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| Three point belts [message #242648] |
Fri, 07 March 2014 14:43  |
Hal StClair
Messages: 971
Registered: March 2013
Location: Rio Rancho NM
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After reading some of the discussions on the merits/liability's of the shoulder belt use in our GMC's I decided I'd keep the ones the PO had installed but modify the mounting. The PO had had them installed by a shop in Spokane who charged him $140 according to some old bills I found in the paperwork I got with the coach.
The shop had, hold onto your hats ,run a bolt through the OUTSIDE with a fender washer and only installed another fender washer inside against the fiberglass cap with a lock nut. From inside I assumed it ran through the alum frame member but no, they had hole sawed a 2" hole through it in order to reach the inside nut. they then put a piece of trim over it so to the casual observer it looked fine. In other words, the 1/8' fiberglass was all that was holding the upper belt mount-worse than nothing at all IMHO.
Anyway, I've now bolted it to the upper alum rail with five 5/16" bolts with a 16" piece of 1/4 x 2" strap. I suppose if I rip the top off it might not go too well, but I'll go with the odds I think.
Any shop that would do something like that should be @#$%^%.
Hal
"I enjoy talking to you. Your mind appeals to me. It resembles my own mind, except you happen to be insane."
1977 Royale 101348,
1977 Royale 101586, Diesel powered,
1974 Eagle Bus 45',w/slideout,
Rio Rancho, NM
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| Re: [GMCnet] Three point belts [message #242650 is a reply to message #242648] |
Fri, 07 March 2014 15:21  |
kelvin
Messages: 608
Registered: February 2004
Location: Eugene, OR
Karma: 0
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On 3/7/2014 12:43 PM, Hal StClair wrote:
>
> After reading some of the discussions on the merits/liability's of the shoulder belt use in our GMC's I decided I'd keep the ones the PO had installed but modify the mounting. The PO had had them installed by a shop in Spokane who charged him $140 according to some old bills I found in the paperwork I got with the coach.
> The shop had, hold onto your hats ,run a bolt through the OUTSIDE with a fender washer and only installed another fender washer inside against the fiberglass cap with a lock nut. From inside I assumed it ran through the alum frame member but no, they had hole sawed a 2" hole through it in order to reach the inside nut. they then put a piece of trim over it so to the casual observer it looked fine. In other words, the 1/8' fiberglass was all that was holding the upper belt mount-worse than nothing at all IMHO.
> Anyway, I've now bolted it to the upper alum rail with five 5/16" bolts with a 16" piece of 1/4 x 2" strap. I suppose if I rip the top off it might not go too well, but I'll go with the odds I think.
> Any shop that would do something like that should be @#$%^%.
I assume @#$%^% = "Sued".
That would piss me off enough to actually look them up and see if
they're still in business. There would be a word or two exchanged.
I spent my pre-GMC years building and modifying many Datsuns. Kind of a
side business to keep me in my drug of choice (better and faster Datsun)
and it astounded me how many BAD ideas can be executed on such a little
car. I've seen other-than-stock seats installed with zip-ties and
wire. Or maybe they upgraded to 1/4-20 bolts thru 20gauge sheetmetal.
Honestly, I've never seen anyone actually suffer from that piss-poor
workmanship but how could you EVER bring yourself to set someone up to
be killed like that? Foolish to do it to yourself. Criminal to do it
to someone else.
Kelvin
'73 23' in Eugene, OR
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| Re: [GMCnet] Three point belts [message #242710 is a reply to message #242696] |
Fri, 07 March 2014 22:26 |
Joe Weir
Messages: 769
Registered: February 2013
Location: Columbia, SC
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Considering the size/weight of the GMC, I'm not so sure shoulder belts are even needed. Unless you are worried about hitting something larger...
The photo of the rolled GMC with the two cockpit seats and nothing else around them should be enough to convince that the upper body of the coach is not up to the task. If I was that worried about safety, a full cockpit cage tied to the frame would be what I would anchor shoulder belts to.
The seats with the built in belts would need to have the mounting points beefed up. The mounts would have to hold back the heavier weight of the seat, as well as the occupant.
I'm trusting the stock lap belts, and not tailgating semis....
YMMv
76 Birchaven - "Wicked Mistress" - New engine, trans, alum radiator, brakes, Sully airbags, fuel lines, seats, adult beverage center... those Coachmen guys were really thinking about us second hand owners by including that beverage center...
Columbia, SC.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Three point belts [message #242741 is a reply to message #242722] |
Sat, 08 March 2014 08:40 |
Joe Weir
Messages: 769
Registered: February 2013
Location: Columbia, SC
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Now let me start off with I am no crash engineer, but I did stay at a holiday inn express last night... If you have credentials, or stayed at a Crown Plaza, feel free to correct me...
Practically, size and weight (more weight) have everything to do with the effects of a crash. In a crash between two vehicles, the heavier vehicle "wins". By how much is determined by the difference between the weights of the vehicles. I am assuming bumper to bumper contact. Think of a GMC rear ending a VW bug. Sure there would be damage, but the GMC is going to punt that bug into something else. Now think GMC running into a parked semi, the semi likely will not move. Very bad.
The idea that attaching a shoulder belt to a structural member that was never designed to anchor a seat belt somehow "helps" is beyond me. IMHO, the speeds and forces at which that belt will help retain your upper body in a crash is only slightly greater than about where your arms would hold you off the wheel. If it makes you feel safer, go ahead. My wife would be in this camp (seeing as how wives never believe their husbands when they say something wont work unless a stranger backs them up...)
Rob is right about the seat mounted shoulder belt, but I would be very diligent about re-enforcing the floor mounts. All this is moot when you are sitting in a fiberglass fishbowl just a few feet away from the front bumper. Anything other than bumper to bumper with any object of substance is likely to be very bad, belt or no. If you really wanted to make that cab safer in a crash, you would want to put some kind of a cage into the cockpit.
You see a lot of innovative designs at the racetrack to try to tackle driver safety, most times by the guy who is going to be the test dummy if something goes wrong. I have seen people injured in what seemed to be well built cages with secure seats, because some weak link or design aspect was not up to the task. In one case, not enough headroom to accomodate seat belt stretch, so that when the car flipped and landed on the roof severe spinal injury resulted (cage held but his head met the roof).
I am all about modern upgrades for the coach, but this is one we need to be extra careful with.
76 Birchaven - "Wicked Mistress" - New engine, trans, alum radiator, brakes, Sully airbags, fuel lines, seats, adult beverage center... those Coachmen guys were really thinking about us second hand owners by including that beverage center...
Columbia, SC.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Three point belts [message #242744 is a reply to message #242741] |
Sat, 08 March 2014 09:13 |
appie
Messages: 902
Registered: April 2013
Location: denmark
Karma: 2
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Try a other scenario
cruising a summer road,30 Ml/hr. wife slumbering in the passenger seat
Kid running onto road after the ball
You slamming the brakes
Wife smashes head on dashboard, possible spine injury
Appie
eleganza 76 "Olga" now sadly sold
6 wheel discbrake
Quadrabags
Springfield stage 2 462 olds
Manny tranny
( pictures at http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g6489-olga.html
Fulltiming in Europe july 2014 til july 2016
Denmark
[Updated on: Sat, 08 March 2014 09:14] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: [GMCnet] Three point belts [message #242748 is a reply to message #242744] |
Sat, 08 March 2014 09:47 |
Hal StClair
Messages: 971
Registered: March 2013
Location: Rio Rancho NM
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This topic sure got off on a tangent. It was supposed to be focused on the near 'criminal' installation of a shoulder belt, it was not intended to weigh the pro's and con's of the three point seat belt. Everyone needs to determine where their comfort zone is with lap or shoulder belts. In my opinion we are all driving/riding in a capsule that will easily disintegrate in a catastrophic accident and lap or shoulder belts will likely make little difference in one of those scenarios. I'm just more comfortable being held in place with less chance of injury from accidental contact or internal injuries caused by a lap belt in anything other than a major collision. The pictures provided of the catastrophic accidents that people survived shows the hand of God saved them and not a lap belt. The percentage of people walking away from an accident like those would be about the same as a lotto winner. 
JMHO
Hal
"I enjoy talking to you. Your mind appeals to me. It resembles my own mind, except you happen to be insane."
1977 Royale 101348,
1977 Royale 101586, Diesel powered,
1974 Eagle Bus 45',w/slideout,
Rio Rancho, NM
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| Re: [GMCnet] Three point belts [message #242750 is a reply to message #242744] |
Sat, 08 March 2014 10:13 |
Joe Weir
Messages: 769
Registered: February 2013
Location: Columbia, SC
Karma: 7
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Appie, You have very good brakes.
Sure. I'll give you that scenario - my wife isn't that tall above her waist, her head would only hit her knees. The stop would fold her in half at the waist, because she is wearing her lap belt, but she is not going to hit the dashboard.
And, depending on how she is sleeping in that shoulder belt, she still has injuries. Anything less than a 5 point harness and hans device is inadequate for holding a dead weight in place. I know a couple of One Lap of America guys that rigged up that very system to sleep in the car when traveling in between tracks.
Kid runs out in front of a 6 ton gmc, it is very lucky indeed if nobody is hurt. More than likely, you swerve and hit a parked car.
I'm not arguing against shoulder belts, just that they are not a quick bolt in affair in a GMC.
Traditionally, the shoulder belt is terminated at two points in the floor with a loop running through a second mount on the pillar. If that mount on the pillar lets go your lap belt now way to long and is no longer working.
So, supplementing a factory lap belt with a separate shoulder belt anchored in two spots and not part of the lap belt might be helpful, but still could be dangerous in a rollover depending on where the roof section goes off to.
A seat mounted shoulder belt is mounted to the seat, not the floor. Now all of the force the factory lap belt mounts were designed to hold is being held by the seat base bolts, which were only designed to hold the seat in place, not the body on top of it.
Just wanted everyone thinking of doing this to think carefully about it and weigh your options.
| appie wrote on Sat, 08 March 2014 09:13 |
Try a other scenario
cruising a summer road,30 Ml/hr. wife slumbering in the passenger seat
Kid running onto road after the ball
You slamming the brakes
Wife smashes head on dashboard, possible spine injury
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76 Birchaven - "Wicked Mistress" - New engine, trans, alum radiator, brakes, Sully airbags, fuel lines, seats, adult beverage center... those Coachmen guys were really thinking about us second hand owners by including that beverage center...
Columbia, SC.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Three point belts [message #242752 is a reply to message #242750] |
Sat, 08 March 2014 10:22 |
Joe Weir
Messages: 769
Registered: February 2013
Location: Columbia, SC
Karma: 7
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Or better yet, one of those 4 point add-in car harnesses that use the existing seat belt floor mounts, and secure the shoulder straps to the rear seat belt mounts - adapting those rear mounts to something more substantial than the B-pillar of the coach.
| Joe Weir wrote on Sat, 08 March 2014 10:13 |
So, supplementing a factory lap belt with a separate shoulder belt anchored in two spots and not part of the lap belt might be helpful, but still could be dangerous in a rollover depending on where the roof section goes off to.
| appie wrote on Sat, 08 March 2014 09:13 |
Try a other scenario
cruising a summer road,30 Ml/hr. wife slumbering in the passenger seat
Kid running onto road after the ball
You slamming the brakes
Wife smashes head on dashboard, possible spine injury
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76 Birchaven - "Wicked Mistress" - New engine, trans, alum radiator, brakes, Sully airbags, fuel lines, seats, adult beverage center... those Coachmen guys were really thinking about us second hand owners by including that beverage center...
Columbia, SC.
[Updated on: Sat, 08 March 2014 10:23] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: [GMCnet] Three point belts [message #242755 is a reply to message #242748] |
Sat, 08 March 2014 10:36 |
Joe Weir
Messages: 769
Registered: February 2013
Location: Columbia, SC
Karma: 7
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Sorry, Hal. Have had to deal with some "weapons grade stupidity" that resulted in tragedy last week, and I used your thread as a soapbox for safety. I apologize.
As long as people are aware of the limitations.
| Hal StClair wrote on Sat, 08 March 2014 09:47 |
This topic sure got off on a tangent. It was supposed to be focused on the near 'criminal' installation of a shoulder belt, it was not intended to weigh the pro's and con's of the three point seat belt. Everyone needs to determine where their comfort zone is with lap or shoulder belts. In my opinion we are all driving/riding in a capsule that will easily disintegrate in a catastrophic accident and lap or shoulder belts will likely make little difference in one of those scenarios. I'm just more comfortable being held in place with less chance of injury from accidental contact or internal injuries caused by a lap belt in anything other than a major collision. The pictures provided of the catastrophic accidents that people survived shows the hand of God saved them and not a lap belt. The percentage of people walking away from an accident like those would be about the same as a lotto winner.
JMHO
Hal
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76 Birchaven - "Wicked Mistress" - New engine, trans, alum radiator, brakes, Sully airbags, fuel lines, seats, adult beverage center... those Coachmen guys were really thinking about us second hand owners by including that beverage center...
Columbia, SC.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Three point belts [message #242758 is a reply to message #242757] |
Sat, 08 March 2014 11:04 |
Joe Weir
Messages: 769
Registered: February 2013
Location: Columbia, SC
Karma: 7
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All true. Sorry if I came off as less than friendly, that was not the intent.
| A Hamilto wrote on Sat, 08 March 2014 10:52 |
But also, at some speed (maybe less than 35 mph), some restraint of your torso could save some serious cranial/facial injury.
There is an argument against using the aluminum frame of the upper body as an anchor point as that could result in decapitation when the upper body separates from the rest of the vehicle.
So to keep your face out of the steering wheel in a slower speed collision, and to keep your head on your shoulders in a rollover, what is needed is an over the shoulder system that is attached only at the floor and (probably) to the seat itself.
That's all I have to say on this subject.
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76 Birchaven - "Wicked Mistress" - New engine, trans, alum radiator, brakes, Sully airbags, fuel lines, seats, adult beverage center... those Coachmen guys were really thinking about us second hand owners by including that beverage center...
Columbia, SC.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Three point belts [message #242764 is a reply to message #242757] |
Sat, 08 March 2014 11:56 |
k2gkk
Messages: 4452
Registered: November 2009
Karma: -8
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My 1999 GMC Sierra 2500 has the "shoulder belt" integrated in the seat back. I have always wondered how secure THAT arrangement is!
Mac in OKC
Money Pit
1976 ex P.B.
Sent from my iPad
> On Mar 8, 2014, at 10:53, "A." <markbb1@netzero.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Joe Weir wrote on Sat, 08 March 2014 08:40
>> ...Practically, size and weight (more weight) have everything to do with the effects of a crash. ...
> Maybe so. But not relevant to my priorities in this discussion.
>
> My point is about what happens to your face when the vehicle slows at such a rate that your face ends up in the steering wheel.
>
> In a head on at aome speed (probably less than 70 mph), how well you are held in place in a GMC becomes irrelevant.
>
> But also, at some speed (maybe less than 35 mph), some restraint of your torso could save some serious cranial/facial injury.
>
> There is an argument against using the aluminum frame of the upper body as an anchor point as that could result in decapitation when the upper body separates from the rest of the vehicle.
>
> So to keep your face out of the steering wheel in a slower speed collision, and to keep your head on your shoulders in a rollover, what is needed is an over the shoulder system that is attached only at the floor and (probably) to the seat itself.
>
> That's all I have to say on this subject.
> --
> '73 23' Sequoia For Sale
> '73 23' CanyonLands For Sale
> UA (Upper Alabama)
> CanyonLands most likely for a parts coach. Sequoia being restored to service.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Three point belts [message #242798 is a reply to message #242757] |
Sat, 08 March 2014 18:30 |
 |
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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OK,
So far this thread has been (for the most part) a bunch of "what ifs."
Let's try and get some FACTS into the mix.
KenH has provided photos of GMC's that were "decapitated" and the driver / passenger survived.
It has been noted that a passenger hitting the dashboard is remote unless they are SERIOUSLY tall from the wait up or seat was
forward as far as it would go. Perhaps someone could push their passenger seat as far as it would go and measure the distance from
the upright part of the seat to the dash.
It has been noted that an over the shoulder belt would prevent the driver from kissing the steering wheel. I agree 100% that this is
a possibility; however, does anyone know of any accident in a GMC which this actually happened?
Is it not possible that a driver could see an accident coming and brace themselves against the steering wheel or bend over and lay
on the steering wheel before impact? I realize those scenarios are remote but if the driver was a quick thinker would it not be
possible?
Also if the over the shoulder belts are attached to the floor the method of mounting the seat to the floor MUST be strong enough so
that the seat does not impart force on the body in the event of a head on crash.
Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: A.
Maybe so. But not relevant to my priorities in this discussion.
My point is about what happens to your face when the vehicle slows at such a rate that your face ends up in the steering wheel.
In a head on at aome speed (probably less than 70 mph), how well you are held in place in a GMC becomes irrelevant.
But also, at some speed (maybe less than 35 mph), some restraint of your torso could save some serious cranial/facial injury.
There is an argument against using the aluminum frame of the upper body as an anchor point as that could result in decapitation when
the upper body separates from the rest of the vehicle.
So to keep your face out of the steering wheel in a slower speed collision, and to keep your head on your shoulders in a rollover,
what is needed is an over the shoulder system that is attached only at the floor and (probably) to the seat itself.
That's all I have to say on this subject.
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Three point belts [message #242799 is a reply to message #242764] |
Sat, 08 March 2014 18:30 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Mac,
I wouldn't loose any sleep over that as I'd bet dollars to donuts GM did crash testing to make sure that shoulder belt did not cause
injury in a crash.
Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: D C _Mac_ Macdonald
My 1999 GMC Sierra 2500 has the "shoulder belt" integrated in the seat back. I have always wondered how secure THAT arrangement is!
Mac
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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