Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Loooong trip home
| Loooong trip home [message #249099] |
Mon, 05 May 2014 07:43  |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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I headed out of Bean Station midmorning, cruising along. Stopped t a roadside rest just into GA and the coach vapor locked, so the puppy and I spent a half hour checking out the rest stop. Fired it up and headed south.... Just S of Adairsville on 75 came BAM SCRUNCHHHHHH. Looked out the window, there's a wheel passing me as I slow down. I got the coach off the side of the highway and had a look. The middle wheel on the driver's side came off the spindle, grease everywhere, etc. I've no idea why, I packed the bearings and torqued the nut and set the locking plate per the reaction kit instructions. The inner bearing was nowhere to be seen, I suspect it died and took the wheel with it. The outer was still captive in the hubcap, I expect I'll fine the nut there too, and the plate. The coach is n a yard in Adairsville (took seven calls to find someone who had the means to tow it on a Sunday afternoon).I'll make arrangements today for something big enough (landoll probably) to get it and haul it home. Likely I will need a spindle and a drum and a backing plate, plus bearings and a seal. We'll see when the postmortem is complete.
Stick Miller stopped and helped, once we had the tow lined up, the BWD puppy and I repaired home in the toad. Never a dull moment.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: Loooong trip home [message #249103 is a reply to message #249099] |
Mon, 05 May 2014 08:49  |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Update -
The body will be delivered to Zeb Frady at Southland in Buford. His caveat 'We're a couple weeks behind...' so what. It will get fixed properly.
In retrospect, I imagine I failed the seal when I reinstalled the wheel. reasoning - it went 300 miles to failure at freeway speeds. That's just about long enough for the grease to spit out of the inner bearing (grease was everywhere on the drum, backing plate, etc) and it to fail. Oh well, it's only money.....
johnny
'76 23' transmode norris (with a sore paw)
'13 model BWD
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: Loooong trip home [message #249104 is a reply to message #249099] |
Mon, 05 May 2014 09:24 |
jknezek
Messages: 1057
Registered: December 2007
Karma: 5
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Zeb Frady took care of mine when the passenger middle wheel left the spindle on the interstate just north of Atlanta about 4 years ago. It was also a Sunday afternoon and took about 6 hours for Good Sam to find a landoll to get the coach 15 miles to the Frady's. They did a great job and I picked the coach up, no problems, about 2 weeks later.
Must be something Zeb is doing to the roads around there to drum up business! Just kidding.
Thanks,
Jeremy Knezek
1976 Glenbrook
Birmingham, AL
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| Re: Loooong trip home [message #249127 is a reply to message #249103] |
Mon, 05 May 2014 16:19 |
C Boyd
Messages: 2629
Registered: April 2006
Karma: 18
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Dang it Johnny.. If you lost the inner bearing you probably also lost the bearing spacer that comes with the kit also. I think I got a good LF backing plate and probably a good drum and hub. Let me know when you find out what you need. If it needs a spindle probably new would be best. | Johnny Bridges wrote on Mon, 05 May 2014 09:49 |
Update -
The body will be delivered to Zeb Frady at Southland in Buford. His caveat 'We're a couple weeks behind...' so what. It will get fixed properly.
In retrospect, I imagine I failed the seal when I reinstalled the wheel. reasoning - it went 300 miles to failure at freeway speeds. That's just about long enough for the grease to spit out of the inner bearing (grease was everywhere on the drum, backing plate, etc) and it to fail. Oh well, it's only money.....
johnny
'76 23' transmode norris (with a sore paw)
'13 model BWD
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C. Boyd
76 Crestmont
East Tennessee
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| Re: Loooong trip home [message #249129 is a reply to message #249128] |
Mon, 05 May 2014 19:19 |
stick miller
Messages: 1036
Registered: March 2010
Location: Americus, Georgia
Karma: 0
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...and of all the useless mechanics to stop, it was me. I did have my dumb phone and I Googled some wrecker services. Held the puppy while Johnny did the talking.
Johnny's situation could have been worse. Somehow he managed to retrieve his tire/wheel from the center guardrail. Glad he's home safe.
Stick Miller
'78 Royale - "White Trash" - she left me for another man
'76 Eleganza - "Cousin Eddie" Sold
'84 Bluebird Wanderlodge - "Past Tents"
Americus, GA
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| Re: Loooong trip home [message #249142 is a reply to message #249099] |
Mon, 05 May 2014 23:00 |
cbryan
Messages: 451
Registered: May 2012
Location: Ennis, Texas
Karma: 3
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Johnny,
Man, that's bad fortune. Glad no one was hurt, and that the GMC will be OK after the buck infusion. Getting snakebit, like I do from reading this forum sometimes. If Ken Henderson breaks down what are the odds for us mortals? I don't suppose that a cotter pin could have dropped out? You aren't like me and forget the occasional cotter key, are you? If the nut is off rattling around in the hubcap undamaged, I believe there is a cotter key problem. The post mortem will be interesting.
I think that your seal installation was OK, given your meticulous background. I am thinking the grease was probably from the wheel getting loose first. Though, it will just add to my misdiagnoses on the forum. For the record, I thought the Gadabout would make it to Edmonton with no problems. I guess I believe in magic.
Glad you and the dog were OK. I know the dog knew better than to think things were bad. He had what he needed. Loved one to take care of him. Everything else is expendable.
I think your bad luck just got over with. The last devil working for Murphy left the GMC with a bang, but he's gone now.
Carey
Carey from Ennis, Texas
78 Royale, 500 Cadillac, Rance Baxter EFI.
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| Re: Loooong trip home [message #249146 is a reply to message #249099] |
Tue, 06 May 2014 06:29 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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No cotter pin on this one. The reaction arm kit includes a lock plate whose tabs I had carefully bent up to lock the spindle nut. I'll go by Frady's this afternoon and pick up some stuff. I'll take a closer look at the remains and see what looks busted/burnt and what doesn't.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: Loooong trip home [message #249150 is a reply to message #249099] |
Tue, 06 May 2014 09:01 |
Carl S.
Messages: 4186
Registered: January 2009
Location: Tucson, AZ.
Karma: 13
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Johnny,
You're in good company. IIRC, Raymond Cruz had a wheel come off of his $400,000.00 GMC-body-on-a-Workhorse-chassis on his way from Orlando to LA. The way I remember it, he spent the night with a local Black Lister while Jim Bounds dispatched a crew to effect repairs. It can happen to anybody.
Carl Stouffer
'75 ex Palm Beach
Tucson, AZ.
Chuck Aulgur Reaction Arm Disc Brakes, Quadrabags, 3.70 LSD final drive, Lenzi knuckles/hubs, Dodge Truck 16" X 8" front wheels, Rear American Eagles, Solar battery charging. GMCSJ and GMCMI member
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| Re: Loooong trip home [message #249151 is a reply to message #249146] |
Tue, 06 May 2014 09:29 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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Senior Member |
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Johnny,
I'm trying to understand how this can happen without the spindle nut coming off or the spindle actually breaking off. IF the spindle nut started unscrewing you'd have lost the locating mechanism for the bearings and I can see how the inner bearing might push out the seal and throw grease around. But I can't think of how the hub could move and come off without the spindle nut unscrewing which would mean that whatever retaining mechanism didn't retain. Lock plates have been around for a jillion (highly technical enjeneern term) years and should have been sufficient.
It'd be good to get to the bottom of what happened if possible so it won't happen to others. Thankfully nothing except your wallet was hurt but on a curvy road or other conditions, it could have caused a bad thing to happen.
| Johnny Bridges wrote on Tue, 06 May 2014 06:29 |
No cotter pin on this one. The reaction arm kit includes a lock plate whose tabs I had carefully bent up to lock the spindle nut. I'll go by Frady's this afternoon and pick up some stuff. I'll take a closer look at the remains and see what looks busted/burnt and what doesn't.
--johnny
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Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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| Re: Loooong trip home [message #249178 is a reply to message #249146] |
Thu, 08 May 2014 21:54 |
Adrien G.
Messages: 474
Registered: May 2008
Location: Burns Flat, OK 73624
Karma: 1
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Johnny Bridges wrote on Tue, 06 May 2014 06:29No cotter pin on this one. The reaction arm kit includes a lock plate whose tabs I had carefully bent up to lock the spindle nut. I'll go by Frady's this afternoon and pick up some stuff. I'll take a closer look at the remains and see what looks busted/burnt and what doesn't.
--johnny
What I read is that the space required for the Reaction Brake Kit makes the spindle short for the lock nut to have a keyed washer (it plays an important part preventing the nut from moving) and cotter pin lock. One could modify the hub outer bearing cup shoulder (sinking the outer bearing deeper in the hub), that would increase the nut space. Converting to wet hubs, the plexiglass cover would allow visual checking on the spindle nut. The ultimate way would be new longer spindles so everything is back to OEM with the hub mounting and space for the Reaction Kit system.
How many have had problems with the new spindle nut lock system?
Just my thinking.
Adrien & Jenny Genesoto
75 Glenbrook (26-3) Mods LS3.70 FD / Reaction Sys / 80mm Front&Intermidiate / Hydroboost / 16" Tires / Frame Rebuild / Interior Rebuild
Yuba City,Ca. Text 530-nine-3-three-3-nine-nine-6
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| Re: Loooong trip home [message #249197 is a reply to message #249099] |
Fri, 09 May 2014 06:58 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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Post mortem.....
The spacer moves the nut outward enough that you can no longer get a pin through the hole. The lock plate supplied still locks to the slot in the spindle, and you still get a full nut on the spindle. Therein is not the problem. And as Kerry notes, this sort of locking system has been around successfully for quite I while, I've seen it elsewhere on rolling stock I've owned or worked on.
Cursory inspection the other afternoon shows a backing plate missing an inch or so on the bottom which ground off on the highway, completely missing inner bearing components, missing spacer, scored and spattered drum, and gouged and heat treated spindle. I didn't take the wheel off the hub, the hub cap appears to contain the outer bearing. Whether the nut and lockplate are also there is likely but as I say, I didn't look. If I have time, I'll run by Frady's and dismount the hub and see what's left in there. What I see is consistent with the inner bearing expiring for whatever reason, and the subsequent damage. Frady says he has used spindle, plate, and hub. I've another spacer, nut, and lockplate on the way.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] Loooong trip home [message #249230 is a reply to message #249228] |
Fri, 09 May 2014 09:28 |
Mr ERFisher
Messages: 7117
Registered: August 2005
Karma: 2
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a link might help
erf
On Fri, May 9, 2014 at 7:28 AM, gene Fisher wrote:
>
>
>
> On Fri, May 9, 2014 at 7:15 AM, George Zhookoff George.Zhookoff@haskell.com> wrote:
>
>> "What I read is that the space required for the Reaction Brake Kit makes
>> the spindle short for the lock nut to have a keyed washer and cotter pin
>> lock."
>>
>
> like this ?
>
>
http://www.machinesoflovinggrace.net/gmc/brakes/
> There are other brands of Brake Reaction Arm Systems that maintain the
>> castle nut and cotter pin.
>> George "Reaction Arm Raffle Winner" Zhookoff
>> 78 EL II
>> Snellville, GA
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
> “Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
> -------
> http://gmcmotorhome.info/
> Alternator Protection Cable
> http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
>
--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
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| Re: Loooong trip home [message #249236 is a reply to message #249099] |
Fri, 09 May 2014 11:39 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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Senior Member |
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I'm interested in finding out what is in the hubcap. Yes, Manny's disc RA system used cotter keys. Tom Pryor's Drum brake RA system uses lock plates. Both should be fine in that regards. Nothing new with either system.
What I CAN'T get my head around is HOW THE HECK the hub could depart the spindle with the nut still on the shaft and if the nut came off why? I can see how the inner bearing could fail, go away, chew up and destroy the seating area of the spindle but if the spindle is intact, the outer race can't come off the spindle until the nut is removed because it's physically smaller than the nut...not to mention the washer. I can envision a scenario where enough pressure was applied by the wheel losing the inner bearing that the spindle nut stripped and came off. I'm hoping this is the case. If the nut or spindle is not stripped there is another issue entirely and the inner bearing failure could have been caused by the lack of preload not over preload.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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| Re: Loooong trip home [message #249238 is a reply to message #249103] |
Fri, 09 May 2014 11:57 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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Johnny Bridges wrote on Mon, 05 May 2014 07:49Update -
The body will be delivered to Zeb Frady at Southland in Buford. His caveat 'We're a couple weeks behind...' so what. It will get fixed properly.
In retrospect, I imagine I failed the seal when I reinstalled the wheel. reasoning - it went 300 miles to failure at freeway speeds. That's just about long enough for the grease to spit out of the inner bearing (grease was everywhere on the drum, backing plate, etc) and it to fail. Oh well, it's only money.....
johnny
'76 23' transmode norris (with a sore paw)
'13 model BWD
Johnny--I just recently ran some bearing abuse tests. One was a lack of grease. Those bearings ran almost forever with no overheating nor failure. However, they still had a thin film of lubrication on them. Then I thoroughly washed them in degreaser to remove even body oils from handling and assembly. Then they failed very quickly, overheated and then seized. So in your case, I doubt that the seal failure would even remotely cause what you saw unless it was years ago and contaminants got in. On the other hand, overtightening could be at the root of the failure. How did you adjust the races?
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] Loooong trip home [message #249239 is a reply to message #249236] |
Fri, 09 May 2014 12:04 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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I am not criticizing anything here, but the spindle/hub bearings on the GMC
motor home have very specific procedures for correct assembly. If it were
my coach, this is how I would adjust the bearings. Correctly assemble the
hub and bearings, place the washer and nut on the threads on the spindle
and then torque the nut to 25 - 30 foot pounds. Back off the nut, without
disturbing the drum, one half turn. Then, using your fingers on the nut,
tighten the nut until resistance is felt. At this point, see if the cotter
key hole in the spindle aligns with the slot in the nut. If it does, insert
the cotter key. If it does not, then UNSCREW the nut to the closest slot
that will line up and insert the cotter key. Do not tighten beyond the
point where resistance is felt with your fingers. This is contrary to
common practice with Timken roller bearing adjustments, but the GMC manual
gives very specific instructions on adjustment on these bearings. I have
NOT had bearing failures using this method, but have had failures by over
tightening them. Just what I have experienced. Your results may vary.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403
On May 9, 2014 9:39 AM, "Kerry Pinkerton" wrote:
>
> I'm interested in finding out what is in the hubcap. Yes, Manny's disc
RA system used cotter keys. Tom Pryor's Drum brake RA system uses lock
> plates. Both should be fine in that regards. Nothing new with either
system.
>
> What I CAN'T get my head around is HOW THE HECK the hub could depart the
spindle with the nut still on the shaft and if the nut came off why? I can
> see how the inner bearing could fail, go away, chew up and destroy the
seating area of the spindle but if the spindle is intact, the outer race
can't
> come off the spindle until the nut is removed because it's physically
smaller than the nut...not to mention the washer. I can envision a scenario
> where enough pressure was applied by the wheel losing the inner bearing
that the spindle nut stripped and came off. I'm hoping this is the case.
If
> the nut or spindle is not stripped there is another issue entirely and
the inner bearing failure could have been caused by the lack of preload not
> over preload.
> --
> Kerry Pinkerton
>
> North Alabama, near Huntsville,
>
> 77 Eleganza II, "The Lady", 403CI, also a 76 Eleganza being re-bodied as
an Art Deco car hauler
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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| Re: [GMCnet] Loooong trip home [message #249241 is a reply to message #249239] |
Fri, 09 May 2014 12:16 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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James Hupy wrote on Fri, 09 May 2014 11:04I am not criticizing anything here, but the spindle/hub bearings on the GMC
motor home have very specific procedures for correct assembly. If it were
my coach, this is how I would adjust the bearings. Correctly assemble the
hub and bearings, place the washer and nut on the threads on the spindle
and then torque the nut to 25 - 30 foot pounds. Back off the nut, without
disturbing the drum, one half turn. Then, using your fingers on the nut,
tighten the nut until resistance is felt. At this point, see if the cotter
key hole in the spindle aligns with the slot in the nut. If it does, insert
the cotter key. If it does not, then UNSCREW the nut to the closest slot
that will line up and insert the cotter key. Do not tighten beyond the
point where resistance is felt with your fingers. This is contrary to
common practice with Timken roller bearing adjustments, but the GMC manual
gives very specific instructions on adjustment on these bearings. I have
NOT had bearing failures using this method, but have had failures by over
tightening them. Just what I have experienced. Your results may vary.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403
On May 9, 2014 9:39 AM, "Kerry Pinkerton" wrote:
>
> I'm interested in finding out what is in the hubcap. Yes, Manny's disc
RA system used cotter keys. Tom Pryor's Drum brake RA system uses lock
> plates. Both should be fine in that regards. Nothing new with either
system.
>
> What I CAN'T get my head around is HOW THE HECK the hub could depart the
spindle with the nut still on the shaft and if the nut came off why? I can
> see how the inner bearing could fail, go away, chew up and destroy the
seating area of the spindle but if the spindle is intact, the outer race
can't
> come off the spindle until the nut is removed because it's physically
smaller than the nut...not to mention the washer. I can envision a scenario
> where enough pressure was applied by the wheel losing the inner bearing
that the spindle nut stripped and came off. I'm hoping this is the case.
If
> the nut or spindle is not stripped there is another issue entirely and
the inner bearing failure could have been caused by the lack of preload not
> over preload.
> --
> Kerry Pinkerton
>
> North Alabama, near Huntsville,
>
> 77 Eleganza II, "The Lady", 403CI, also a 76 Eleganza being re-bodied as
an Art Deco car hauler
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Jim, that is the procedure we use on all of our tapered bearing trailers as well--with great success.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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This one gets a full nut, which is the only concern I see with the spindle. It uses the original slotted nut. When I assembled it, it looked like the hole would be close if not accessible - the nut is only about .250 or so out.