Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » No oil flow!
| No oil flow! [message #239249] |
Sat, 08 February 2014 21:40  |
Wander Inn
Messages: 100
Registered: January 2010
Location: Phoenix Az.
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My 73 GMC with 42,000 miles (parked for 13 years)has
40 PSI oil pressure, but no oil going to rockers.
Where do I start?
Mike
Mike & Chris Hughes
1977 Kingsley
Phoenix, Az.
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| Re: No oil flow! [message #239252 is a reply to message #239249] |
Sat, 08 February 2014 22:24  |
pyolet
Messages: 78
Registered: August 2006
Location: Helena, MT
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Mike, it might speed the diagnosis if you could provide some specifics about how you came to this conclusion....engine running or cranking, ambient temperature, age of the oil, lifter chatter, etc?
Woody.
| Wander Inn wrote on Sat, 08 February 2014 20:40 |
My 73 GMC with 42,000 miles (parked for 13 years)has
40 PSI oil pressure, but no oil going to rockers.
Where do I start?
Mike
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| Re: No oil flow! [message #239273 is a reply to message #239252] |
Sun, 09 February 2014 08:47 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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| Wander Inn wrote on Sat, 08 February 2014 20:40 |
My 73 GMC with 42,000 miles (parked for 13 years)has 40 PSI oil pressure, but no oil going to rockers.
Where do I start?
Mike
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| pyolet wrote on Sat, 08 February 2014 23:24 |
Mike, it might speed the diagnosis if you could provide some specifics about how you came to this conclusion....engine running or cranking, ambient temperature, age of the oil, lifter chatter, etc?
Woody.
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Mike,
Apart from Woody's request for information, you should be aware that hydraulic lash adjusters are very precise parts and are very prone to fouling. Sitting with dirty oil in them for 13 years will easily qualify as fouling.
Were I in your position, I would try several warm up runs with the valve gear covers off and GM rocker clips in place. If you hand oil the valve gear, there should be no damage.
If that yields no visible lube oil flow, unload the valve gear and use a pump oil can to put some solvent like kerosene or such down the push tubes (rods) and let it sit a while before you reassemble the valve gear and try again.
If this is not successful, you will have to remove the intake and take the lash adjusters out to soak them in solvent and manually pump them. The last pumping should be in clean engine oil.
Caution: If you have to disassemble and clean the last adjusters, do not allow parts to mix. Lash adjusters of this period were a selective assembly.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: No oil flow! [message #239288 is a reply to message #239249] |
Sun, 09 February 2014 10:59 |
Wander Inn
Messages: 100
Registered: January 2010
Location: Phoenix Az.
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Pulled distributor, ran oil pump with drill. This was with
new oil & filter, also blew out oil cooler lines. Engine
ran good & quiet. Lifter noise started after several 10
minute runs.
Mike
Mike & Chris Hughes
1977 Kingsley
Phoenix, Az.
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| Re: No oil flow! [message #239324 is a reply to message #239249] |
Sun, 09 February 2014 18:18 |
Wander Inn
Messages: 100
Registered: January 2010
Location: Phoenix Az.
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I really didn't want to pull the intake. If I put
compressed air into the oil gauge port would that
help blow out any blockage. Can this hurt anything?
Mike
Mike & Chris Hughes
1977 Kingsley
Phoenix, Az.
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| Re: No oil flow! [message #239331 is a reply to message #239249] |
Sun, 09 February 2014 19:21 |
Ultravan Owners
Messages: 443
Registered: March 2013
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Retired mechanic thinking out loud here..
I would NOT blow compressed air!!!
However, I would try the following:
I would continue to run the oil pump with the drill and also turn the engine over with the starter and NO spark plugs in the engine.
I would start the drill to pump the oil and then run the starter for an 8 count or so. Stop the starter - but continue with the drill.
Once you stop the starter go with a 20 count with drill and then try the starter again (with the drill too) for an 8 to 10 count then stop the starter but continue with drill and check the rockers while still running the drill.
To help save the starter I would only do this about 3 times.
Tony
Tony (Ontario Canada)
Marie and I are blessed to have had a 2nd chance to buy our farm.
Still hoping and more importantly praying to be able to build a garage.
Our 1970 Ultravan #520 has an Olds Toronado 455 in back.
[Updated on: Sun, 09 February 2014 19:22] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: No oil flow! [message #239334 is a reply to message #239331] |
Sun, 09 February 2014 19:55 |
Otterwan
Messages: 946
Registered: July 2013
Location: Lynnwood (north of Seattl...
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Years ago when we got an old gunked up engine, we would drain the oil and replace it with diesel. Run the engine for about 10 minutes, drain the diesel, replace the filter, add fresh oil, and run again. Worked fine, but I don't know if this is wise or safe but the one engine I did it on, a Chevy 350, ran for years. Maybe as a last resort?
1977 Birchaven, Lynnwood WA - "We may not be able to stop all evil in the world, but I know that how we treat one another is entirely up to us."
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| Re: [GMCnet] No oil flow! [message #239359 is a reply to message #239353] |
Sun, 09 February 2014 22:36 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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G'day,
With all due respect to those who have responded to this email before me.
Mike stated:
A) My 73 GMC with 42,000 miles (parked for 13 years) has 40 PSI oil pressure, but no oil going to rockers. Where do I start?
B) Pulled distributor, ran oil pump with drill. This was with new oil & filter also blew out oil cooler lines. Engine ran good &
quiet. Lifter noise started after several 10 minute runs.
Comments: If there's nothing coming out of the top of the pushrods to me it means:
1) oil feed to the lifters is plugged
2) lifter interior flow path plugged
3) pushrod is plugged
Since the noise didn't begin until after "several 10 minute runs" it seems to me that the lifters have collapsed
Mike doesn't want to pull the manifold but from where I sit to fix this he's going to have to do so and remove the lifters one by
one and clean them along with the pushrods.
He can kill two birds with one stone if he installs crossover block off plates.
If he continues to run the engine with no oil to the rocker arms or valves that ain't good!
Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] No oil flow! [message #239362 is a reply to message #239359] |
Sun, 09 February 2014 22:52 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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I agree with Rob. Pulling the manifold is not a pleasant job, but not too
hard either (except for the 2-ton A-6 A/C compressor). It sounds to me as
if the lifters are plugged and I've seen how badly they can clog up (I
disassembled, cleaned, reassembled, and used the lifters in the '73 Cad 500
I'm running when I first got it. I imagine that engine sounded like an old
diesel when running because the lifters were REALLY clogged up with
carbonized oil. And that engine didn't have nearly the carbon factory in
it that the Olds does on the bottom side of the intake manifold.
With only 42,000 miles, hopefully there's not much carbon debris in the
crankcase, but I'll bet there's plenty on the underside of the manifold.
TIme to get it out of there, seal the crossover to prevent further
buildup, and clean the lifters (by disassembly).
JMHO,
Ken H.
On Sun, Feb 9, 2014 at 11:36 PM, Robert Mueller wrote:
> ...
Since the noise didn't begin until after "several 10 minute runs" it seems
> to me that the lifters have collapsed
>
> Mike doesn't want to pull the manifold but from where I sit to fix this
> he's going to have to do so and remove the lifters one by
> one and clean them along with the pushrods.
>
> He can kill two birds with one stone if he installs crossover block off
> plates.
...
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: No oil flow! [message #239363 is a reply to message #239249] |
Sun, 09 February 2014 23:21 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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| Wander Inn wrote on Sat, 08 February 2014 21:40 |
My 73 GMC with 42,000 miles (parked for 13 years)has
40 PSI oil pressure, but no oil going to rockers.
Where do I start?
Mike
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Are you POSITIVE that you are running the oil pump the correct direction through the distributor hole (with the distributor removed)?
It is CCW which would be backwards if you were using the drill motor to drill a hole a or drive a screw.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: No oil flow! [message #239371 is a reply to message #239249] |
Mon, 10 February 2014 07:10 |
Ultravan Owners
Messages: 443
Registered: March 2013
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Rob,
I agree that the lifters might have leaked down. Or as you put it "collapsed".
But for a guy who rather not remove the intake - it does not hurt to at least try what I and others have laid out.
A lot of people have more time than they do $$$ now a days and some just want to learn too.
The key is to also rotate the engine while priming it with the drill.
IF he is unable to get oil flowing - then he will have to go into the engine and inspect more.
First the push rods and maybe lifters after that.
Mike,
If you are not already; you should also be using a mechanical oil pressure gauge right there with you while running the drill to prime the engine. It is good to know what oil pressure you have if any.
Please let us know what you end up doing and the results.
All the Best, Tony
Tony (Ontario Canada)
Marie and I are blessed to have had a 2nd chance to buy our farm.
Still hoping and more importantly praying to be able to build a garage.
Our 1970 Ultravan #520 has an Olds Toronado 455 in back.
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| Re: [GMCnet] No oil flow! [message #239373 is a reply to message #239371] |
Mon, 10 February 2014 07:30 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Tony,
I'm sorry but I disagree.
It has been noted that this engine has run for "several" ten minute runs; I interpret several to mean 3 so the engine has run for 30
minutes.
Do you think there was enough residual oil on the pushrod to rocker arm contact points, rocker arm pivots, rocker arm to valve stem
contact points, and valve stems after sitting for 13 years not to cause a problem?
I don't think there is and if the guy is reticent to remove the intake manifold I reckon he'll even be less happy to remove the
heads and have a valve job done if the valve stems mess up the guides.
Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: Tony
Rob,
I agree that the lifters might have leaked down. Or as you put it "collapsed".
But for a guy who rather not remove the intake - it does not hurt to at least try what I and others have laid out.
A lot of people have more time than they do $$$ now a days and some just want to learn too.
The key is to also rotate the engine while priming it with the drill.
IF he is unable to get oil flowing - then he will have to go into the engine and inspect more.
First the push rods and maybe lifters after that.
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: No oil flow! [message #239389 is a reply to message #239288] |
Mon, 10 February 2014 09:47 |
corleyw
Messages: 130
Registered: June 2007
Location: Battle Ground, WA
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If it did not start rattling until after 10 minutes of running, it would seem to me that the lifters were not collapsed, starved, stuck, until after it had run for a while. The rattle will start right away (as in almost immediately, not after 10 minutes) when lifters are not lifting properly.
SO, does the area on top of the heads have dried up old oil ONLY, or does it have the dried up old oil with a new layer of wet oil on top of that? It's not getting oil now, but did it get some for a while, then stop oiling the upper end?
Not sure about how the OLDs oil system runs, but on some engines a spun main or cam bearng insert could cause it to stop feeding the lifters...
Lastly, did you spin the oil pump the right direction? CCW
PS I'd NEVER even consider dumping diesel or other engine cleaners in this until the problem is isolated, and even after that, I'd run it for quite a few miles before that sort of shock treatment. You will loosen up a lot of crap all at once, and could take out a bearing very easily doing that. Much better to let the crap soften with warm oil first. JMHO
Corley
'76 Glenbrook
29 other vehicles
[Updated on: Mon, 10 February 2014 09:52] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: No oil flow! [message #239398 is a reply to message #239249] |
Mon, 10 February 2014 11:01 |
Ultravan Owners
Messages: 443
Registered: March 2013
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Rob,
I understand your point and others as well.
Everyone has their way of doing things.
However, to be completely honest about this - none of us are there getting the information first hand and we do not have all or enough information to be 100% either way.
1) most peolpe run an engine before changing the oil -
a. Was the oil change after a short start up?
b. or was it changed before doing anything?
c. When blowing out the oil cooling lines - did air possibly get trapped some how and just maybe the oil can not move throughly thoughout the engine? (Another reason why it is a good idea to rotate the engine while priming it. It allows the lifters to go up and down and line up with the oil passageways to have better flow. And I do NOT mean run it. I mean use the starter or have someone hand crank it with a ratchet while turning the drill in the correct direction.) Also if one is concerned about rock arm ball or stud damage you can put a little oil on each rocker before rotating the engine. It will be clear to notice the difference once oil is getting to the top end.
2) Did he ever use an oil pressure gauge to know what oil pressure the engine did have? What was that oil pressure?
3) Which direction has he been truning the drill? (We do not have a reply to that either and others have asked that as well.)
EDIT: No spark plugs in the engine when rotating the engine. This allows it to spin over faster and easier.
Tony (Ontario Canada)
Marie and I are blessed to have had a 2nd chance to buy our farm.
Still hoping and more importantly praying to be able to build a garage.
Our 1970 Ultravan #520 has an Olds Toronado 455 in back.
[Updated on: Mon, 10 February 2014 11:03] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: [GMCnet] No oil flow! [message #239443 is a reply to message #239389] |
Mon, 10 February 2014 17:06 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Cory,
Response interspersed in your question for clarity in CAPS (not shouting).
Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: Corley Wooldridge
If it did not start rattling until after 10 minutes of running, it would seem to me that the lifters were not collapsed, starved,
stuck, until after it had run for a while. The rattle will start right away (as in almost immediately, not after 10 minutes) when
lifters are not lifting properly.
HERE'S A LINK TO THE CROSS SECTION OF A HYDRAULIC LIFTER:
http://performancetrends.com/Definitions/Images/Hydraulic-Lifter-Lrg.jpg
IF THE INLET AND OUTLET PASSAGES WERE PLUGGED OR NO OIL WAS BEING FED TO THEM I RECKON IT WOULD TAKE SOME TIME FOR THE ENGINE / OIL
TO GET UP TO TEMP AT IDLE AND THE VALVE SPRING PRESSURE TO FORCE THE PISTON IN THE LIFTER DOWN AND SQUEEZE OIL OUT OF THE RESERVOIR
AND BEGIN RATTLING.
SO, does the area on top of the heads have dried up old oil ONLY, or does it have the dried up old oil with a new layer of wet oil
on top of that? It's not getting oil now, but did it get some for a while, then stop oiling the upper end?
I DID NOT SAY THAT THERE WAS "DRIED UP OIL" I NOTED THAT THERE WOULD ONLY BE A RESIDUAL OIL FILM WHICH NOT BE SUFFICENT TO LUBRICATE
THE ROCKER ARMS AND VALVE STEMS. I HAVE NO IDEA IF IT GOT OIL FOR A WHILE BUT THEN STOPPED.
Not sure about how the OLDs oil system runs, but on some engines a spun main or cam bearng insert could cause it to stop feeding the
lifters...
HERE'S A LINK TO THE OLDS OIL SYSTEM, AS NOTED IN THE DESCRIPTION UNDER THE PHOTO THE LIFTERS ARE FED DIRECTLY FROM THE OIL
GALLERIES SO A SPUN CAM BEARING WOULD NOT EFFECT THAT SYSTEM.
Lastly, did you spin the oil pump the right direction? CCW
CORRECT
PS I'd NEVER even consider dumping diesel or other engine cleaners in this until the problem is isolated, and even after that, I'd
run it for quite a few miles before that sort of shock treatment. You will loosen up a lot of crap all at once, and could take out
a bearing very easily doing that. JMHO
AGREED!
I WOULD SUGGEST:
1) REMOVE THE INTAKE MANIFOLD
2) REMOVE THE VALVE COVERS
3) REMOVE THE ROCKER ARMS
4) REMOVE THE PUSHRODS
5) REMOVE THE LIFTERS - PUT THEM IN ZIP LOC BAGS AND NUMBER THEM SO YOU PUT THEM BACK IN THE SAME HOLES!
6) SPIN THE OIL PUMP CCW AND VERIFY OIL FLOW FROM THE LIFTER SUPPLY HOLES
7) CHECK / CLEAN THE PUSHRODS
8) DISASSEMBLE / CHECK / CLEAN THE LIFTERS ONE AT A TIME
9) REINSTALL THE LIFTERS
10) REINSTALL THE PUSHRODS
11) REINSTALL THE ROCKER ARMS
12) SPIN THE OIL PUMP CCW UNTIL YOU GET OIL TO EACH ROCKER ARM.
13) REINSTALL THE VALVE COVERS
14) REINSTALL THE INTAKE MANIFOLD USING DICK PATERSON'S BLOCK OFF GASKET KIT
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] No oil flow! [message #239445 is a reply to message #239444] |
Mon, 10 February 2014 17:24 |
hal kading
Messages: 642
Registered: February 2004
Location: Las Cruces NM
Karma: 4
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Cory - Rob,
Add to step 1. Check intake manifold for cracks before re-installing. May need to replace or fill before re-using.
Hal Kading 78 Buskirk Las Cruces NM
Hal Kading 1978 Buskirk Stretch 502 Las Cruces NM
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| Re: [GMCnet] No oil flow! [message #239458 is a reply to message #239443] |
Mon, 10 February 2014 18:30 |
corleyw
Messages: 130
Registered: June 2007
Location: Battle Ground, WA
Karma: 0
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Rob,
You said:
"HERE'S A LINK TO THE CROSS SECTION OF A HYDRAULIC LIFTER:
http://performancetrends.com/Definitions/Images/Hydraulic-Lifter-Lrg.jpg
IF THE INLET AND OUTLET PASSAGES WERE PLUGGED OR NO OIL WAS BEING FED TO THEM I RECKON IT WOULD TAKE SOME TIME FOR THE ENGINE / OIL
TO GET UP TO TEMP AT IDLE AND THE VALVE SPRING PRESSURE TO FORCE THE PISTON IN THE LIFTER DOWN AND SQUEEZE OIL OUT OF THE RESERVOIR
AND BEGIN RATTLING."
BUT, here is what you forgot about. Several of the lifters were probably collapsed after sitting that long.
If this thing has sat for that long, several of the valves would have been open with the engine stopped and sitting there all that time. Those lifters typically will leak down over time, so immediately upon starting it after the long hibernation, those collapsed lifters should start rattling, UNLESS they are being fed oil, to pump them back up. That has always been my experience on hyd. lifter engines that have sat for a long time.
I've had my fair share of lifters apart for cleaning, so I don't need a diagram to know how they work. I'm only trying to interpret the symptoms as presented, and not read anything into them. He said it started rattling after about 30 minutes of operation, not right away. Therefore, I think it had oil pressure to the lifters on initial startup.
Now on to another caution: Recently, my idiot nephew started up a low miles Cad 500 after it had sat for about 15 years, and immediately upon starting it, he goosed it real hard "to break loose the stuck rear brakes". Since the valves stems didn't have any lub on them yet, it bent several of the push rods. The moral: Avoid high RPMs on an engine that has been sitting until it has warmed up thoroughly, and oil has had a chance to circ. throughout. His Clark Cortez with Cad 500 is now on the dead line, and he is too dumb to be able to fix it. (I don't deal with idiocy well... My nephew, not anyone here...  )
Corley
'76 Glenbrook
29 other vehicles
[Updated on: Mon, 10 February 2014 21:26] Report message to a moderator |
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