 2014 22:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jon payne is currently offline  Jon payne   United States
Messages: 495
Registered: May 2008
Karma: 1
Senior Member
Thanks Matt, I did have a similar concern so I sanded the best I could all the burrs. I'm thinking this fall sending the hub/knuckle back to Dave L and have he replace the rotor.

Ken, the brake pad that broke was EBC Yellow pads.

Jon


Jon Payne
76 Palm Beach
Westfield,IN
Re: [GMCnet] Found Problem with Brakes I reported last Thursday [message #254789 is a reply to message #254779] Wed, 09 July 2014 00:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ken Henderson is currently offline  Ken Henderson   United States
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
Senior Member
Jon,

Thanks for that information. You may not have been around here in '06 when
some of us did tests of the then-unfamiliar EBC Yellow pads, using my coach,
suitably instrumented: http://bdub.net/Brake_Tests/

Those tests indicated that the pads were a significant improvement over the
Performance Friction pads many of us (including myself) were using.

Some time later, when I had about 20,000 miles on those pads, I repeated
the tests in an abbreviated, not as well controlled, follow-up exercise.
Those results were not nearly as impressive, showing little, if any,
improvement over the PF's. Futher, the EBC's were essentially worn out and
were showing signs of failure similar to what you experienced, though not
as severe.

Because the second tests were not as well controlled, because we had so
severely mistreated the EBC's during the first test, and because the
results were not dramatically different to the first cycle, I merely
announce the results here on GMCNet and never presented the full results
for publication. In retrospect, that may have not been a good decision.
After the 20,000 tests showed the EBC's worn out (and their 20,000 mile
warranty therefore expired), I reinstalled the original 12,000 mile PF's
(with their Lifetime Warranty), and have never looked back.

The EBC's seem to perform better cold than the PF's which need to be warmed
up for best retarding; but, their life is considerably shorter and their
warranty less generous.

Ken H.
Americus, GA
'76 X-Birchaven w/Cad500/Howell EFI & EBL,
Manny Brakes & 1-Ton, etc., etc.
www.gmcwipersetc.com


On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at 11:38 PM, Jon Payne wrote:

> Thanks Matt, I did have a similar concern so I sanded the best I could
> all the burrs. I'm thinking this fall sending the hub/knuckle back to Dave L
> and have he replace the rotor.
>
> Ken, the brake pad that broke was EBC Yellow pads.
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
Re: [GMCnet] Found Problem with Brakes I reported last Thursday [message #254812 is a reply to message #254789] Wed, 09 July 2014 08:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Larry is currently offline  Larry   United States
Messages: 2875
Registered: January 2004
Location: Menomonie, WI
Karma: 10
Senior Member
Ken Henderson wrote on Wed, 09 July 2014 00:35
Jon,

Thanks for that information. You may not have been around here in '06 when
some of us did tests of the then-unfamiliar EBC Yellow pads, using my coach,
suitably instrumented: http://bdub.net/Brake_Tests/

Those tests indicated that the pads were a significant improvement over the
Performance Friction pads many of us (including myself) were using.

Some time later, when I had about 20,000 miles on those pads, I repeated
the tests in an abbreviated, not as well controlled, follow-up exercise.
Those results were not nearly as impressive, showing little, if any,
improvement over the PF's. Futher, the EBC's were essentially worn out and
were showing signs of failure similar to what you experienced, though not
as severe.

Because the second tests were not as well controlled, because we had so
severely mistreated the EBC's during the first test, and because the
results were not dramatically different to the first cycle, I merely
announce the results here on GMCNet and never presented the full results
for publication. In retrospect, that may have not been a good decision.
After the 20,000 tests showed the EBC's worn out (and their 20,000 mile
warranty therefore expired), I reinstalled the original 12,000 mile PF's
(with their Lifetime Warranty), and have never looked back.

The EBC's seem to perform better cold than the PF's which need to be warmed
up for best retarding; but, their life is considerably shorter and their
warranty less generous.

Ken H.
Americus, GA
'76 X-Birchaven w/Cad500/Howell EFI & EBL,
Manny Brakes & 1-Ton, etc., etc.
www.gmcwipersetc.com


I can echo Kens experience with the Yellow pads. (not the tests though) I installed the yellow pads and noticed a nice increase in stopping power, but at the expense of a lot of brake dust on the wheels....a lot more than I had seen on any other pad that I used on multiple vehicles over the years. When I went to check them, they had worn half way through in just 10K miles, and there was some evidence that water had worked it's way behind the friction material around the parameter, rusted and started lifting the friction material from the backing. I removed them and replaced with PF's. I also noticed what appeared to be a lot of wear on the discs. I scratched the hell out of the discs with emery on a random orbital sander, put the new PF's on and bedded them. All is well now. JWID


Larry Smile
78 Royale w/500 Caddy
Menomonie, WI.
Re: [GMCnet] Found Problem with Brakes I reported last Thursday [message #254821 is a reply to message #254812] Wed, 09 July 2014 09:22 Go to previous message
USAussie is currently offline  USAussie   United States
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
Senior Member
G'day,

I "third" what Ken and Larry have noted. When I replaced the front hubs and knuckles with units from Dave Lenzi he shipped complete
assemblies with new rotors as well. He suggested Performance Friction pads (P/N 0052.20). He noted that those pads would transfer
material to the rotors and slow down disk wear. When he installed them he measured his disks and he has checked them yearly for
several years and has not noted any appreciable wear. Double Trouble has disks with 80mm calipers on the front and middle wheels
with those pads and drums on the rear with John Evans' carbon metallic shoes.

Dave instructed me to sand the middle disks to open the pores in the metal to allow material to transfer from the pads to the disks.
The rear drums were new so I didn't have to sand them.

I am very happy with the way Double Trouble stops, while the reaction arm braking system would be an improvement IMO it's not worth
the added expense.

Please don't bother commenting that when have a crash that could have been prevented by the extra stopping power of the reaction arm
system I'll be sorry. I am FULLY aware that it will reduce the stopping distance in panic stop. I've been riding motorcycles for
fifty years and I GA-RON-TEE I KNOW how to drive defensively! ;-)

Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
USAussie - Downunder
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428

-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Larry
Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2014 8:13 AM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Found Problem with Brakes I reported last Thursday
I can echo Kens experience with the Yellow pads. (not the tests though) I installed the yellow pads and noticed a nice increase in
stopping power, but at the expense of a lot of brake dust on the wheels....a lot more than I had seen on any other pad that I used
on multiple vehicles over the years. When I went to check them, they had worn half way through in just 10K miles, and there was
some evidence that water had worked it's way behind the friction material around the parameter, rusted and started lifting the
friction material from the backing. I removed them and replaced with PF's. I also noticed what appeared to be a lot of wear on the
discs. I scratched the hell out of the discs with emery on a random orbital sander, put the new PF's on and bedded them. All is
well now. JWID
--
Larry

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Regards, Rob M. (USAussie) The Pedantic Mechanic Sydney, Australia '75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428 '75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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