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| in tank fuel pumps [message #251018] |
Fri, 30 May 2014 11:02  |
GMC_LES
Messages: 569
Registered: October 2009
Location: Montreal
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I have seen several photos of how an in tank pump can be fitted to a TZE, but none of those installs made use of an OEM style plastic housing surrounding the pump. I have been wondering about this for some time. I assume that the factory pump installations all use a housing for several reasons. those reasons being pump cooling, noise control, and secure pump mounting.
Of the pump housings I have had apart in my hands, I seem to recall that most of them provided some sort of fuel bath to help cool the pump, even when the tank was near empty.
Since there have been a few reports of GMCers that experienced in-tank pump failures, I wonder if the lack of sufficient pump cooling might have been a factor?
This raises my main question. Has anyone explored the possibility of modifying a factory type pump housing/mounting for use in our shallow tanks? I have seen several examples on eBay that look as though they could be modified, but photos leave a lot to be desired.
Les Burt
Montreal
1975 Eleganza 26ft
A work in Progress
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| Re: [GMCnet] in tank fuel pumps [message #251023 is a reply to message #251018] |
Fri, 30 May 2014 12:19  |
powerjon
Messages: 2446
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 5
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Senior Member |
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Les,
You can mount them like Emery does in his intank fuel pump layout or as Jim K does in his layout. I chose to do it like Jim K does.
http://www.appliedgmc.com/products/full/1130.jpg
The pump is basically laying on the bottom of the tank at a slight angle and covered by the fuel. As long as the pump is pumping fuel it is being cooled by the fuel passing thru it. This picture is without the wiring installed for the pump. I did take pictures of my installation but I cannot find them as of yet. Emery’s layout is being cooled by the fuel passing thru it. I don’t run my tanks empty so I don’t expose the pumps to running dry
JR Wright
GMC Great Laker MHC
GMC Eastern States
GMCMHI
78 GMC Buskirk 30’ Stretch
1975 GMC Avion (Under Reconstruction)
Michigan
On May 30, 2014, at 12:02 PM, Les Burt wrote:
> I have seen several photos of how an in tank pump can be fitted to a TZE, but none of those installs made use of an OEM style plastic housing
> Surrounding the pump. I have been wondering about this for some time. I assume that the factory pump installations all use a housing for several
> Reasons. those reasons being pump cooling, noise control, and secure pump mounting.
>
> Of the pump housings I have had apart in my hands, I seem to recall that most of them provided some sort of fuel bath to help cool the pump, even when
> the tank was near empty.
>
> Since there have been a few reports of GMCers that experienced in-tank pump failures, I wonder if the lack of sufficient pump cooling might have been
> a factor?
>
> This raises my main question. Has anyone explored the possibility of modifying a factory type pump housing/mounting for use in our shallow tanks? I
> have seen several examples on eBay that look as though they could be modified, but photos leave a lot to be desired.
>
>
> --
> Les Burt
> Montreal
> 1975 Eleganza 26ft
> A work in Progress
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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J.R. Wright
GMC GreatLaker
GMC Eastern States
GMCMI
78 30' Buskirk Stretch
75 Avion Under Reconstruction
Michigan
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| Re: [GMCnet] in tank fuel pumps [message #251058 is a reply to message #251023] |
Fri, 30 May 2014 18:49 |
GMC.LES
Messages: 505
Registered: April 2014
Karma: -2
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Emery's install is the one I saw first, then I saw JimK's kit. I think I also saw photos of a third configuration. I like the idea and the fact that they are working relatively well in several coaches. That said, I do have a few concerns and am looking for ways to improve on or reduce potential failure points.
Since we can't 100% be certain that we won't run a tank dry or near to it when travelling away from home, I wouldn't count on keeping a tank partially full to protect a pump. All it takes is a misjudgement.
It is my belief that submersible fuel pumps benefit from external cooling. I believe this is why most of the factory pumping units encase the pump in a housing that will surround the pump with fuel as long there is fuel to pump.
My question should have been why do the factory pump installations use such a housing and would there be any benefit to using one in a custom install like ours?
There are a few fellas here with factory exposure that I'm hoping might be able/willing to shed some light on this.
Les Burt
Montreal
1975 Eleganza 26ft
A work in Progress
On May 30, 2014, at 1:19 PM, John Wright wrote:
Les,
You can mount them like Emery does in his intank fuel pump layout or as Jim K does in his layout. I chose to do it like Jim K does.
http://www.appliedgmc.com/products/full/1130.jpg
The pump is basically laying on the bottom of the tank at a slight angle and covered by the fuel. As long as the pump is pumping fuel it is being cooled by the fuel passing thru it. This picture is without the wiring installed for the pump. I did take pictures of my installation but I cannot find them as of yet. Emery’s layout is being cooled by the fuel passing thru it. I don’t run my tanks empty so I don’t expose the pumps to running dry
JR Wright
GMC Great Laker MHC
GMC Eastern States
GMCMHI
78 GMC Buskirk 30’ Stretch
1975 GMC Avion (Under Reconstruction)
Michigan
> On May 30, 2014, at 12:02 PM, Les Burt wrote:
>
> I have seen several photos of how an in tank pump can be fitted to a TZE, but none of those installs made use of an OEM style plastic housing
> Surrounding the pump. I have been wondering about this for some time. I assume that the factory pump installations all use a housing for several
> Reasons. those reasons being pump cooling, noise control, and secure pump mounting.
>
> Of the pump housings I have had apart in my hands, I seem to recall that most of them provided some sort of fuel bath to help cool the pump, even when
> the tank was near empty.
>
> Since there have been a few reports of GMCers that experienced in-tank pump failures, I wonder if the lack of sufficient pump cooling might have been
> a factor?
>
> This raises my main question. Has anyone explored the possibility of modifying a factory type pump housing/mounting for use in our shallow tanks? I
> have seen several examples on eBay that look as though they could be modified, but photos leave a lot to be desired.
>
>
> --
> Les Burt
> Montreal
> 1975 Eleganza 26ft
> A work in Progress
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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| Re: in tank fuel pumps [message #251421 is a reply to message #251018] |
Tue, 03 June 2014 19:04 |
Craig Lechowicz
Messages: 541
Registered: October 2006
Location: Waterford, MI
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Les,
I think the main reason the modern tank assemblies use the housing around the pump is to keep the pump intake covered so there is less chance of getting air into the fuel injection system. They usually have the return line routed to keep that cylinder full even when the tank is empty or near empty.
Craig Lechowicz
'77 Kingsley, Waterford, MI
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| Re: [GMCnet] in tank fuel pumps [message #251430 is a reply to message #251058] |
Tue, 03 June 2014 19:36 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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Les Burt[1 wrote on Fri, 30 May 2014 17:49]Emery's install is the one I saw first, then I saw JimK's kit. I think I also saw photos of a third configuration. I like the idea and the fact that they are working relatively well in several coaches. That said, I do have a few concerns and am looking for ways to improve on or reduce potential failure points.
Since we can't 100% be certain that we won't run a tank dry or near to it when travelling away from home, I wouldn't count on keeping a tank partially full to protect a pump. All it takes is a misjudgement.
It is my belief that submersible fuel pumps benefit from external cooling. I believe this is why most of the factory pumping units encase the pump in a housing that will surround the pump with fuel as long there is fuel to pump.
My question should have been why do the factory pump installations use such a housing and would there be any benefit to using one in a custom install like ours?
There are a few fellas here with factory exposure that I'm hoping might be able/willing to shed some light on this.
Les Burt
Montreal
1975 Eleganza 26ft
A work in Progress
On May 30, 2014, at 1:19 PM, John Wright wrote:
Les,
You can mount them like Emery does in his intank fuel pump layout or as Jim K does in his layout. I chose to do it like Jim K does.
http://www.appliedgmc.com/products/full/1130.jpg
The pump is basically laying on the bottom of the tank at a slight angle and covered by the fuel. As long as the pump is pumping fuel it is being cooled by the fuel passing thru it. This picture is without the wiring installed for the pump. I did take pictures of my installation but I cannot find them as of yet. Emery's layout is being cooled by the fuel passing thru it. I don't run my tanks empty so I don't expose the pumps to running dry
JR Wright
GMC Great Laker MHC
GMC Eastern States
GMCMHI
78 GMC Buskirk 30' Stretch
1975 GMC Avion (Under Reconstruction)
Michigan
> On May 30, 2014, at 12:02 PM, Les Burt wrote:
>
> I have seen several photos of how an in tank pump can be fitted to a TZE, but none of those installs made use of an OEM style plastic housing
> Surrounding the pump. I have been wondering about this for some time. I assume that the factory pump installations all use a housing for several
> Reasons. those reasons being pump cooling, noise control, and secure pump mounting.
>
> Of the pump housings I have had apart in my hands, I seem to recall that most of them provided some sort of fuel bath to help cool the pump, even when
> the tank was near empty.
>
> Since there have been a few reports of GMCers that experienced in-tank pump failures, I wonder if the lack of sufficient pump cooling might have been
> a factor?
>
> This raises my main question. Has anyone explored the possibility of modifying a factory type pump housing/mounting for use in our shallow tanks? I
> have seen several examples on eBay that look as though they could be modified, but photos leave a lot to be desired.
>
>
> --
> Les Burt
> Montreal
> 1975 Eleganza 26ft
> A work in Progress
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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I think the housing is there primarily to reduce the effect of fuel slosh and reduce momentary starvation and fuel gage fluctuations.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] in tank fuel pumps [message #251488 is a reply to message #251453] |
Wed, 04 June 2014 09:07 |
powerjon
Messages: 2446
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 5
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Senior Member |
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We are not the first to think about fuel tank surge or fuel pumps or in-tank fuel pumps.
Do a Google search and enter this phrase. “Fuel surge tank design”
You can scroll down and look at the various tank designs, surge tanks and fuel pump layouts both external and internal. Just click on the picture that you interested in. A lot is high performance, but could be adapted for our use.
I was looking for the one link that showed the application of a metal dog bowl mounting inside the tank with the fuel pumping mounted inside the bowl. This is a flat and not a round bottomed bowl about 12 inches in diameter and about 4” tall. It has 4 holes in the sides about 1/2 inch in diameter to allow fuel in and out. Very simple but effective to keep fuel around the pump.
Another very good Google search is “Fuel Tank Design” and go from there. Go to the bottom of the search and look at the related items
JR Wright
78 Buskirk Stretch
75 Avion
Michigan
On Jun 3, 2014, at 11:22 PM, Les Burt wrote:
> Bob,
> So what you are saying is that the housing has an internal sump. On the pump housings I've had apart, that sump surrounded the pump, helping keep it submerged in fuel.
>
> Les Burt
> Montreal
> 1975 Eleganza 26ft
> A work in Progress
>
>
>
> On Jun 3, 2014, at 8:36 PM, Bob de Kruyff
> wrote:
>
> I think the housing is there primarily to reduce the effect of fuel slosh and reduce momentary starvation and fuel gage fluctuations.
> --
> Bob de Kruyff
> 78 Eleganza
> Chandler, AZ
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
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_______________________________________________
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J.R. Wright
GMC GreatLaker
GMC Eastern States
GMCMI
78 30' Buskirk Stretch
75 Avion Under Reconstruction
Michigan
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| Re: [GMCnet] in tank fuel pumps [message #251538 is a reply to message #251453] |
Wed, 04 June 2014 22:38 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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Les Burt[1 wrote on Tue, 03 June 2014 21:22]Bob,
So what you are saying is that the housing has an internal sump. On the pump housings I've had apart, that sump surrounded the pump, helping keep it submerged in fuel.
Les Burt
Montreal
1975 Eleganza 26ft
A work in Progress
On Jun 3, 2014, at 8:36 PM, Bob de Kruyff
wrote:
I think the housing is there primarily to reduce the effect of fuel slosh and reduce momentary starvation and fuel gage fluctuations.
--
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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It sounds like we are talking about two different things. I'm talking about a coffee can sized housing that the pump sits in that acts as a baffle that will also hold enough fuel for possibly a minute worth of run time.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] in tank fuel pumps [message #251551 is a reply to message #251543] |
Thu, 05 June 2014 06:48 |
midlf
Messages: 2212
Registered: July 2007
Location: SE Wisc. (Palmyra)
Karma: 1
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Les Burt[1 wrote on Thu, 05 June 2014 01:56]Here is an example of a complete fuel pump assembly with the plastic housing that I am curious about.
http://www.carid.com/2005-chevy-suburban-fuel-delivery-parts/item-8135042.html
This is a JWID.
A few years ago when the ethanol & vapor lock problems started getting worse I started to think about in tank fuel pumps. About the same time I found a GM in tank fuel pump from the late 60's.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/gas-tank-rework/p36375-in-tank-fuel-pump-for.html
My in tank fuel pump experience was all with Fords but I suspect it is the same for all.
The plastic housing is also a sump for the pump. It has a small hole near the bottom to allow some fuel to flow into the housing. The electric pump also feeds a jet pump that actually keeps the housing filled. The jet pump pickup is as low as it can be in the housing. Excess just runs over the top. The fuel return also dumps into the housing. The systems are designed to keep this housing full and the electic pump is submerged in the housing and gets its fuel from the housing. It will provide run time if fuel slosh uncovers the fuel pickup for the assembly. Without this, and with fuel injection if the pump sucked air you would be SOL. This housing on an in tank fuel pump should not be necessary on a carbed engine because of the fuel in the carb float bowl. This is how the 60's GM pump was set up.
Also the filled housing provides cooling for the electric pump by keeping it submerged. When I first got a vehicle with an intank pump a veteran mechanic friend cautioned me to never let the tank get below 1/4 otherwise the pump would run hotter and fail sooner. I later found out he was correct, the hard way.
For my system, under construction since "forever" and finally on the road, I chose to use in tank fuel pumps. I could not find a reference for the '69 Riv pump but the net/forum came through (I think it was one of the Kens or RickD) and found a cross to the Airtex shown in the photos.
Although I would be running a carb I decided to install a surge tank with a P4070 pump to pump up to the carb. I decided to do this for two reasons. Given the extremely shallow tanks on the GMC I felt pump pickup problems could outlast the run time of the float bowl. Also if I ever converted to FI I would not have to get back into the system and rework it but only change the one fuel pump on the surge tank. My surge tank is about 1 gallon and is mounted under the step behind the fender liner. I also put recirculation between the surge tank and the aux tank and between the carb and the surge tank. On both my GMCs the main tanks were in good condition and the aux tanks were very corroded and crudded up. I believe/speculate this was due to less fuel circulation/use from the aux tank. Therefore I ran the recirc line to the aux tank so there would always be fuel flow through that tank. It also will keep the aux tank as full as the unusual GMC system will allow.
I had correspondence with Bdub when I first posted it and I believe he did install them and may have some comments.
Over all, mechanical and electrical, this is not a KISS project but I felt it was necessary given the changes in our fuel supply what with ethanol and regional mixes.
Steve Southworth
1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
Palmyra WI
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