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| [GMCnet] Engine replacement [message #240715] |
Fri, 21 February 2014 08:35  |
glwgmc
Messages: 1014
Registered: June 2004
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This is the very reason I think it is so important for us to have an engine rebuilder score card. Anyone looking for a new engine should have the benefit of as much real world feedback as possible before making this very important decision. No need for elaborate details, just positive or negative feedback on the whole buying/ownership experience would be a great help. Think how beneficial it would be for - in this case Darryl - to have a couple a dozen or more feedback ratings on engines from several different engine rebuilders. Ratings in hand some quick phone calls would answer the question of how much and how long and they could have a path forward in a day or two. As it is now, everyone seems to have to go through a stressful selection process flying blind.
Ideally, some of our suppliers would offer a professional R&R service at a known price or price range instead of the current wide open "shop rate times shop hours pricing" so the GMC owner in need of a new engine could choose where to go having a good idea of what the total cost and total time would be to get the new engine of their choice in and their GMC back on the road.
Still in sunny Mexico on the beach with a so far very positive experience with the new S&J engine in the 78 Royale.....
Jerry
Jerry Work
The Dovetail Joint
Fine furniture designed and hand crafted in the 1907 former Masonic Temple building in historic Kerby, OR
Visitors always welcome!
glwork@mac.com
http://jerrywork.com
-----------------
Well, I've been chasing an engine noise for the last 5000 miles and finally figured it was time to do something about it. Took it down to JimK and, among other things, they ran a compression check that showed only 30lbs in #3 cylinder. A couple of squirts of oil brought it up to 60lbs. Their conclusion is that it's a bad piston or a broken ring and the fix is to pull the engine and rebuild it or replace it.
So I'm reluctantly in the market for a rebuilt engine. I know a couple of folks have installed engines from S and J in Spokane recently and seem happy with the experience. Does anyone have any long-term experience with S and J? Any bad experiences? Any other recommendations.
Darryl
-----------------------
Jerry Work
The Dovetail Joint
Fine furniture designed and hand crafted in the 1907 former Masonic Temple building in historic Kerby, OR
Visitors always welcome!
glwork@mac.com
http://jerrywork.com
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Jerry & Sharon Work
78 Royale
Kerby, OR
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engine replacement [message #240761 is a reply to message #240715] |
Fri, 21 February 2014 14:25  |
Darryl
Messages: 144
Registered: December 2011
Location: Northern California
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Still in sunny Mexico on the beach with a so far very positive experience with the new S&J engine in the 78 Royale.....
Jerry
Thanks for the feedback on your S and J experience. That's probably the direction I will go mostly because I don't really know of anyone else except Jasper and JimB didn't have a good experience working with them. Some kind of scorecard or a collection of rating/recommendation comments would be a real help.
Darryl
Darryl Meyers
1978 Eleganza II
El Dorado Hills, CA
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engine replacement [message #240784 is a reply to message #240715] |
Fri, 21 February 2014 17:30 |
KB
Messages: 1262
Registered: September 2009
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we've only got about 1700 miles on it so far, but I second S&J engines.
They were really good to work with and seem to know their stuff.
If I were doing it again, I might try to find a way to get them
an intake manifold and the tin work (oil pan, etc) so they
could do a sealed engine. It would have simplified installation
to already have that stuff installed. Not a big deal, but their
shop time in Spokane is a LOT cheaper than here in the SF Bay area.
On the other hand, doing it ourselves made it easy to install
Dick Paterson's block-off intake gasket kit.
Karen
1973 23'
1975 26'
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Karen
1975 26'
San Jose, CA
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engine replacement [message #240821 is a reply to message #240715] |
Fri, 21 February 2014 21:57 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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| glwgmc wrote on Fri, 21 February 2014 07:35 |
This is the very reason I think it is so important for us to have an engine rebuilder score card. Anyone looking for a new engine should have the benefit of as much real world feedback as possible before making this very important decision. No need for elaborate details, just positive or negative feedback on the whole buying/ownership experience would be a great help. Think how beneficial it would be for - in this case Darryl - to have a couple a dozen or more feedback ratings on engines from several different engine rebuilders. Ratings in hand some quick phone calls would answer the question of how much and how long and they could have a path forward in a day or two. As it is now, everyone seems to have to go through a stressful selection process flying blind.
Ideally, some of our suppliers would offer a professional R&R service at a known price or price range instead of the current wide open "shop rate times shop hours pricing" so the GMC owner in need of a new engine could choose where to go having a good idea of what the total cost and total time would be to get the new engine of their choice in and their GMC back on the road.
Still in sunny Mexico on the beach with a so far very positive experience with the new S&J engine in the 78 Royale.....
Jerry
Jerry Work
The Dovetail Joint
Fine furniture designed and hand crafted in the 1907 former Masonic Temple building in historic Kerby, OR
Visitors always welcome!
glwork@mac.com
http://jerrywork.com
-----------------
Well, I've been chasing an engine noise for the last 5000 miles and finally figured it was time to do something about it. Took it down to JimK and, among other things, they ran a compression check that showed only 30lbs in #3 cylinder. A couple of squirts of oil brought it up to 60lbs. Their conclusion is that it's a bad piston or a broken ring and the fix is to pull the engine and rebuild it or replace it.
So I'm reluctantly in the market for a rebuilt engine. I know a couple of folks have installed engines from S and J in Spokane recently and seem happy with the experience. Does anyone have any long-term experience with S and J? Any bad experiences? Any other recommendations.
Darryl
-----------------------
Jerry Work
The Dovetail Joint
Fine furniture designed and hand crafted in the 1907 former Masonic Temple building in historic Kerby, OR
Visitors always welcome!
glwork@mac.com
http://jerrywork.com
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Jerry, I just don't think that will work. There aren't enough replacements by any single supplier to make any kind of realistic differentiation. I also think that the best of the best will still have a failure sooner or later since any engine rebuild is fraught with potential for failure. What is probably more important is the level of service and responsiveness. It may actually turn out that the best rebuilders will no longer rebuild or replace engines since their reputation is at stake and they can't control the outcome. Look at how meticulous Ken H was with his rebuilds and the number of times he had to yank and rebuild. Also, on the road failures pretty well obviate any choice of preferred rebuilders.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engine replacement [message #240822 is a reply to message #240784] |
Fri, 21 February 2014 22:01 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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| KB wrote on Fri, 21 February 2014 16:30 |
we've only got about 1700 miles on it so far, but I second S&J engines.
They were really good to work with and seem to know their stuff.
If I were doing it again, I might try to find a way to get them
an intake manifold and the tin work (oil pan, etc) so they
could do a sealed engine. It would have simplified installation
to already have that stuff installed. Not a big deal, but their
shop time in Spokane is a LOT cheaper than here in the SF Bay area.
On the other hand, doing it ourselves made it easy to install
Dick Paterson's block-off intake gasket kit.
Karen
1973 23'
1975 26'
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I will take this seriously after you have 20k to 30k miles on your engine. How can you even remotely make a conclusion after 1700 miles??
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engine replacement [message #240851 is a reply to message #240715] |
Sat, 22 February 2014 11:51 |
KB
Messages: 1262
Registered: September 2009
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> S&J is in Spokane, WA. https://www.sandjengines.com When I spoke with them in January, they did not have any 455 cores, even tho the online order form showed they did, and needed my engine up front to overhaul. (I live 5 hrs from Spokane and wanted to make only one trip).
interesting; I had talked to Motorworks first, but at that time (last May) they didn't
have a core. Guess it's luck of the draw.
The shipping to/from S&J was amazingly cheap I thought -- $125 each way
for the SF Bay area, so it could still be worth dealing with one of the
companies in Spokane even if you had to ship your engine to them first.
Plus if you ship them your engine, you could have them do a sealed build
(manifold, etc, already installed). The turnaround was fast; the normal
build only takes them 5 days.
Karen
1973 23'
1975 26'
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1975 26'
San Jose, CA
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engine replacement [message #240858 is a reply to message #240715] |
Sat, 22 February 2014 12:37 |
KB
Messages: 1262
Registered: September 2009
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Bob de Kruyff wrote:
> I will take this seriously after you have 20k to 30k miles on your engine. How can you even remotely make a conclusion after 1700 miles??
As I said: "They were really good to work with and seem to know their stuff."
That only refers to the experience I had working with them, and our impression
of the engine so far. They did what they said they'd do, and delivered on time.
Obviously the jury is still out regarding engine longetivity with so few miles,
which is why I included the caveat of mileage.
There's no call for hostility here.
Karen
1973 23'
1975 26'
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San Jose, CA
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engine replacement [message #312567 is a reply to message #240815] |
Sat, 28 January 2017 17:00 |
pyolet
Messages: 78
Registered: August 2006
Location: Helena, MT
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Update. The MotorWorks reman 455 cratered this week with less than 10,000 miles on it and less than 3 years of service. #5 main bearing and/or 5 & 7 rod bearing(s) have failed, and possibly the crank thrust bearing, causing continuous knock...the 500 mile oil was full of ferrous and bearing material in the filter media. I've pampered this engine with oil changes every 3000 miles with zinc additive. My advise to any prospective engine buyer is to steer clear of any budget, cookie cutter engine builder such as this. You get what you pay for....and I got 9,500 miles for my $2600....not a good bargain. Getting a 455 core rebuilt at the Caddy 500 specialist shop in ABQ. More to follow. Woody.
1975 Avion 26' Transmode
TZE365V100846 Helena, Montana
EBL TBI, AL in man, in-tank pumps, AL rad, rear discs, Alcoas, Dakota Digital dash, all LED int and ext roof markers, Generac, Hubler torsion bars, Quadrabags, Manny tranny, 3.70, Zip Dee.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engine replacement [message #312568 is a reply to message #312567] |
Sat, 28 January 2017 18:53 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Woody,
I would highly recommend you remove your radiator and have the engine oil
cooler and transmission cooler cleaned by a shop that has one of these:
http://www.hotflusher.com/automotive/index.cfm
The engine failure scenario you describe matches a theory of why low mileage
rebuilds fail.
When an engine fails heaps of crap winds up in the engine oil cooler. It
restricts oil flow and increases the pressure on the bypass valve (opens at
5.3 - 6.3 psid) and allows unfiltered oil back into the engine.
I was going to do some testing to support that theory last year but it just
didn't happen for various reasons.
If you can't find a Hotflusher I'd suggest you take the radiator oil cooler
out of the loop and replace it with an oil cooler with a fan and thermostat
like this:
Tiny URL: http://tinyurl.com/gmna24a
Full URL:
https://www.amazon.com/70297-Cooler-Cooling-Automatic-Transmission/dp/B003TP
HHBI/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_2?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1485650732&sr=1-2-fkmr0&keywo
rds=B%26M+70297+Hi-Tek+SuperCooler+Oil+Cooler
Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
USAussie - Downunder
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808
-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Woody
Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2017 10:01 AM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Engine replacement
Update. The MotorWorks reman 455 cratered this week with less than 10,000
miles on it and less than 3 years of service. #5 main bearing and/or 5 & 7
rod bearing(s) have failed, and possibly the crank thrust bearing, causing
continuous knock...the 500 mile oil was full of ferrous and bearing
material in the filter media. I've pampered this engine with oil changes
every 3000 miles with zinc additive. My advise to any prospective engine
buyer is to steer clear of any budget, cookie cutter engine builder such as
this. You get what you pay for....and I got 9,500 miles for my
$2600....not a good bargain. Getting a 455 core rebuilt at the Caddy 500
specialist shop in ABQ. More to follow. Woody.
--
1975 Avion 26' Transmode
TZE365V100846 Helena, Montana
EBL TBI, AL in man, in-tank pumps, AL rad, rear discs, Alcoas, Dakota
Digital dash, all LED int and ext roof markers, Generac, Hubler torsion
bars,
Quadrabags, Manny tranny, 3.70, Zip Dee.
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engine replacement [message #312569 is a reply to message #312568] |
Sat, 28 January 2017 20:16 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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A wise person once told me " You can get 20 years experience once, or, you
can get 1 years experience 20 times, the choice is yours." How many times
are members of this great GMC community going to experience catastrophic
engine failure caused by crap from the previously failed engine lodged in
the lines and oil cooler. A rattle can full of carb cleaner will not clean
it out. Neither will an ordinary air compressor "OSHA APPROVED" air nozzle.
You are better off removing the stock oil cooler and running without one. I
have no experience with the machine that Rob talks about, but S and J will
not warranty any of their engines unless new hoses and brand new previously
unused coolers are fitted. That is what I do when I install new engines. On
Jerry Work's Clasco coach that I installed an S & J engine in, I even
replaced the radiator with an aluminum one. Ask Jerry what he thinks.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403
On Jan 28, 2017 4:54 PM, "Rob Mueller" wrote:
> Woody,
>
> I would highly recommend you remove your radiator and have the engine oil
> cooler and transmission cooler cleaned by a shop that has one of these:
>
> http://www.hotflusher.com/automotive/index.cfm
>
> The engine failure scenario you describe matches a theory of why low
> mileage
> rebuilds fail.
>
> When an engine fails heaps of crap winds up in the engine oil cooler. It
> restricts oil flow and increases the pressure on the bypass valve (opens at
> 5.3 - 6.3 psid) and allows unfiltered oil back into the engine.
>
> I was going to do some testing to support that theory last year but it just
> didn't happen for various reasons.
>
> If you can't find a Hotflusher I'd suggest you take the radiator oil cooler
> out of the loop and replace it with an oil cooler with a fan and thermostat
> like this:
>
> Tiny URL: http://tinyurl.com/gmna24a
>
> Full URL:
>
> https://www.amazon.com/70297-Cooler-Cooling-Automatic-
> Transmission/dp/B003TP
> HHBI/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_2?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=
> 1485650732&sr=1-2-fkmr0&keywo
> rds=B%26M+70297+Hi-Tek+SuperCooler+Oil+Cooler
>
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> The Pedantic Mechanic
> USAussie - Downunder
> USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
> USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Woody
> Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2017 10:01 AM
> To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Engine replacement
>
> Update. The MotorWorks reman 455 cratered this week with less than 10,000
> miles on it and less than 3 years of service. #5 main bearing and/or 5 & 7
> rod bearing(s) have failed, and possibly the crank thrust bearing, causing
> continuous knock...the 500 mile oil was full of ferrous and bearing
> material in the filter media. I've pampered this engine with oil changes
> every 3000 miles with zinc additive. My advise to any prospective engine
> buyer is to steer clear of any budget, cookie cutter engine builder such as
> this. You get what you pay for....and I got 9,500 miles for my
> $2600....not a good bargain. Getting a 455 core rebuilt at the Caddy 500
> specialist shop in ABQ. More to follow. Woody.
> --
> 1975 Avion 26' Transmode
> TZE365V100846 Helena, Montana
> EBL TBI, AL in man, in-tank pumps, AL rad, rear discs, Alcoas, Dakota
> Digital dash, all LED int and ext roof markers, Generac, Hubler torsion
> bars,
> Quadrabags, Manny tranny, 3.70, Zip Dee.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
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>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engine replacement [message #312573 is a reply to message #240822] |
Sun, 29 January 2017 00:16 |
George Beckman
Messages: 1085
Registered: October 2008
Location: Colfax, CA
Karma: 11
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Senior Member |
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[quote title=Bob de Kruyff wrote on Fri, 21 February 2014 20:01]KB wrote on Fri, 21 February 2014 16:30
I will take this seriously after you have 20k to 30k miles on your engine. How can you even remotely make a conclusion after 1700 miles??
It is America, Bob. Karen can make the conclusions she wants. As a woman doing 95% of her own work plus writing excellent installation guides for us all, she has earned her stripes.
There is a pretty good reason I rarely read this forum.
'74 Eleganza, SE, Howell + EBL
Best Wishes,
George
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engine replacement [message #312637 is a reply to message #240715] |
Mon, 30 January 2017 11:16 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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A look at Bounds' current blog ought to be enough to steer you away from Jasper rebuilds.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engine replacement [message #312642 is a reply to message #240715] |
Mon, 30 January 2017 12:34 |
pyolet
Messages: 78
Registered: August 2006
Location: Helena, MT
Karma: 0
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Member |
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Rob, what makes you think the oil bypass is suspect? My airplane's Lycoming IO-540 has an oil bypass and it activates regularly and that doesn't destroy the bearings. My 455 was making metal and that wasn't caused by dirty oil...I change it religiously (10-40 Delo with zinc added) and there was no contamination in my cooling system from a previous failure. It was simply a 12mo/12,000 mile warranty budget engine that didn't last. There is no way to determine what failed until engine is torn down next week. Will keep the forum updated. BTW, I have that exact B&M cooler already on order, along with replacement Slaten oil lines.
I wasn't trying to place blame with my update. Just trying to get Jerry Work's builder score card started....so:
I got 3.4 miles per rebuild dollar on the MotorWorks 455 reman. That sucks any way you slice it and I did the R&R labor!! The current build underway should go 80,000 plus and that'd put it in the 13-14 miles per dollar range....acceptable. You get what you pay for and I got diddly squat in Spokane. Everyone's free to do what ever they can afford, but quality and details count with these 455's. Dick Patterson didn't have any built up 455's or I would've gone with him. The shop I'm using in ABQ will follow Mondello's build guide, dyno the engine for cam break in and data sheets, and it should be around $6k incl. labor with a lifetime warranty. Will keep you posted. Woody.
1975 Avion 26' Transmode
TZE365V100846 Helena, Montana
EBL TBI, AL in man, in-tank pumps, AL rad, rear discs, Alcoas, Dakota Digital dash, all LED int and ext roof markers, Generac, Hubler torsion bars, Quadrabags, Manny tranny, 3.70, Zip Dee.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engine replacement [message #312645 is a reply to message #240715] |
Mon, 30 January 2017 17:14 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
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Senior Member |
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Until Rob or one of his peers can scientifically define what is going on with the filtering and bypass systems it's all just armchair guessing. My Cinnabar 455 is going on maybe 7 years. No ticks/ no knocks. I had my radiator recored way back when I first got the coach. The PO installed rebuilt engine (some big box unit) died a little later due to sludge in pan (rod knock). I didn't do anything more with the radiator and don't remember being charged for add'l rad service with new engine. I use Rotella T6 and Wix
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engine replacement [message #312657 is a reply to message #312642] |
Mon, 30 January 2017 21:39 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Woody,
In a nutshell I based my conclusions after spending countless hours studying
the oil flow path through the 455 and 403.
After doing so I formulated a test plan and spent $500 for a flowmeter, $250
for a PSID gage and another hundred bucks or so for lines and fittings. I
made a custom oil filter adapter that would allow me to force the bypass
valve in the oil filter adapter closed on a 455 with headers; which is what
I was going run the tests on. Unfortunately I was unable the test on that
engine so I shipped the test gear to Manny's. I stopped by his home on the
way back to Sydney only to discover my custom oil filter adapter would only
work with headers and his test set up has stock manifolds.
Unfortunately I have too much on my plate to spend a lot of time justifying
my theory, however, I will be attending the GMCMI Convention and I would be
more than happy to walk anyone who is interested through my theory step by
step.
Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808
-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Woody
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2017 5:35 AM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Engine replacement
Rob, what makes you think the oil bypass is suspect? My airplane's Lycoming
IO-540 has an oil bypass and it activates regularly and that doesn't
destroy the bearings. My 455 was making metal and that wasn't caused by
dirty oil...I change it religiously (10-40 Delo with zinc added) and there
was no contamination in my cooling system from a previous failure. It was
simply a 12mo/12,000 mile warranty budget engine that didn't last. There
is no way to determine what failed until engine is torn down next week.
Will keep the forum updated. BTW, I have that exact B&M cooler already on
order, along with replacement Slaten oil lines.
I wasn't trying to place blame with my update. Just trying to get Jerry
Work's builder score card started....so:
I got 3.4 miles per rebuild dollar on the MotorWorks 455 reman. That sucks
any way you slice it and I did the R&R labor!! The current build underway
should go 80,000 plus and that'd put it in the 13-14 miles per dollar
range....acceptable. You get what you pay for and I got diddly squat in
Spokane. Everyone's free to do what ever they can afford, but quality and
details count with these 455's. Dick Patterson didn't have any built up
455's or I would've gone with him. The shop I'm using in ABQ will follow
Mondello's build guide, dyno the engine for cam break in and data sheets,
and it should be around $6k incl. labor with a lifetime warranty. Will keep
you posted. Woody.
--
1975 Avion 26' Transmode
TZE365V100846 Helena, Montana
EBL TBI, AL in man, in-tank pumps, AL rad, rear discs, Alcoas, Dakota
Digital dash, all LED int and ext roof markers, Generac, Hubler torsion
bars,
Quadrabags, Manny tranny, 3.70, Zip Dee.
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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