Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] Help with Brakes List
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Help with Brakes List [message #243257 is a reply to message #243254] |
Wed, 12 March 2014 22:37   |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Thanks, Hal. The title probably should be changed -- I'm really only
trying to cover rear discs, for the rear suspension seminar at Montgomery.
Ken H.
On Wed, Mar 12, 2014 at 11:24 PM, Hal Kading wrote:
>
>
> Ken,
>
> Larger front discs and calipers(?) with the one ton. Jim K. & Manny.
>
> I don't think Harrison had larger discs on front, just the 80 mm calipers.
>
> Hal
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Help with Brakes List [message #243302 is a reply to message #243264] |
Thu, 13 March 2014 09:09 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Steve,
Yes, parking brakes for us are problematic, at best. There are two GM
caliper sizes: Pre-79 the Large calipers are 7" between the mounting
bolts. Post-78, the Small calipers are 5-1/2" between the mounting bolts.
There are at least a couple of bore sizes available in both Large and
Small calipers. And, "Parking" calipers, as used on Cadillacs (and
others), are available in both Large and Small. The problem is, as well
documented by Albert Branscombe, those parking calipers all use the same
basic, very trouble-prone design -- even the new ones being sold by TSM.
They don't work well when new, immediately begin to deteriorate, and are
frequently damaged during pad replacement because of peculiar tool and
procedure requirements. Plus, they must be used FREQENTLY to preserve
correct adjustment. All-in-all, hardly worth fooling with -- I gave up on
them 10 years ago.
There is another parking caliper design available, the Kelsey-Hayes, as
used on many Ford products. The problem there is that they require an
entirely different, more complex, caliper mount than the GM designs. And,
in the large sizes we need, they're scarce. Albert Branscombe is the
expert on those and has worked with some of the reaction arm suppliers
toward incorporating them; I don't know the current status.
For a really good mechanical parking brake, some sort of drum is probably
best -- but still carries the other drum deficiencies. Drums at the rear
with discs at the center may be a good choice.
Personally, I don't have a mechanical parking brake, but I do have a very
effective 6-wheel (10-wheel when towing) parking system. While redundant,
it does use the hydraulic system so is not an independent mechanical
system. I have a pneumatic cylinder mounted beneath the floorboard. A
chain attached to the brake pedal pulls it down when a small, pressure
switch-controlled, compressor is activated. The compressor runs rarely and
briefly to make up for any pressure losses. This is, IMHO, a much better
solution than a hydraulic line lock because it actively compensates for
hydraulic or pneumatic leaks -- as long as the battery holds out. And it
will hold the GMC on the steepest hill it can climb.
Fortunately, we don't have inspections for such things in GA.
Ken H.
Americus, GA
'76 X-Birchaven w/Cad500/Howell EFI & EBL
www.gmcwipersetc.com
On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 1:20 AM, Steve Weinstock wrote:
>
>
> Thanks for doing this Ken !!
>
> I'm interested in a set of rear brakes with reaction arms - and sure would
> like parking brakes too...
>
> Your list suggest that they're available in the disc systems. I thought
> such a configuration was pretty elusive. Not correct ??
>
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Help with Brakes List [message #243310 is a reply to message #243299] |
Thu, 13 March 2014 09:55 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
|
Senior Member |
|
|
| Thomas Pryor wrote on Thu, 13 March 2014 08:56 |
DISC PARKING BRAKES HAVE PROVEN TO BE WHOLLY INEFFECTIVE FOR VARIOUS
REASONS. Drum Parking brakes that are maintained appear to be the only mechanical choice at this time.
...
|
Tom, "DISC PARKING BRAKES HAVE PROVEN TO BE WHOLLY INEFFECTIVE.." is an absolute and unfortunately for absolutes in general and this one in particular is not accurate. Were you listening to Albert Branscomb's presentation at Branson? His Kelsey Haye's disc systems have perfectly fine parking brakes.
Your statement should read, "Some (or even MOST) disc systems have ineffective mechanical parking brakes." I will agree with that.
Btw, Recording the scarcity of the KH caliper, I was able to order a pair of 76 MK V Kelsey Hayes calipers from Advance Auto. They were $55 which included a $5 core charge since I didn't have cores. However, they do not include the lever for the parking brake and it's a weird key. The one remaining thing missing is a caliper mounting plate that works with various brake systems/reaction arms.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] help with Brakes list [message #243372 is a reply to message #243251] |
Thu, 13 March 2014 16:52 |
Thomas Pryor
Messages: 143
Registered: January 2011
Karma: 1
|
Senior Member |
|
|
KERRY Pinkerton wrote on Thu, 13 Mar 2014 09:55:17 -0500
"DISC PARKING BRAKES HAVE PROVEN TO BE WHOLLY INEFFECTIVE.." is an absolute
and unfortunately for absolutes in general and this one in particular is
not accurate. Were you listening to Albert Branscomb's presentation at
Branson? His Kelsey Haye's disc systems have perfectly fine parking brakes.
Yes, Kerry I did, but I did not selectively listen! He was quick to
inform us that he had Harvested calipers for just over 10 coaches to use as
experimental specimens. He does not advertise these as purchase items on
his web site. We don't have enough cadavers left in the morgue to harvest &
make them viable for manufacturing. BTW the KH calipers have a 7.05"
mount, your system is 5+inches and not just a bolt in situation.
(PatMcCleish, Senior Tech, Centric Parts, StopTech )
>
> advises that all of the Caliper type Parking brakes have been abandoned
because of reliability problems and adjustment systems that don't live.
> Including the PB on your coach! HE IS MY WHOLLY INEFFECTIVE PB COACH!
> To again refresh your memory about Albert Branscomb's Presentation
> referring to your coach's Rear Disc system that utilizes the Smaller GM
> metric Caliper:
> (Quote) However on the rear of the coach, with an established dynamic
> weight of at least 7,600 lbs, we are proposing a set of brakes designed for
> a mid-sized car weighing between 3,500 and 4,000 lbs. I.E..INCREASE THE
> LOAD AND REDUCE THE BRAKING FORCE! just don't seem like the thing one would
> want to do? (end Quote)(from his PP presentation)
I concur with Albert on his statements. My investigations with
WilwoodEngineering and
SSB Who make single piston GMC duplicate Calipers for the aftermarket WOULD
NOT RECOMMEND the small GM caliper for service brakes on the rear of our
coaches. (MULTIPLE PISTON OR SINGLE PISTON.)
SEE Wilwood GMIII and GM Metric at http://www.wilwood.com/Calipers/
CaliperList.aspx?subname=GM%20Single%20Piston
> The industry, foreign & domestic, Parking Brake designs have given way
> Drum in Hat or shoe type Parking brake systems Because they work, are
> Mechanical, and are not sharing friction material with service brakes.
At some point Terry I can only hope you would make a commitment to help
find a legal and useful comment or solution rather than shooting the
messenger. We, all of us, are on the 50 yd line trying make a TD, stay in
bounds and do no harm.
On a less serious note I've named my 23' trans mode MADDAY! Why such a
distressed name, you ask? She's hard aground in my Garage.
--
Regards,
Tom Pryor
4188 Limerick Dr
Lake Wales, Fl 33859
Cell 248 470 9186
Living on a waterfront is not a matter of life or death. Its more
important than that.
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] help with Brakes list [message #243385 is a reply to message #243372] |
Thu, 13 March 2014 19:11 |
78 Barbi
Messages: 80
Registered: August 2004
Location: Tiverton, Ontario , Canad...
Karma: -1
|
Member |
|
|
Tom Pryor writes :
(PatMcCleish, Senior Tech, Centric Parts, StopTech )
advises that all of the Caliper type Parking brakes have been abandoned because of reliability problems and adjustment systems that don't live Including the PB on your coach! HE IS MY WHOLLY INEFFECTIVE PB COACH!
Hey Tom ,
Sorry to advise otherwise ; but Pat McCleish is “full of crap” as referenced to the statement below from TRW in Lavonia , MI , TRW is the company that bought out Kelsey Hayes Automotive division. They still manufacture the ‘ ball in ramp “ parking brake caliper in rather significant quantities ie. Read : 500 million plus globally .
Drum in Hat parking brakes have become viable because rotors have gotten larger and larger , this is strictly economics , in that it’s much cheaper to make a larger rotor with two wee brake shoes than it is to make an integrated park brake caliper .
Regards………Albert
78 Barbi , The 23 foot Birchaven
Tiverton, ON
The Colette design, invented by TRW, is the most widely fitted floating caliper (500 million-plus globally). It is available for front brakes in both single and twin piston versions. COLETTE IPB CALIPER In addition to beneficial Colette features, the Integrated Parking Brake caliper features a highly efficient, ball-in-ramp actuating system and a variable cable connection port to allow for flexible packaging.
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] help with Brakes list [message #243390 is a reply to message #243385] |
Thu, 13 March 2014 20:29 |
 |
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Albert,
I found the two articles on the Cadillac disk brakes with parking brakes built into them you told me about.
I've pasted links below.
The first one is by Lars Pedersen describing how to clean them up and make them work as good as the can:
http://classicbroncos.com/reardiscs.shtml
The second is a Service Book.
http://www.modifiedcadillac.org/documents/1970s/1978/1978%20Brougham%20Seville%204%20wheel%20disc%20diagnostics/
I realize that the Kelsey Hayes calipers are much better but if you've already got these on a GMC these documents will help you get
them to work as well as the can and keep them that way.
Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Albert&Sheila Branscombe
Tom Pryor writes :
(PatMcCleish, Senior Tech, Centric Parts, StopTech )
advises that all of the Caliper type Parking brakes have been abandoned because of reliability problems and adjustment systems that
don't live Including the PB on your coach! HE IS MY WHOLLY INEFFECTIVE PB COACH!
Hey Tom ,
Sorry to advise otherwise ; but Pat McCleish is “full of crap” as referenced to the statement below from TRW in
Lavonia , MI , TRW is the company that bought out Kelsey Hayes Automotive division. They still manufacture the ‘ ball in
ramp “ parking brake caliper in rather significant quantities ie. Read : 500 million plus globally .
Drum in Hat parking brakes have become viable because rotors have gotten larger and larger , this is strictly economics , in
that it’s much cheaper to make a larger rotor with two wee brake shoes than it is to make an integrated park brake caliper .
Regards………Albert
78 Barbi , The 23 foot Birchaven
Tiverton, ON
The Colette design, invented by TRW, is the most widely fitted floating caliper (500 million-plus globally). It is available for
front brakes in both single and twin piston versions. COLETTE IPB CALIPER In addition to beneficial Colette features, the Integrated
Parking Brake caliper features a highly efficient, ball-in-ramp actuating system and a variable cable connection port to allow for
flexible packaging.
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Help with Brakes List [message #243393 is a reply to message #243289] |
Thu, 13 March 2014 20:44 |
|
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
|
Senior Member |
|
|
G'day,
To make sure there is NO misunderstanding the reaction arm systems make a GMC's braking as good as it gets.
Double Trouble does not have one; it has 80mm calipers on the front, Caddy disks / calipers (?? mm) on the middle wheels (no parking
brake) and drum on the rears with parking brake (wheel cylinder ID - Dunno). All pads and shoes are carbon metallic.
I'll let Dan Gregg tell you how it stops.
As I understand it the Caddy calipers are problematic if they are not used consistently and maintained properly.
The Lincoln calipers were made by Kelsey Hayes and you are correct they are rare but I just checked and found some on the internet
for $55.00 each with free shipping! I didn't save the URL so don't ask.
Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: Matt Colie
Steve,
As I understand this, the Cadillac calipers with mechanical parking brake are problematic at best. There is a parking brake caliper
that was used on Lincolns that is good, but the supply is limited. As far as I know, that is your two choices there.
Tom Pryor has successfully assembled a couple of systems now with his floating brakes and disk intermediate and drum rear with the
mechanical brake only active on the rear. This allows the power of the mechanical system to be concentrated on the rear and he
reported that it will provide a completely satisfactory parking brake this way.
I have the rear drums floating with the Applied/Pryor system and Mary (she drives most daylight) loves them.
Matt
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] help with Brakes list [message #243397 is a reply to message #243372] |
Thu, 13 March 2014 21:14 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
|
Senior Member |
|
|
| Thomas Pryor wrote on Thu, 13 March 2014 16:52 |
...
At some point Terry I can only hope you would make a commitment to help
find a legal and useful comment or solution rather than shooting the
messenger. We, all of us, are on the 50 yd line trying make a TD, stay in
bounds and do no harm....
|
Tom, at no point in my post did I make any reference to the disk brakes on my coach so I don't know why you brought it up. Except for Albert's KH units, NONE of the disks available for GMCs have decent parking brakes, including my Manny Brakes. I wasn't shooting the messenger, just pointing out that your ABSOLUTE statement, was not, and is not, accurate.
We don't have to agree.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] help with Brakes list [message #243403 is a reply to message #243385] |
Thu, 13 March 2014 21:35 |
A Hamilto
Messages: 4508
Registered: April 2011
Karma: 39
|
Senior Member |
|
|
| 78 Barbi wrote on Thu, 13 March 2014 19:11 |
...TRW is the company that bought out Kelsey Hayes Automotive division. They still manufacture the "ball in ramp" parking brake caliper in rather significant quantities ie. Read : 500 million plus globally .
Drum in Hat parking brakes have become viable because rotors have gotten larger and larger , this is strictly economics , in that it’s much cheaper to make a larger rotor with two wee brake shoes than it is to make an integrated park brake caliper .
Regards………Albert
78 Barbi , The 23 foot Birchaven
Tiverton, ON
The Colette design, invented by TRW, is the most widely fitted floating caliper (500 million-plus globally). It is available for front brakes in both single and twin piston versions. COLETTE IPB CALIPER In addition to beneficial Colette features, the Integrated Parking Brake caliper features a highly efficient, ball-in-ramp actuating system and a variable cable connection port to allow for flexible packaging.
|
Cool. What is (are) the part number(s) for one of their calipers, in current production, with integral parking brake capability, that would be appropriate for use on the rear wheels of a 1973 - 1978 GMC class A motorhome?
The $64,000 question.
I am not aware of a current production rear disk/disk system that has a working, and legal, mechanical parking brake subsystem.
Which is why I was concerned When Mr. Henderson mentioned that he planned to omit mention of the drum/drum system from his presentation. As of today, drums are the only "production" system for the GMC with the capability to include a working and legal parking/emergency brake.
Thanks in advance for any corrections.
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] help with Brakes list [message #243408 is a reply to message #243251] |
Thu, 13 March 2014 22:56 |
Thomas Pryor
Messages: 143
Registered: January 2011
Karma: 1
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Albert Branscombe Writes:
Hey Tom ,
Sorry to advise otherwise ; but Pat McCleish is “full of
crap” as referenced to the statement below from TRW in Lavonia , MI
Albert, it is all a matter of Perspective, Pat Mccleish lives in the world
of remaking and rebuilding calipers. He is probably not even aware of the
current TRW world. As you discussed in your presentation in Branson, we
have a wide variety of choices in braking. Basically price difference is
attributed to #1 R&D #2outside Manufacturing Costs #3 technical detail
costs. TRW has unlimited resources. In our world of diminishing resources,
we must make choices.
What could you bring to the table that will be cost effective and hold our
coaches from the TRW Menu? Wilwood makes a drum-in-hat PB that could
possibly be retro fitted to our coaches in the $2600 Range. Does not
include cables or hoses.
Also If you read on in the 2nd page of your quoted TRW Tech sheet below,
the Drum in hat technology is certainly embraced for its robustness of
holding a larger vehicle such as ours. But Alas it's only in our field of
Dreams.
I don't have a hearing problem, nor are brake industry sources full of
crap”
They walk the walk, We just talk the talk.
Enjoy the Montgomery Rally, sorry I have family matters that to enjoy.
--
DRUM IN HAT PARK BRAKES
TRW's Drum in Hat (DIH) park brakes are intended for larger, four-wheel
disc-brake vehicles. Service braking is accomplished by the rear caliper
while the DIH park brake provides improved park brake functionality. The
mounting for the caliper can be incorporated into the DIH adaptor when the
opportunity exists. With sizes available for a wide variety of
applications, TRW's DIH park brake applications are available for passenger
car and light- to heavy-duty truck segments.
TRW Drum-in-Hat park brakes offer the following features:
- Available in various sizes: 172mm x 22mm to 242mm x 62mm
- Mounting/guiding - integrated rails for RPS, bosses for Colette designs
- Flexibility for a variety of cable attachment designs
- High brake factor duo-servo geometry
- Integrated rotor splash shield
- Applications from passenger cars to heavy-duty trucks up to 8,800kgs
(19,500lbs) Gross Vehicle Weight
--
Regards,
Tom Pryor
4188 Limerick Dr
Lake Wales, Fl 33859
Cell 248 470 9186
Living on a waterfront is not a matter of life or death. Its more
important than that.
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] help with Brakes list [message #243416 is a reply to message #243403] |
Thu, 13 March 2014 23:45 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Where'd that come from? If you look at the brakes chart, you'll see that
drums receive billing right alongside discs, as appropriate. I've still
got the drums I removed from the rear when I replaced them with discs in
2002. If I ever truly need a mechanical parking brake, I may yet
re-install them.
Ken H.
On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 10:35 PM, A. wrote:
> ...
> Which is why I was concerned When Mr. Henderson mentioned that he planned
> to omit mention of the drum/drum system from his presentation. As of
> today, drums are the only "production" system for the GMC with the
> capability to include a working and legal parking/emergency brake.
> ...
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] help with Brakes list [message #243503 is a reply to message #243416] |
Fri, 14 March 2014 17:02 |
A Hamilto
Messages: 4508
Registered: April 2011
Karma: 39
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Best viewed on the forum where formatting has not been removed:| Ken Henderson wrote on Thu, 13 March 2014 23:45 |
Where'd that come from?
|
Here| Ken Henderson wrote on Wed, 12 March 2014 22:37 |
Thanks, Hal. The title probably should be changed -- I'm really only trying to cover rear discs, for the rear suspension seminar at Montgomery.
Ken H.
|
| Quote: |
If you look at the brakes chart, you'll see that drums receive billing right alongside discs, as appropriate.
|
I saw that, but figured from that previous post that, while visible on the chart, it would not have any other voice.
|
|
|
|
Goto Forum:
Current Time: Sat Oct 05 19:40:48 CDT 2024
Total time taken to generate the page: 0.02199 seconds
|
GMCforum
Search
Help
Register
Login
Home
