Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Engine Replacement
| Engine Replacement [message #240610] |
Thu, 20 February 2014 15:46  |
Darryl
Messages: 144
Registered: December 2011
Location: Northern California
Karma: 0
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Well, I've been chasing an engine noise for the last 5000 miles and finally figured it was time to do something about it. Took it down to JimK and, among other things, they ran a compression check that showed only 30lbs in #3 cylinder. A couple of squirts of oil brought it up to 60lbs. Their conclusion is that it's a bad piston or a broken ring and the fix is to pull the engine and rebuild it or replace it.
So I'm reluctantly in the market for a rebuilt engine. I know a couple of folks have installed engines from S and J in Spokane recently and seem happy with the experience. Does anyone have any long-term experience with S and J? Any bad experiences? Any other recommendations.
Darryl Meyers
1978 Eleganza II
El Dorado Hills, CA
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| Re: Engine Replacement [message #240616 is a reply to message #240610] |
Thu, 20 February 2014 17:11  |
GeorgeRud
Messages: 1380
Registered: February 2007
Location: Chicago, IL
Karma: 0
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Did you check whether JimK's folks can do the rebuild? I think he does a good job and backs up his work. If they don't do the rebuilds themselves, I'd trust his recommendation.
JimB in Florida also does rebuilds, but I think shipping, etc. would preclude that as a reasonable option.
George Rudawsky
Chicago, IL
75 Palm Beach
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| Re: Engine Replacement [message #240619 is a reply to message #240610] |
Thu, 20 February 2014 18:10 |
bwevers
Messages: 597
Registered: October 2010
Location: San Jose
Karma: 5
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Darryl,
Wasn't your engine a 403?
Does rebuilding 403 engine require any special treatment?
Forged instead of cast pistons?
Are forged pistons available for the low deck design?
I wonder if a 455 is a drop-in.
-Bill
Bill Wevers GMC49ers, GMC Western States
1975 Glenbrook - Manny Powerdrive, OneTon
455 F Block, G heads
San Jose
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| Re: Engine Replacement [message #240622 is a reply to message #240619] |
Thu, 20 February 2014 18:50 |
cadelec
Messages: 303
Registered: September 2011
Location: Brisbane Australia
Karma: 1
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i did post earlier that there is a 455 core on craigslist in the SF area
Trevor
Brisbane Australia
Siesta Koala 76 Edgemont (old Bobby Moores)
71 Cadillac Eldo Convert
58 Cadillac Eldorado Brougham Project
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| Re: Engine Replacement [message #240623 is a reply to message #240610] |
Thu, 20 February 2014 18:53 |
Joe Weir
Messages: 769
Registered: February 2013
Location: Columbia, SC
Karma: 7
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If you are close enough to JimK to get him to check the engine, then just have him do the work or source the engine.
Trust me, you don't want to do this twice, unless you are retired and have a shop, in which case knock yourself out... 
76 Birchaven - "Wicked Mistress" - New engine, trans, alum radiator, brakes, Sully airbags, fuel lines, seats, adult beverage center... those Coachmen guys were really thinking about us second hand owners by including that beverage center...
Columbia, SC.
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| Re: Engine Replacement [message #240631 is a reply to message #240619] |
Thu, 20 February 2014 19:16 |
Darryl
Messages: 144
Registered: December 2011
Location: Northern California
Karma: 0
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| bwevers wrote on Thu, 20 February 2014 16:10 |
Darryl,
Wasn't your engine a 403?
Does rebuilding 403 engine require any special treatment?
Forged instead of cast pistons?
Are forged pistons available for the low deck design?
I wonder if a 455 is a drop-in.
-Bill
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Bill
It is a 403. As I understand it going to a 455 isn't much of a problem but I'd be happy staying with the 403.
I'm not sure what "upgrades" to look for in a "motorhome" engine. I know it should have an "RV" cam but not sure what else I should look for.
Darryl Meyers
1978 Eleganza II
El Dorado Hills, CA
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| Re: Engine Replacement [message #240633 is a reply to message #240622] |
Thu, 20 February 2014 19:17 |
Darryl
Messages: 144
Registered: December 2011
Location: Northern California
Karma: 0
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| cadelec wrote on Thu, 20 February 2014 16:50 |
i did post earlier that there is a 455 core on craigslist in the SF area
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Well, I seem to have a 403 core.
Darryl Meyers
1978 Eleganza II
El Dorado Hills, CA
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| Re: Engine Replacement [message #240640 is a reply to message #240610] |
Thu, 20 February 2014 19:30 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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| Darryl wrote on Thu, 20 February 2014 14:46 |
Well, I've been chasing an engine noise for the last 5000 miles and finally figured it was time to do something about it. Took it down to JimK and, among other things, they ran a compression check that showed only 30lbs in #3 cylinder. A couple of squirts of oil brought it up to 60lbs. Their conclusion is that it's a bad piston or a broken ring and the fix is to pull the engine and rebuild it or replace it.
So I'm reluctantly in the market for a rebuilt engine. I know a couple of folks have installed engines from S and J in Spokane recently and seem happy with the experience. Does anyone have any long-term experience with S and J? Any bad experiences? Any other recommendations.
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The 455 is not quite a drop in. You'll be happier with another 403.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: Engine Replacement [message #240655 is a reply to message #240610] |
Thu, 20 February 2014 21:07 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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I have no direct experience with S & J. However, when I was having my engine woes last year, I had several folks from the upper left coast recommend them. I don't recall exactly who but a couple were PMs because "they didn't want to start a vendor war".
You might get some PMs also.
That said, I did talk to them and what they told me was impressive. A COMPLETE rebuild with all new parts was something like $1800 iirc plus a core. I did ask if they would take a 455 as a suitable core for a 403 and vice versa and they said they would.
Ended up having mine rebuilt by an engine builder/GMC owner/Ken Henderson friend in Americus Ga.
The R&R (Remove and Reinstall) is a major pain and many feel that if they're going to pay to have that done, they want a TOTALLY rebuilt engine...NEW..Bore the cylinders, turn the crank, new cam, lifters, pistons, etc, etc, etc.
I did my own R&R. The other option is that if you've just got a broken ring, AND the rest of the engine is within spec, you COULD bore only that cylinder and replace the one piston oversize, new standard size rings, bearings, timing gears/chain, oil pump, etc and go on down the road. The difference in having one cylinder 20-30 thousands oversize is nothing on a 4000 max rpm engine. Certainly not as significant as having one cylinder 10 PSI down. All this is just my non-engineer shade tree car guy's opinion.
That is exactly what we ended up doing to my 403. I kind of sheeplishly mentioned that I had cheaped out and only bored one cylinder to Dick Paterson at Branson and he said it would be fine. I felt a lot better after he said that. Doing just the one piston saved a bunch of money. Everything else was within spec, that is, crank, bores, ect and went back with standard components.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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| Re: Engine Replacement [message #240660 is a reply to message #240655] |
Thu, 20 February 2014 21:28 |
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WD0AFQ
Messages: 7111
Registered: November 2004
Location: Dexter, Mo.
Karma: 207
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| Kerry Pinkerton wrote on Thu, 20 February 2014 21:07 |
I have no direct experience with S & J. However, when I was having my engine woes last year, I had several folks from the upper left coast recommend them. I don't recall exactly who but a couple were PMs because "they didn't want to start a vendor war".
You might get some PMs also.
That said, I did talk to them and what they told me was impressive. A COMPLETE rebuild with all new parts was something like $1800 iirc plus a core. I did ask if they would take a 455 as a suitable core for a 403 and vice versa and they said they would.
Ended up having mine rebuilt by an engine builder/GMC owner/Ken Henderson friend in Americus Ga.
The R&R (Remove and Reinstall) is a major pain and many feel that if they're going to pay to have that done, they want a TOTALLY rebuilt engine...NEW..Bore the cylinders, turn the crank, new cam, lifters, pistons, etc, etc, etc.
I did my own R&R. The other option is that if you've just got a broken ring, AND the rest of the engine is within spec, you COULD bore only that cylinder and replace the one piston oversize, new standard size rings, bearings, timing gears/chain, oil pump, etc and go on down the road. The difference in having one cylinder 20-30 thousands oversize is nothing on a 4000 max rpm engine. Certainly not as significant as having one cylinder 10 PSI down. All this is just my non-engineer shade tree car guy's opinion.
That is exactly what we ended up doing to my 403. I kind of sheeplishly mentioned that I had cheaped out and only bored one cylinder to Dick Paterson at Branson and he said it would be fine. I felt a lot better after he said that. Doing just the one piston saved a bunch of money. Everything else was within spec, that is, crank, bores, ect and went back with standard components.
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No doubt Dick has been and continues to be the best we have. I would have one of his if we could afford it but after two in a year I don't want to do another soon. Jim K had the best warranty that I knew of and he warrantied one of my engines, no questions asked. Did not realize he was not doing engines now. I mentioned him because you are there. Now I understand why you have not let him oversee a swap for you. I don't blame Jim for getting out of engine buisness if he has chosen to do so. I see it only as a money losing proposition. Too many seem to fail.
Dan
3 In Stainless Exhaust Headers
One Ton All Discs/Reaction Arm
355 FD/Quad Bag/Alum Radiator Manny Tran/New eng.
Holley EFI/10 Tire Air Monitoring System
Solarized Coach/Upgraded Windows
Satelite TV/On Demand Hot Water/3Way Refer
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| Re: Engine Replacement [message #240661 is a reply to message #240610] |
Thu, 20 February 2014 21:43 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
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Senior Member |
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There seems to be a rush to rebuild things when repair makes more sense to me. I don't know if in fact you can raise a 403 enough to get the pan off, but if you can then I would think the repair could be done in 2 dsys. Pull the intake and left head and remove piston and rod 3 out the top. Lightly hone the cyl if needed and drop in a new piston and rings on the old rod. Buy a head gasket and intake set. Button it up and run it to 100k. Parts about $100 with new oil and filter. I am assuming all other cyl comp readings were fine. AC A6 is on the even side so none of that gets in the way.
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: Engine Replacement [message #240662 is a reply to message #240655] |
Thu, 20 February 2014 22:41 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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| Kerry Pinkerton wrote on Thu, 20 February 2014 20:07 |
I have no direct experience with S & J. However, when I was having my engine woes last year, I had several folks from the upper left coast recommend them. I don't recall exactly who but a couple were PMs because "they didn't want to start a vendor war".
You might get some PMs also.
That said, I did talk to them and what they told me was impressive. A COMPLETE rebuild with all new parts was something like $1800 iirc plus a core. I did ask if they would take a 455 as a suitable core for a 403 and vice versa and they said they would.
Ended up having mine rebuilt by an engine builder/GMC owner/Ken Henderson friend in Americus Ga.
The R&R (Remove and Reinstall) is a major pain and many feel that if they're going to pay to have that done, they want a TOTALLY rebuilt engine...NEW..Bore the cylinders, turn the crank, new cam, lifters, pistons, etc, etc, etc.
I did my own R&R. The other option is that if you've just got a broken ring, AND the rest of the engine is within spec, you COULD bore only that cylinder and replace the one piston oversize, new standard size rings, bearings, timing gears/chain, oil pump, etc and go on down the road. The difference in having one cylinder 20-30 thousands oversize is nothing on a 4000 max rpm engine. Certainly not as significant as having one cylinder 10 PSI down. All this is just my non-engineer shade tree car guy's opinion.
That is exactly what we ended up doing to my 403. I kind of sheeplishly mentioned that I had cheaped out and only bored one cylinder to Dick Paterson at Branson and he said it would be fine. I felt a lot better after he said that. Doing just the one piston saved a bunch of money. Everything else was within spec, that is, crank, bores, ect and went back with standard components.
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Great approach and solution!!
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: Engine Replacement [message #240664 is a reply to message #240661] |
Thu, 20 February 2014 22:56 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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| JohnL455 wrote on Thu, 20 February 2014 21:43 |
There seems to be a rush to rebuild things when repair makes more sense to me. I don't know if in fact you can raise a 403 enough to get the pan off, but if you can then I would think the repair could be done in 2 dsys. Pull the intake and left head and remove piston and rod 3 out the top. Lightly hone the cyl if needed and drop in a new piston and rings on the old rod. Buy a head gasket and intake set. Button it up and run it to 100k. Parts about $100 with new oil and filter. I am assuming all other cyl comp readings were fine. AC A6 is on the even side so none of that gets in the way.
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As I stated in a previous thread on this subject, the late Denny Allen (from BC) did exactly what you are proposing on a trip in Georgia. He arrived two days late for a scheduled rally.
He told me he raised the engine, dropped the pan, pulled to offending rod and piston out the top and replaced the piston and rings. It took him two days including procuring the needed parts. If the wall is not scored then a honing it and replacing the piston rings ought to do it.
I had a strange issue on one of my airplane cylinders that exhibited a strange compression issue for about 4 years. Finally I pulled that cylinder and found a broken ring. There was no damage to the wall after 4 years of flying it that way. So I honed the cylinder, replaced the rings and put it all back together.
I think I would go get a bore scope and look inside that cylinder. Jim K. might have one. If not, Jim K.'s favorite place to hate, Harbor Freight, is not far away. Go buy one and take a look inside that cylinder before making a decision on what to do.
On engine rebuilders, No one beats Dick Paterson. I have never heard of a problem on a Dick Paterson engine. If there was ever a problem, Dick Paterson will stand behind it. At least give him a telephone call.
http://www.paterson-gmc.com/
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engine Replacement [message #240668 is a reply to message #240661] |
Thu, 20 February 2014 23:12 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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John,
The 403, as well as the 455, has the driver's side pan bolts obscured by
the TH-425. To pull the oil pan requires either raising the engine or
dropping the transmission. If one has a gantry available, raising the
engine may be the easier choice because it could be lifted far enough to
remove the head(s) inside the cockpit rather than "down in the hole".
Ken H.
On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 10:43 PM, John R. Lebetski wrote:
>
>
> There seems to be a rush to rebuild things when repair makes more sense to
> me. I don't know if in fact you can raise a 403 enough to get the pan off,
> but if you can then I would think the repair could be done in 2 dsys. Pull
> the intake and left head and remove piston and rod 3 out the top. Lightly
> hone the cyl if needed and drop in a new piston and rings on the old rod.
> Buy a head gasket and intake set. Button it up and run it to 100k. Parts
> about $100 with new oil and filter. I am assuming all other cyl comp
> readings were fine. AC A6 is on the even side so none of that gets in the
> way.
> --
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engine Replacement [message #240670 is a reply to message #240668] |
Fri, 21 February 2014 00:20 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Ken,
I'm a bit confused; when we removed the pan on Double Trouble we dropped the transmission and I THINK we had to raise the engine to
get the pan past No. 1 Main Bearing cap.
Also to get access to the oil pan bolts don't you have to detach the transmission from the engine to raise it by removing the bolts
that hold the transmission to the engine block and the torque convertor to the flex plate?
Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Henderson
John,
The 403, as well as the 455, has the driver's side pan bolts obscured by
the TH-425. To pull the oil pan requires either raising the engine or
dropping the transmission. If one has a gantry available, raising the
engine may be the easier choice because it could be lifted far enough to
remove the head(s) inside the cockpit rather than "down in the hole".
Ken H.
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engine Replacement [message #240686 is a reply to message #240670] |
Fri, 21 February 2014 07:50 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Rob,
Yes, you're right on all counts. The transmission and engine must be
separated to provide access to the driver's side pan bolts. After that,
the engine can be raised or the transmission lowered. The choice is sort
of a toss-up: Raising the engine requires disconnecting all of the hoses
and wiring. Lowering the transmission requires disconnecting the final
drive or the drive axles. Removing the transmission can be done with a
transmission jack, or even (precariously) with a standard floor jack,
eliminating the need for a full gantry. But in that case a cross-beam of
some sort must be used to support the rear of the engine before the
transmission is disconnected because that's the only support for the rear
of the engine.
At least the front of the engine must be raised in order to remove the pan.
But, if the transmission is removed, the front only needs to be raised a
little bit, so it probably will not be necessary to disturb even the
radiator hoses.
It's one of the worst maintainability flaws on the GMC that the
transmission obscures those pan bolts so -- but it does.
Ken H.
On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 1:20 AM, Robert Mueller wrote:
> Ken,
>
> I'm a bit confused; when we removed the pan on Double Trouble we dropped
> the transmission and I THINK we had to raise the engine to
> get the pan past No. 1 Main Bearing cap.
>
> Also to get access to the oil pan bolts don't you have to detach the
> transmission from the engine to raise it by removing the bolts
> that hold the transmission to the engine block and the torque convertor to
> the flex plate?
>
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Ken Henderson
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www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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