Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] Steering Box (Gear) Input Shaft
| [GMCnet] Steering Box (Gear) Input Shaft [message #242955] |
Mon, 10 March 2014 17:34  |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
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G'day,
Could someone that has a steering box out of a GMC put it on a bench and take some photos that clearly show the locations of the
bolt and the flat?
I would take the pictures but my spare steering box is 8,953 miles away in Humble, Texas. ;-)
Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Steering Box (Gear) Input Shaft [message #242964 is a reply to message #242959] |
Mon, 10 March 2014 18:35  |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Albert,
THANKS MATE!
While responding to Matt's email I realized we need to check a few more to verify that relationship was controlled during the
manufacturing process.
Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: Albert&Sheila Branscombe
Hey Rob,
I have the steering box from the same coach ( Owen Sound ON ) that Ken Burton got you the engine from . Just checked the
bolt relief cutout and the flat spot , they are not perpendicular , in fact they are at 75 degrees / 105 degrees. to each other.
Cheers .......Albert
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Steering Box (Gear) Input Shaft [message #242969 is a reply to message #242955] |
Mon, 10 March 2014 19:10 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
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The flat in the lower U joint is at an odd angle to the split and or bolt hole. Thus once installed it's difficult to eyeball. The drill bit test assures it it on the center of the 3 possible ( one correct) splines where the bolt will (reluctantly in the wrong 2 positions) go through.
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: [GMCnet] Steering Box (Gear) Input Shaft [message #242975 is a reply to message #242972] |
Mon, 10 March 2014 20:05 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Sean,
SPOT ON MATE! I never thunk of that!
That means the clamp / steering box spline are all machined the same!
So now someone that has gone through this procedure:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/random-photos/p52883-set-steering-box-highp.html
needs to post photo(s) showing the bolt orientation when the wheels are pointed straight ahead!
Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: Sean Kidd
Rob, don't forget, the clamp is cast/machined to slip on, there should be some continuity....
--
Sean
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Steering Box (Gear) Input Shaft [message #242977 is a reply to message #242955] |
Mon, 10 March 2014 20:10 |
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SeanKidd
Messages: 747
Registered: June 2012
Location: Northern Neck Virginia
Karma: 4
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Looks close, I just discovered I have an adjustable drag link too! I'll take mine aprt and look.
Sean and Stephanie
73 Ex-CanyonLands 26' #317 "Oliver"
Hubler 1-Ton, Quad-Bags, Rear Disc, Reaction Arms, P.Huber TBs, 3.70:1 LSD Honda 6500 inverter gen.
Colonial Travelers
[Updated on: Mon, 10 March 2014 20:14] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: [GMCnet] Steering Box (Gear) Input Shaft [message #242986 is a reply to message #242975] |
Mon, 10 March 2014 22:21 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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| USAussie wrote on Mon, 10 March 2014 21:05 |
Sean,
SPOT ON MATE! I never thunk of that!
That means the clamp / steering box spline are all machined the same!
So now someone that has gone through this procedure:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/random-photos/p52883-set-steering-box-highp.html
needs to post photo(s) showing the bolt orientation when the wheels are pointed straight ahead!
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: Sean Kidd
Rob, don't forget, the clamp is cast/machined to slip on, there should be some continuity....
--
Sean
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Yes guys, But they weren't machined all that well.....
Mine was loose enough so some prior "technician" put it together with the spine one tooth off and still (with careful hammering) managed to get the bolt though and tighten the clamp of the carden joint yoke. This was interesting as it made the assembly a prevailing torque non-reusable fastener.
I will try to take a picture of a proper assembly tomorrow, but I am going to bed now.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] Steering Box (Gear) Input Shaft [message #243052 is a reply to message #243025] |
Tue, 11 March 2014 18:55 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Matt,
I assume you had the front wheels pointed straight ahead when you took this photo.
I edited your photo with a white line across the top of the carden joint yoke bolt; I realize it is not accurate.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/random-photos/p52883-set-steering-box-highp.html
If you were to clamp a piece of steel on top of the bolt head and point it in the same direction as the white line would it not show
the relationship between the bolt head and rest of the steering box housing with the steering box on center and the wheels straight
ahead.
This would be useful as a quick check would it not?
Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Matt Colie
Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 4:13 AM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Steering Box (Gear) Input Shaft
Yes guys, But they weren't machined all that well.....
Mine was loose enough so some prior "technician" put it together with the spine one tooth off and still (with careful hammering)
managed to get the bolt though and tighten the clamp of the carden joint yoke. This was interesting as it made the assembly a
prevailing torque non-reusable fastener.
I will try to take a picture of a proper assembly tomorrow, but I am going to bed now.
Matt [/quote]
Per My above threat..
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/uploads/1860/Steering_box_2_.jpg
Regrettably, I didn't find out that it was too big for a forum screen until after I had put it on the website. I guess there was
some shake, but the picture is pretty good when it is smaller.;)
This picture was taken of a steering gear setup per the MM and the advice (very valuable) of Dave Lenzi. The mounting flange in the
background is machined and I believe square to the reference surface. You can see that the clamp bolt not parallel to it and
therefore not square to the specified surface.
Conclusion: I think you can't truly center the steering box without removing that carden (U) joint to get access to the flat.
Matt
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Steering Box (Gear) Input Shaft [message #243065 is a reply to message #243045] |
Tue, 11 March 2014 20:19 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Brian,
Take a look at this photo:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/steering-box/p39725-steering-gear-04.html
Notice how thick the clamp is between the bolt and nut.
MM X-7525 / Section 9 - Steering / Page 9-62 / Torque Specifications / Steering Column / Pinch bolt, to Steering Gear ... 40-45 ft
lb.
Here's what I BELIEVE happens over time. The torque of 40-45 ft lb is not sufficient to keep the clamp tight on the splines and you
get movement between them. The clamp and or splines wear and the amount of torque required to squeeze the clamp increases.
One of the first problems I found with the steering on Double Trouble was that clamp flopped around on the steering gear input
spline. When I showed it to JimB he noted; "yep common problem, we tighten them until the clamp doesn't move any more."
The bolt is a 7/16 - 14 which calls for a torque of 70 ft lb. By replacing it with a 7/16 - 20 bolt you can increase the torque to
78 ft lb. If you go to an Allen head bolt you can take the torque even higher.
http://www.repairengineering.com/bolt-torque-chart.html
Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Brian Waddell
Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 10:02 AM
To: gnmc list
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Steering Box (Gear) Input Shaft
that amt of torque can not be right either.....that much to stop clamp moving?????
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Steering Box (Gear) Input Shaft [message #243074 is a reply to message #243052] |
Tue, 11 March 2014 21:03 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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| USAussie wrote on Tue, 11 March 2014 19:55 |
Matt,
I assume you had the front wheels pointed straight ahead when you took this photo.
I edited your photo with a white line across the top of the carden joint yoke bolt; I realize it is not accurate.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/random-photos/p52883-set-steering-box-highp.html
If you were to clamp a piece of steel on top of the bolt head and point it in the same direction as the white line would it not show the relationship between the bolt head and rest of the steering box housing with the steering box on center and the wheels straight ahead.
This would be useful as a quick check would it not?
Regards,
Rob M.
|
Rob,
It would be great if it worked, but I fear that the unknown angle between the shaft flat and the clamp bolt would come to bite some in the ass. If we KNEW that angle and could account for it, it would be no problem. More that a few ships were built with the bow 5° high so they would slide down the ways. If they could do that, we should be able to produce a gage that gabs that bolt and lines up with something like the frame rail. Then a guy could do the mix and match up to the steering wheel and get that right and then the rest can go from there.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] Steering Box (Gear) Input Shaft [message #243086 is a reply to message #243074] |
Tue, 11 March 2014 21:45 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Matt,
Al Branscombe provided this:
Hey Rob,
I have the steering box from the same coach ( Owen Sound ON ) that Ken Burton got you the engine from . Just checked the bolt relief
cutout and the flat spot, they are not perpendicular , in fact they are at 75 degrees / 105 degrees to each other.
Cheers .......Albert
Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: Matt Colie
Rob,
It would be great if it worked, but I fear that the unknown angle between the shaft flat and the clamp bolt would come to bite some
in the ass. If we KNEW that angle and could account for it, it would be no problem. More that a few ships were built with the bow
5° high so they would slide down the ways. If they could do that, we should be able to produce a gage that gabs that bolt and lines
up with something like the frame rail. Then a guy could do the mix and match up to the steering wheel and get that right and then
the rest can go from there.
Matt
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Steering Box (Gear) Input Shaft [message #243090 is a reply to message #243085] |
Tue, 11 March 2014 21:50 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Please advise how why you think it is a non issue.
Did you remove the steering box and check it as per the MM?
Did you perform the step by step procedure I posted on the photo site?
Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Brian Waddell
Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 1:43 PM
To: gnmc list
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Steering Box (Gear) Input Shaft
All my bolts are tight..how about the orientation issue...I think it is a non issue or lenzi or the guy who learned from lenzi would
say more...brian
> From: robmueller@iinet.net.au
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2014 12:19:46 +1100
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Steering Box (Gear) Input Shaft
>
> Brian,
>
> Take a look at this photo:
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/steering-box/p39725-steering-gear-04.html
>
> Notice how thick the clamp is between the bolt and nut.
>
> MM X-7525 / Section 9 - Steering / Page 9-62 / Torque Specifications / Steering Column / Pinch bolt, to Steering Gear ... 40-45 ft
> lb.
>
> Here's what I BELIEVE happens over time. The torque of 40-45 ft lb is not sufficient to keep the clamp tight on the splines and
you
> get movement between them. The clamp and or splines wear and the amount of torque required to squeeze the clamp increases.
>
> One of the first problems I found with the steering on Double Trouble was that clamp flopped around on the steering gear input
> spline. When I showed it to JimB he noted; "yep common problem, we tighten them until the clamp doesn't move any more."
>
> The bolt is a 7/16 - 14 which calls for a torque of 70 ft lb. By replacing it with a 7/16 - 20 bolt you can increase the torque to
> 78 ft lb. If you go to an Allen head bolt you can take the torque even higher.
>
> http://www.repairengineering.com/bolt-torque-chart.html
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> Sydney, Australia
> AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
> USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Brian Waddell
> Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 10:02 AM
> To: gnmc list
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Steering Box (Gear) Input Shaft
>
> that amt of torque can not be right either.....that much to stop clamp moving?????
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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