Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] S & J Engine Failure Report
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| Re: [GMCnet] S & J Engine Failure Report [message #248323 is a reply to message #248301] |
Wed, 23 April 2014 21:44   |
Steve
Messages: 506
Registered: September 2013
Location: East Greenville, Pa
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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I hate to see this. Difficult on both sides. No winners.
1978 GMC Royal
Eastern Pennslyvania
1968 Chevrolet C20 396 Camper Special
1969 Chevrolet C20 Camper Special
1985 Buick Electra Park Avenue
1992 Camaro 25th Anniversary Heretage Edition Black
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| Re: [GMCnet] S & J Engine Failure Report [message #248335 is a reply to message #248301] |
Wed, 23 April 2014 22:37 |
powerjon
Messages: 2446
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 5
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Senior Member |
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To All,
S&J only presented the info they want to back up their warrantee which is apparently not worth the paper it is written on. The problem is that they did not include any other the pictures that were sent to them that showed the damage that was done to the engine after only 350 miles. S&J needed to tell the whole story when they make comments on someone else's work. The motor was not installed by Applied GMC. It was install in Las Cruces, NM by an experienced Auto/Truck shop that had done several GMC engine replacement in the past. They also preluded the motor before starting! The motor was disassembled in Tucson by the same guy and shop ( Master engine builder with 40+ years experience ) that built Dan Gregg’s GMC motor couple of years ago. The first thing that he saw was massive amount of bearing material plastered around the internals of the engine and that had clogged the oil pump intake screen and caused the oil pressure to drop very low. The second was that was discovered was that the #7 rod cap was not the same inside diameter as the rod end, it was bigger allowing the cap end bearing half to move. You could feel the difference in size with your finger. The main bearings were damaged because of the large amount of material that passed thru the engine and the clogged oil pump screen and reduced the oil pressure. The cap side of the rod bearing was almost totally destroyed whereas the rod size was in somewhat better shape. How come S&J didn’t show the rod bearings in pictures? All the other bearing damage including the main bearings was caused by all the bearing material passing thru the engine. The rod bearing failure cause the piston to hit both the head and the crank and it also needed to replaced which was sourced by S&J. S&J was consulted several times and pictures were sent and they were given all the parts except the crank which was also replaced. S&J would not have discovered anything different if they have disassembled the engine themselves. By the time that the engine would have gone back to S&J for review, rebuild and returned and installed it would have be 5 to 7 weeks in which Mr. Dohm needed be going home in a little over 3 weeks. As far as I am concerned S&J is hiding behind its warrantee instead in standing behind it.
The motor pictures are here:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g6593-ed-dhoms-motor-pictures.html
JR
On Apr 23, 2014, at 7:29 PM, Robert Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au> wrote:
> G'day,
>
> I just posted a report from S & J on an engine that failed.
>
> I have uploaded this report and photographs to present S&J's side of the story.
>
> It DOES NOT mean I agree with or support their conclusions nor will I make any comments or enter in any discussion about it.
>
> WYSIWYG! ;-)
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g6599-s-amp-j-engine-short-block-failure.html
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> Sydney, Australia
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
JR Wright
GMC Great Laker MHC
GMC Eastern States
GMCMHI
78 GMC Buskirk 30’ Stretch
1975 GMC Avion (Under Reconstruction)
Michigan
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J.R. Wright
GMC GreatLaker
GMC Eastern States
GMCMI
78 30' Buskirk Stretch
75 Avion Under Reconstruction
Michigan
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| Re: [GMCnet] S & J Engine Failure Report [message #248342 is a reply to message #248335] |
Thu, 24 April 2014 05:58 |
Kingsley Coach
Messages: 2691
Registered: March 2009
Location: Nova Scotia Canada
Karma: -34
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Senior Member |
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John
Who installed the engine in Las Cruces...just in case I ever need to know.
Tks
Mike in NS
On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 12:37 AM, John Wright <powerjon@chartermi.net>wrote:
> To All,
> S&J only presented the info they want to back up their warrantee which is
> apparently not worth the paper it is written on. The problem is that they
> did not include any other the pictures that were sent to them that showed
> the damage that was done to the engine after only 350 miles. S&J needed to
> tell the whole story when they make comments on someone else's work. The
> motor was not installed by Applied GMC. It was install in Las Cruces, NM by
> an experienced Auto/Truck shop that had done several GMC engine replacement
> in the past. They also preluded the motor before starting! The motor was
> disassembled in Tucson by the same guy and shop ( Master engine builder
> with 40+ years experience ) that built Dan Gregg’s GMC motor couple of
> years ago. The first thing that he saw was massive amount of bearing
> material plastered around the internals of the engine and that had clogged
> the oil pump intake screen and caused the oil pressure to drop very low.
> The second was that was discovered was that the #7 rod cap was not the same
> inside diameter as the rod end, it was bigger allowing the cap end bearing
> half to move. You could feel the difference in size with your finger. The
> main bearings were damaged because of the large amount of material that
> passed thru the engine and the clogged oil pump screen and reduced the oil
> pressure. The cap side of the rod bearing was almost totally destroyed
> whereas the rod size was in somewhat better shape. How come S&J didn’t show
> the rod bearings in pictures? All the other bearing damage including the
> main bearings was caused by all the bearing material passing thru the
> engine. The rod bearing failure cause the piston to hit both the head and
> the crank and it also needed to replaced which was sourced by S&J. S&J was
> consulted several times and pictures were sent and they were given all the
> parts except the crank which was also replaced. S&J would not have
> discovered anything different if they have disassembled the engine
> themselves. By the time that the engine would have gone back to S&J for
> review, rebuild and returned and installed it would have be 5 to 7 weeks in
> which Mr. Dohm needed be going home in a little over 3 weeks. As far as I
> am concerned S&J is hiding behind its warrantee instead in standing behind
> it.
>
> The motor pictures are here:
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g6593-ed-dhoms-motor-pictures.html
>
> JR
>
> On Apr 23, 2014, at 7:29 PM, Robert Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au>
> wrote:
>
> > G'day,
> >
> > I just posted a report from S & J on an engine that failed.
> >
> > I have uploaded this report and photographs to present S&J's side of the
> story.
> >
> > It DOES NOT mean I agree with or support their conclusions nor will I
> make any comments or enter in any discussion about it.
> >
> > WYSIWYG! ;-)
> >
> >
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g6599-s-amp-j-engine-short-block-failure.html
> >
> > Regards,
> > Rob M.
> > Sydney, Australia
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
>
>
> JR Wright
> GMC Great Laker MHC
> GMC Eastern States
> GMCMHI
> 78 GMC Buskirk 30’ Stretch
> 1975 GMC Avion (Under Reconstruction)
> Michigan
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Michael Beaton
1977 Kingsley 26-11
1977 Eleganza II 26-3
Antigonish, NS
* At my age, getting lucky means walking into a room and remembering what I
came for.
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| Re: [GMCnet] S & J Engine Failure Report [message #248347 is a reply to message #248301] |
Thu, 24 April 2014 07:37 |
jknezek
Messages: 1057
Registered: December 2007
Karma: 5
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Senior Member |
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There are two sides to everything. But I will say that if the warranty states the engine must be shipped back to get warranty service, and you can't or won't do that, then you are really throwing yourself on their mercy. Maybe you'll get it, but in my experience if you want warranty coverage, you have to follow the policy. Even when it is a pain in the rear.
Either way, this is extremely unfortunate for all involved.
Thanks,
Jeremy Knezek
1976 Glenbrook
Birmingham, AL
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| Re: [GMCnet] S & J Engine Failure Report [message #248354 is a reply to message #248347] |
Thu, 24 April 2014 09:27 |
Keith V
Messages: 2337
Registered: March 2008
Location: Mounds View,MN
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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The number 7/4 rod cap is very suspicious.
I don't see a casting flaw, I see a #1 with a #7 stamped on top of it ( or a 7 with a 1 stamped on top ).
Someone restamped it, Factory or assembler, but it is sure questionable
Keith Vasilakes
Mounds View. MN
75 ex Royale GMC
ask me about MicroLevel
Cell, 763-732-3419
My427v8@hotmail.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] S & J Engine Failure Report [message #248369 is a reply to message #248366] |
Thu, 24 April 2014 13:42 |
Keith V
Messages: 2337
Registered: March 2008
Location: Mounds View,MN
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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A LONG LONG time ago a buddy of mine bought an engine, "rebuilt broken and ready to go" got it in, tried to start it and the starter would barely turn in over. replaced the starter.. same thing...Another buddy came by with his tow truck and a 24v jump pack.. Still barely turned...
so its not us. brought it back and told the builder what happened and after he was done yelling he refunded the $$.
A few days later the builder comes screaming into my buddys drive way, runs into the garage and starts looking at the 2-3 engine blocks stored in there swearing up a storm about how we switched caps...
we were like? Why would we do that! We wanted that engine!
he finally realized he was the one that put the wrong cap on....
I'm pretty sure thats basically what happened here...
Keith Vasilakes
Mounds View. MN
75 ex Royale GMC
ask me about MicroLevel
Cell, 763-732-3419
My427v8@hotmail.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] S & J Engine Failure Report [message #248465 is a reply to message #248386] |
Fri, 25 April 2014 14:50 |
powerjon
Messages: 2446
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 5
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Senior Member |
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Mr. Smith,
You say that you were not invited to the discussion. For the record which you are apparently not up to date on what has transpired within your own company and employees. You started this discussion! You brought this on yourself! You guys cannot even get your stories straight.
There were 2 items posted, one on Facebook and one here on the GMC Net and both were online before my response to them. The first items released on Facebook was post by a Mr. Nichol who my or may not be an employee of S & J, but sure sounds like one and the second by Jeffery L. Johnson who is in your Warranty Department. None of this was brought up by me until these 2 items were posted and then you posted complaining that that you were blind sided after you read my response, get real!
First item Dated April 18th on Facebook:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/ed-dhoms-motor-pictures/p54493-mr-nichol-s-facebooks-coments.html
This is the second post from S & J shortly there after:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/s-amp-j-engine-short-block-failure/p54456-s-amp-j-report.html
By you own response from the warranty dept. Mr. Dohm had contacted S & J the next day after the engine had failed just before Tucson and that was the end of the third week in February. The order for the short block was originally placed on the 1/16/14 and it took you almost 2 weeks to build the short block and a week to have it shipped. The installer took about another 10 days and because you had sent the wrong gasket set with the short block and he had to order the correct set to reassemble the engine which added days to build and installation. A new oil pump was used in the build and the engine was prelubed before starting. Applied GMC was not involved in the actual assembly and installation of the engine. They did ship you a short block as a core.
I would suggest you take another look at the rod bearing pictures and the amount of bearing material on the inside of the engine that failed after about 350 miles. It beat the crap out of the rod end indicating the cap end was larger than the rod end as that part of the bearing was in poor but intact condition. The cap side bearing was so bad that the piston was hitting both the head and the crank and that was also replaced. You sourced oil the .040 over piston for the rebuilder in Tucson. The mains were damage because of all the bearing material that passed thru the engine before the oil pump screen was almost plug causing low oil pressure and further causing damage to the bearings.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g6593-ed-dhoms-motor-pictures.html
You not typing to a bunch of individuals that don’t understand how engines are built. Many of us have extensive experience on building and testing engines. As for your comments on the numbering of the rods, that is a common practice when disassembling engines for rebuild, of course GM doesn’t number the rods from the factory. Remember the rods were marked by you, not Mr. Dohm or the repair shop in Tucson.
What does the SIM-Test show on short block other than the existence of an acceptable oil pressure and how easy the rotating assembly is turning ( torque requirements ). With a digital readout on the oil pressure you cannot see a small fluctuation in oil pressure. You would need an analog gauge or a video display showing pressure over time to see that. I saw your demo on your website, there is no load on the rod bearings without the heads installed as you do for your long block SIM-Test when you compression test each cylinder.
The way that you have treated Mr. Dohm and not trying to work with him because of the time issues and your general attitude and lack of good will was a poor business decision. He called several times and sent you all the bad parts except for the crank and pictures of the damage, what else would you have discovered?
This will be my last comments on the Subject, no furthers emails, I am done with this.
>
>
> We're really dismayed to see a public venting of Mr. Dohm's situation, especially when a directly involved party (us) were not invited to the discussion. For the record:
>
> According to Mr.Dohm, he experienced an engine failure shortly after installing a short block he purchased from us. He stated there was some confusion on whether we mixed up the #7 connecting rod with the # 4 rod cap. GM does not number their rods or the rod caps.
>
> When we disassemble a GM engine we must number the connecting rods and the corresponding rod caps before they are removed from the engine. When we stamped the number 7 on the connecting rod on the short block we manufactured for Mr. Dohm it does look like a 4 but if you look at the stamp you can see there was a line on the connecting rod that intersects the 7. In any case if the #7 connecting rod was mixed up with the # 4 rod cap the #4 connecting rod should have had # 7 cap installed - which was not case. The # 4 connecting rod had the #4 rod cap: they were installed correctly.
>
> It must be noted we tested Mr.Dohm's short block on a Sim-test run in machine after it was assembled and it met or exceeded all GM OEM specifications. This is documented.
>
> Mr. Dohm had the short block repaired before contacting us which obviously leaves us with few options. He did not return our product so we could diagnoses the problem or make any repairs ourselves nor did he did not allow us to participate in the diagnoses or supply any required parts. His decision to repair the short block by another entity outside of our facility was beyond the terms of the warranty contract issued with his short block.
>
> Have you ever heard of any manufacture allowing someone to replace their product with a competitor's product without being able to at least look at the failed part and/or being allowed to replace or repair the product themselves?
>
> We do not ‘hide behind’ our warranty. Indeed we back it fully. Things can and do go wrong in engines and ours are not immune to this law. And when things go south on one of our engines we go to great lengths to ensure that A: we understand what happened exactly and more importantly, B: we get our customer ‘s situation righted in the fastest, most responsive manner possible.
>
> _______________________________________________
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J.R. Wright
GMC GreatLaker
GMC Eastern States
GMCMI
78 30' Buskirk Stretch
75 Avion Under Reconstruction
Michigan
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| Re: [GMCnet] S & J Engine Failure Report [message #248495 is a reply to message #248301] |
Fri, 25 April 2014 22:29 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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I am really confused at this point. I need a program so I can tell who all of these players are. I probably also need an outline so I can figure out what the story line is here. I obviously missed some of the episodes.
We have a blown engine, We have a rebuilder, We have an assembler, We have an installer, We have a vendor that suppled a core, somewhere in this mess we have an owner, and then we have about 6 or 8 other posters with opinions and maybe some knowledge of the situation.
What was the purpose of this thread? It sounds like a real who-dun-it without a conclusion.
I'm waiting for the next installment so I can try to figure out who the culprit is and what he did.
"Do not forget to have mom buy Ovaltine" and send in 10 box tops for your free decoded ring."
"Tune in next time for the continuing saga of the blown engine."
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] S & J Engine Failure Report [message #248497 is a reply to message #248495] |
Fri, 25 April 2014 22:34 |
k2gkk
Messages: 4452
Registered: November 2009
Karma: -8
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Senior Member |
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Hey, Ken and all! Just a reminder that in a pi$$ing contest EVERYBODY gets wet and stinky!
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ D C "Mac" Macdonald ~ ~~
~ ~ Amateur Radio - K2GKK ~ ~
~ ~ USAF and FAA, Retired ~ ~
~ ~ ~ Oklahoma City, OK ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ ~ "The Money Pit" ~ ~ ~~
~ ~ ~ ~ TZE166V101966 ~ ~ ~ ~
~ ~ ~ '76 ex-Palm Beach ~ ~ ~
~~ k2gkk + hotmail dot com ~~
~ www.gmcmhphotos.com/okclb ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
______________
*[ ]~~~[][ ][|\
*--OO--[]---O-*
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> From: n9cv@comcast.net
> Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2014 22:29:14 -0500
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] S & J Engine Failure Report
>
>
>
> I am really confused at this point. I need a program so I can tell who all of these players are. I probably also need an outline so I can figure out what the story line is here. I obviously missed some of the episodes.
>
> We have a blown engine, We have a rebuilder, We have an assembler, We have an installer, We have a vendor that suppled a core, somewhere in this mess we have an owner, and then we have about 6 or 8 other posters with opinions and maybe some knowledge of the situation.
>
> What was the purpose of this thread? It sounds like a real who-dun-it without a conclusion.
>
> I'm waiting for the next installment so I can try to figure out who the culprit is and what he did.
>
> "Do not forget to have mom buy Ovaltine" and send in 10 box tops for your free decoded ring."
>
> "Tune in next time for the continuing saga of the blown engine."
>
> --
> Ken Burton - N9KB
> 76 Palm Beach
> Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] S & J Engine Failure Report [message #248501 is a reply to message #248495] |
Fri, 25 April 2014 23:06 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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| Ken Burton wrote on Fri, 25 April 2014 21:29 |
I am really confused at this point. I need a program so I can tell who all of these players are. I probably also need an outline so I can figure out what the story line is here. I obviously missed some of the episodes.
We have a blown engine, We have a rebuilder, We have an assembler, We have an installer, We have a vendor that suppled a core, somewhere in this mess we have an owner, and then we have about 6 or 8 other posters with opinions and maybe some knowledge of the situation.
What was the purpose of this thread? It sounds like a real who-dun-it without a conclusion.
I'm waiting for the next installment so I can try to figure out who the culprit is and what he did.
"Do not forget to have mom buy Ovaltine" and send in 10 box tops for your free decoded ring."
"Tune in next time for the continuing saga of the blown engine."
|
Ken- I'm with you on this. I have no idea what started this and frankly I see both sides of this interchange. I don't think this forum is the right place to have a war of the words and I think lesser of both parties involved.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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