Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] Engine Rebuilder Score Card
| [GMCnet] Engine Rebuilder Score Card [message #238542] |
Sun, 02 February 2014 15:44  |
Sharon Work
Messages: 9
Registered: April 2012
Karma: 0
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Junior Member |
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Engine Rebuilder Score Card
In the twelve years that we have been owners of at least one GMC we have heard from many, many owners about the trials and tribulations associated with replacing the engine in one of these coaches. Some of that discussion has centered on the various methods and/or vendors to do the R & R, but most has centered on finding a reliable, cost effective engine re-builder.
There has been lots of anecdotal comments about experiences with the various re-builders, but not much in the way of objective information. I think it is past time that we the owners create an Engine Rebuilder Score Card of our own so those who face this issue in the future will at least have the benefit of direct experiential input from those who have actually acquired engines from different rebuilders.
I envision this being an unmanaged rating service similar to what most of us see on the many commercial web sites that sell products of all kinds. Those who purchase, or who have in the past purchased, an engine from a rebuilder would be free to post their experience without anyone monitoring or policing the posts. As with all such rating systems it would be up to reader to determine how much stake to put into these posts.
Ideally, one of our major vendors, or one of our GMC info gurus with an existing strong web presence, or one of the open GMC Club web sites would set up the means to accomplish this objective. That would provide the best means to insure this information is archived for a long time so new and existing owners alike would have open access to these posts. If none of our major vendors or info gurus or clubs wants to take this on, then for the short run I would be happy to host this information on my web site. Once a quarter my plan would be to summarize the postings for inclusion on the GMC Forum, or the photo site, or
I do not have the knowledge to do this in any sophisticated way, so it would be email for the input and I would transfer that to some kind of a score card on a page in my web site.
Let me know your thoughts and if you think this would be a valuable service to our community. Speak loudly if you have the means and interest to do this on a more GMC centric web site!
Jerry
Jerry Work
The Dovetail Joint
Fine furniture designed and hand crafted in the 1907 former Masonic Temple building in historic Kerby, OR
Visitors always welcome!
glwork@mac.com
http://jerrywork.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engine Rebuilder Score Card [message #238551 is a reply to message #238546] |
Sun, 02 February 2014 17:05  |
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Richard RV
Messages: 631
Registered: July 2012
Location: Full-timer for 12 years, ...
Karma: -17
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| Ken Henderson wrote on Sun, 02 February 2014 15:39 |
0-5 Stars?
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I like the idea. It would be useful to have a little more nuanced scoring than a straight grade.
Maybe 1 to 5 wrenches for the mechanical work, 1 to 5 dollar signs for cost/value, and 1 to 5 clocks for turnaround speed.
It would take marginally longer to grade a rebuild but the reader would be able to weight the categories to more effectively reflect their sensitivities.
Richard
'77 Birchaven TZE...777;
'76 Palm Beach under construction;
‘76 Edgemont waiting its turn
[Updated on: Sun, 02 February 2014 17:07] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engine Rebuilder Score Card [message #238559 is a reply to message #238542] |
Sun, 02 February 2014 17:40 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Jerry,
This idea has merit only IF the people that provide information provide FACTS not OPINIONS!
I think we could handle this the same way we handled the Fire Prevention consensus.
I would be happy to compile the data once WE've figgered out what should be recorded.
I think we need to figger out what information should be recorded.
Common sense says that a high dollar engine from Mondello should be "better" than one from "Bubba."
Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
-----Original Message-----
From: Sharon Work
Engine Rebuilder Score Card
In the twelve years that we have been owners of at least one GMC we have heard from many, many owners about the trials and
tribulations associated with replacing the engine in one of these coaches. Some of that discussion has centered on the various
methods and/or vendors to do the R & R, but most has centered on finding a reliable, cost effective engine re-builder.
There has been lots of anecdotal comments about experiences with the various re-builders, but not much in the way of objective
information. I think it is past time that we the owners create an Engine Rebuilder Score Card of our own so those who face this
issue in the future will at least have the benefit of direct experiential input from those who have actually acquired engines from
different rebuilders.
I envision this being an unmanaged "rating" service similar to what most of us see on the many commercial web sites that sell
products of all kinds. Those who purchase, or who have in the past purchased, an engine from a rebuilder would be free to post
their experience without anyone monitoring or policing the posts. As with all such rating systems it would be up to reader to
determine how much stake to put into these posts.
Ideally, one of our major vendors, or one of our GMC info gurus with an existing strong web presence, or one of the open GMC Club
web sites would set up the means to accomplish this objective. That would provide the best means to insure this information is
archived for a long time so new and existing owners alike would have open access to these posts. If none of our major vendors or
info gurus or clubs wants to take this on, then for the short run I would be happy to host this information on my web site. Once a
quarter my "plan" would be to summarize the postings for inclusion on the GMC Forum, or the photo site, or...
I do not have the knowledge to do this in any sophisticated way, so it would be email for the input and I would transfer that to
some kind of a score card on a page in my web site.
Let me know your thoughts and if you think this would be a valuable service to our community. Speak loudly if you have the means
and interest to do this on a more GMC centric web site!
Jerry
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Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engine Rebuilder Score Card [message #238563 is a reply to message #238559] |
Sun, 02 February 2014 18:04 |
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Richard RV
Messages: 631
Registered: July 2012
Location: Full-timer for 12 years, ...
Karma: -17
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Senior Member |
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| USAussie wrote on Sun, 02 February 2014 16:40 |
Jerry,
This idea has merit only IF the people that provide information provide FACTS not OPINIONS!
|
Rob, how could a rating be anything else but an opinion? Even if the review were somehow constrained to the facts, the rebuilder would have a divergent viewpoint, and the reader may not have enough technical savvy to know the difference. That last is talking about me, BTW.
I've read negative Amazon reviews which persuaded me to purchase something more than the positive reviews did. There's no getting around there'd have to be a lot of reading between the lines and taking any review with a grain of salt, but it would be a start.
Now off to Google to find out where the "a grain of salt" expression came from!
Richard
'77 Birchaven TZE...777;
'76 Palm Beach under construction;
‘76 Edgemont waiting its turn
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engine Rebuilder Score Card [message #238567 is a reply to message #238542] |
Sun, 02 February 2014 18:24 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Having replaced over 80 engines, I can appreciate what Jerry is addressing.
I can tell you that we have taken a terrific hit on short commings of
rebuilt engines from several great machine shops.
I have heard and seen poor reports from big name engine rebuildrs.
The big difference I see between a new engine from the big 3 American
manufactres is the quality of workmenship that the big 3 put into their
engines.
I have spoken with few people that have been involved with the big 3 engine
manufacturing. They tell me that the standard that they have is so high,
the average machine shop cannot begin to match their standards.
Most machine shop must farm out crank work to an outside source and block
to another, then bring it in and assemble them.
I can tell you that in a real world, there is pressure to get it assembled
and meet the time commitment.
When one inspect the crank and find that the thrust bearing surface is not
satisfactory, there is not enough time to send the crank back and have it
redone.
I have had an outstanding crank shop send me a crank that was bagged and
cleaned, ready to drop in.
Just to be sure, we rifel cleaned the oil channels and found grit coming
out of the holes.
Sometimes the connecting rods were rebored inconsistently and needed to be
returned to be redone.
The lower end of any engine that goes into our coaches are very critical as
the gear ratio on our GMC are too high.
When we compare a comparable coach of another brand with same size tire,
they run considerably lower ratio.
They run 4.10 -- 4.56. Ours are 3.07-- 3.70.
The moment the unit hits the road, the engine is lugging in high gear and
turning around 2.200 rpm.
The load on the crank and connecting rods are terrific compared to the ones
on a SOB (Some Other Brand) coach that is turning over 3,000 rpm and
turning freely and not lugging.
I personally feel that we need to look at a new crate engine as the
reliability factor is defiantly there.
Dave Lenzi has done this and few have gone that route.
Major draw back is the price, but it is better to put out the funds out
front than to spend more later.
We have replace few with the big block Chevrolet crate engine with great
result.
There are few thing that need to be done to adapt the engine to mate to the
existing transmission and final drive.
On need not need to go with the fancy fuel injection unit, but can go
carbureted, or throttle body EFI.
I know another person that will be doing this to help those that want to
elect to go that way.He is not ready yet.
95% of problem with rebuilds have been the lower end.
On Sun, Feb 2, 2014 at 1:44 PM, Sharon Work <sharonwork@mac.com> wrote:
> Engine Rebuilder Score Card
>
> In the twelve years that we have been owners of at least one GMC we have
> heard from many, many owners about the trials and tribulations associated
> with replacing the engine in one of these coaches. Some of that discussion
> has centered on the various methods and/or vendors to do the R & R, but
> most has centered on finding a reliable, cost effective engine re-builder.
>
> There has been lots of anecdotal comments about experiences with the
> various re-builders, but not much in the way of objective information. I
> think it is past time that we the owners create an Engine Rebuilder Score
> Card of our own so those who face this issue in the future will at least
> have the benefit of direct experiential input from those who have actually
> acquired engines from different rebuilders.
>
> I envision this being an unmanaged “rating” service similar to what most
> of us see on the many commercial web sites that sell products of all kinds.
> Those who purchase, or who have in the past purchased, an engine from a
> rebuilder would be free to post their experience without anyone monitoring
> or policing the posts. As with all such rating systems it would be up to
> reader to determine how much stake to put into these posts.
>
> Ideally, one of our major vendors, or one of our GMC info gurus with an
> existing strong web presence, or one of the open GMC Club web sites would
> set up the means to accomplish this objective. That would provide the best
> means to insure this information is archived for a long time so new and
> existing owners alike would have open access to these posts. If none of
> our major vendors or info gurus or clubs wants to take this on, then for
> the short run I would be happy to host this information on my web site.
> Once a quarter my “plan” would be to summarize the postings for inclusion
> on the GMC Forum, or the photo site, or………
>
> I do not have the knowledge to do this in any sophisticated way, so it
> would be email for the input and I would transfer that to some kind of a
> score card on a page in my web site.
>
> Let me know your thoughts and if you think this would be a valuable
> service to our community. Speak loudly if you have the means and interest
> to do this on a more GMC centric web site!
>
> Jerry
> Jerry Work
> The Dovetail Joint
> Fine furniture designed and hand crafted in the 1907 former Masonic Temple
> building in historic Kerby, OR
> Visitors always welcome!
> glwork@mac.com
> http://jerrywork.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engine Rebuilder Score Card [message #238570 is a reply to message #238567] |
Sun, 02 February 2014 18:34 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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I can tell you that a high priced engines are no better than another
average one as it is dependent on who worked on it.
Since there are 3-6 people involved in the process, it's a gamble.
I have installed several from each or the Big Name shops.
I have not had any problem from ones from Dick Patterson.
I have great relationship with all, so I am only stating my experience only.
On Sun, Feb 2, 2014 at 4:24 PM, Jim Kanomata <jimkanomata@gmail.com> wrote:
> Having replaced over 80 engines, I can appreciate what Jerry is addressing.
> I can tell you that we have taken a terrific hit on short commings of
> rebuilt engines from several great machine shops.
> I have heard and seen poor reports from big name engine rebuildrs.
> The big difference I see between a new engine from the big 3 American
> manufactres is the quality of workmenship that the big 3 put into their
> engines.
> I have spoken with few people that have been involved with the big 3
> engine manufacturing. They tell me that the standard that they have is so
> high, the average machine shop cannot begin to match their standards.
> Most machine shop must farm out crank work to an outside source and block
> to another, then bring it in and assemble them.
> I can tell you that in a real world, there is pressure to get it assembled
> and meet the time commitment.
> When one inspect the crank and find that the thrust bearing surface is not
> satisfactory, there is not enough time to send the crank back and have it
> redone.
> I have had an outstanding crank shop send me a crank that was bagged and
> cleaned, ready to drop in.
> Just to be sure, we rifel cleaned the oil channels and found grit coming
> out of the holes.
> Sometimes the connecting rods were rebored inconsistently and needed to be
> returned to be redone.
> The lower end of any engine that goes into our coaches are very critical
> as the gear ratio on our GMC are too high.
> When we compare a comparable coach of another brand with same size tire,
> they run considerably lower ratio.
> They run 4.10 -- 4.56. Ours are 3.07-- 3.70.
> The moment the unit hits the road, the engine is lugging in high gear and
> turning around 2.200 rpm.
> The load on the crank and connecting rods are terrific compared to the
> ones on a SOB (Some Other Brand) coach that is turning over 3,000 rpm and
> turning freely and not lugging.
> I personally feel that we need to look at a new crate engine as the
> reliability factor is defiantly there.
> Dave Lenzi has done this and few have gone that route.
> Major draw back is the price, but it is better to put out the funds out
> front than to spend more later.
> We have replace few with the big block Chevrolet crate engine with great
> result.
> There are few thing that need to be done to adapt the engine to mate to
> the existing transmission and final drive.
> On need not need to go with the fancy fuel injection unit, but can go
> carbureted, or throttle body EFI.
> I know another person that will be doing this to help those that want to
> elect to go that way.He is not ready yet.
> 95% of problem with rebuilds have been the lower end.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Feb 2, 2014 at 1:44 PM, Sharon Work <sharonwork@mac.com> wrote:
>
>> Engine Rebuilder Score Card
>>
>> In the twelve years that we have been owners of at least one GMC we have
>> heard from many, many owners about the trials and tribulations associated
>> with replacing the engine in one of these coaches. Some of that discussion
>> has centered on the various methods and/or vendors to do the R & R, but
>> most has centered on finding a reliable, cost effective engine re-builder.
>>
>> There has been lots of anecdotal comments about experiences with the
>> various re-builders, but not much in the way of objective information. I
>> think it is past time that we the owners create an Engine Rebuilder Score
>> Card of our own so those who face this issue in the future will at least
>> have the benefit of direct experiential input from those who have actually
>> acquired engines from different rebuilders.
>>
>> I envision this being an unmanaged “rating” service similar to what most
>> of us see on the many commercial web sites that sell products of all kinds.
>> Those who purchase, or who have in the past purchased, an engine from a
>> rebuilder would be free to post their experience without anyone monitoring
>> or policing the posts. As with all such rating systems it would be up to
>> reader to determine how much stake to put into these posts.
>>
>> Ideally, one of our major vendors, or one of our GMC info gurus with an
>> existing strong web presence, or one of the open GMC Club web sites would
>> set up the means to accomplish this objective. That would provide the best
>> means to insure this information is archived for a long time so new and
>> existing owners alike would have open access to these posts. If none of
>> our major vendors or info gurus or clubs wants to take this on, then for
>> the short run I would be happy to host this information on my web site.
>> Once a quarter my “plan” would be to summarize the postings for inclusion
>> on the GMC Forum, or the photo site, or………
>>
>> I do not have the knowledge to do this in any sophisticated way, so it
>> would be email for the input and I would transfer that to some kind of a
>> score card on a page in my web site.
>>
>> Let me know your thoughts and if you think this would be a valuable
>> service to our community. Speak loudly if you have the means and interest
>> to do this on a more GMC centric web site!
>>
>> Jerry
>> Jerry Work
>> The Dovetail Joint
>> Fine furniture designed and hand crafted in the 1907 former Masonic
>> Temple building in historic Kerby, OR
>> Visitors always welcome!
>> glwork@mac.com
>> http://jerrywork.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Jim Kanomata
> Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
> jimk@appliedairfilters.com
> http://www.appliedgmc.com
> 1-800-752-7502
>
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engine Rebuilder Score Card [message #238595 is a reply to message #238563] |
Mon, 03 February 2014 07:30 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Richard,
Sorry, after reading your response I realized that I did not communicate my thoughts well; I trust the following will clarify what I
meant by facts.
What I envisioned information provided on the engine as something like this:
Engine Rebuilder:
Parts Used:
Date Engine Installed:
Mileage At Installation:
Current Mileage:
Oil Change Intervals:
Filter Change Intervals:
Oil Consumption:
Problems To Date:
Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard
Rob, how could a rating be anything else but an opinion? Even if the review were somehow constrained to the facts, the rebuilder
would have a divergent viewpoint, and the reader may not have enough technical savvy to know the difference. That last is talking
about me, BTW.
I've read negative Amazon reviews which persuaded me to purchase something more than the positive reviews did. There's no getting
around there'd have to be a lot of reading between the lines and taking any review with a grain of salt, but it would be a start.
Now off to Google to find out where the "a grain of salt" expression came from!
Richard
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engine Rebuilder Score Card [message #238599 is a reply to message #238595] |
Mon, 03 February 2014 08:28 |
GMC_LES
Messages: 569
Registered: October 2009
Location: Montreal
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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I also suggest that the name of the shop/person who installed the engine be recorded. An inexperienced installer could affect the results if a serious enough blunder was committed.
There are so many variables that can affect the successful installation of a rebuilt engine. Was it a short-block or long- block rebuild with final assembly by installer? Or did the rebuilder do a complete build up including outside dressing and initial start-up?
Just decyphering the results of such a data base would require some basic knowledge of what an engine overhaul/ replacement involves. The data could easy be mi-understood by those that search for a simple good/bad comment.
I also have used negative comments to convince me that an item was worth buying. You need to read between the lines!
Les Burt
Montreal
1975 Eleganza 26ft
A work in Progress
On Feb 3, 2014, at 8:30 AM, "Robert Mueller" <robmueller@iinet.net.au> wrote:
Richard,
Sorry, after reading your response I realized that I did not communicate my thoughts well; I trust the following will clarify what I
meant by facts.
What I envisioned information provided on the engine as something like this:
Engine Rebuilder:
Parts Used:
Date Engine Installed:
Mileage At Installation:
Current Mileage:
Oil Change Intervals:
Filter Change Intervals:
Oil Consumption:
Problems To Date:
Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard
Rob, how could a rating be anything else but an opinion? Even if the review were somehow constrained to the facts, the rebuilder
would have a divergent viewpoint, and the reader may not have enough technical savvy to know the difference. That last is talking
about me, BTW.
I've read negative Amazon reviews which persuaded me to purchase something more than the positive reviews did. There's no getting
around there'd have to be a lot of reading between the lines and taking any review with a grain of salt, but it would be a start.
Now off to Google to find out where the "a grain of salt" expression came from!
Richard
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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Les Burt
Montreal
1975 Eleganza 26ft
A work in Progress
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engine Rebuilder Score Card [message #238636 is a reply to message #238570] |
Mon, 03 February 2014 12:57 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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Auto engine rebuilders in the main don't put the time and effort we used to do on aviation flat motors. Probably for the reasons you mentioned, the price would escalate out of sight. They are in it for the mass market. The purists - you mention Patterson, Bounds mentions Drew Koba, others mention Mondello aren't doing a volume business... and those who know what their stuff is worth will pay for it. The skates and used car floggers buy price from Jasper et al and sell it quickly. For the mechanically inclined, it probably makes sense to buy a core and do it yourself. Plasti-Guage is cheap. , it's paying a tech to guage ever split bearing tin the assembly which runs to money. Dial guages are available - albeit not real cheap - but paying the tech to gauge each cylinder in three places and again at right angles runs to time which is money. Likewise cam journals, etc. etc.
Pick brains on the gurus, decide whose idea(s) you like and which have longevity demonstrated, and have at it.
--johnny
________________________________
From: Jim Kanomata <jimkanomata@gmail.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Sunday, February 2, 2014 7:34 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Engine Rebuilder Score Card
I can tell you that a high priced engines are no better than another
average one as it is dependent on who worked on it.
Since there are 3-6 people involved in the process, it's a gamble.
I have installed several from each or the Big Name shops.
I have not had any problem from ones from Dick Patterson.
I have great relationship with all, so I am only stating my experience only.
On Sun, Feb 2, 2014 at 4:24 PM, Jim Kanomata <jimkanomata@gmail.com> wrote:
> Having replaced over 80 engines, I can appreciate what Jerry is addressing.
> I can tell you that we have taken a terrific hit on short commings of
> rebuilt engines from several great machine shops.
> I have heard and seen poor reports from big name engine rebuildrs.
> The big difference I see between a new engine from the big 3 American
> manufactres is the quality of workmenship that the big 3 put into their
> engines.
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engine Rebuilder Score Card [message #238812 is a reply to message #238567] |
Tue, 04 February 2014 20:34 |
roy1
Messages: 2126
Registered: July 2004
Location: Minden nevada
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Jim I agree with you on that one. If the bottom end isn't done right chances are really great a spun rod bearing is in your not so distant future and that will most likely happen far from home. In my younger days I never gave things like that a thought but these days I am a little wiser.
Roy Keen
Minden,NV
76 X Glenbrook
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engine Rebuilder Score Card [message #238817 is a reply to message #238567] |
Tue, 04 February 2014 21:13 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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""I personally feel that we need to look at a new crate engine as the
reliability factor is defiantly there.""
Jim, your comments have a lot of merit. During my 32 years at GM, I drove hundreds of prototypes and invariably, prototype engines suffered some type of failure--not because of design issues but because of hand machining and assembly issues. These engines were built by the best available techs in the business, but there are simply too many things to go wrong. Engines that come down the line at production rates are dead reliable and totally consistant in every aspect. One minor assembly or machining goof and the engine is trash. The production processes are fine tuned to perfection. Even members here who have slaved over the details on their own rebuild(s) have suffered catastrophic failures--some almost instantly.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engine Rebuilder Score Card [message #238863 is a reply to message #238817] |
Wed, 05 February 2014 09:35 |
Larry
Messages: 2875
Registered: January 2004
Location: Menomonie, WI
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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This statement is not based on fact...just my observation and experienced opinion. The more you modify a motor...away from the original design the less reliable it is likely to be. Generally speaking the factory design's motors to get well past the warrantee period. So, standards and tolleances at the assembly line are closely watched. That stock motor is really put together right. If they didn't, imagine the money and business they would loose to bad reputation. They also build for "worst possible senerios"...the guy that never changes the oil, because he is going to trade it at 50K anyway. So a certain amount of durability is essential.
Incredably, the least troublesome rebuilds that I have done, were the "quick and dirty" ones. Motors that I did for friends that just did not have the money to "do it right". Often those rebuilds were done *in* the car and were rebuilt because the motor was loosing power, and burning a lot of oil. Often this rebuild included no more than cleaning up the pistons to accept a new set of rings, and then just doing a quick hone on the cylinder walls with a medium stone so that the rings
would break in properly. If the valves were not burned and looked OK, they were reinstalled without grinding and a new set of valve guide seals were installed. Main and rods were plastigaged and if within specs, just put back together without changing or doing anything to them. Then new gaskets....button it up...do a couple of quick oil changes to get the crap that will settle to the pan out, and drive it. Got quite a few of those out there with lots of miles on them. Haven't had a comeback yet. (Knock on wood)
For more see this:
http://www.gmceast.com/Rebuilding%20that%20Motor%20-watermarked.pdf
JMHO
Larry 
78 Royale w/500 Caddy
Menomonie, WI.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engine Rebuilder Score Card [message #238901 is a reply to message #238542] |
Wed, 05 February 2014 16:18 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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Senior Member |
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Ken Henderson recently had a long email conversation with Doc Frommer, the Caddy master himself regarding how the factory designed the heads for planned wear. I don't recall the specifics but perhaps Ken will chime in.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engine Rebuilder Score Card [message #238919 is a reply to message #238901] |
Wed, 05 February 2014 18:55 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Doc Frohmader said his discussions with Cad engineers revealed that they
had a lot of trouble determining how deeply to harden the seats when that
became necessary in the early 70's. Too hard lead to cracks, IIRC. Their
final selection was to harden deeply enough to get through the warranty and
one valve grind. Doesn't bode well for my oversized valves without seat
inserts, does it?
Ken H.
On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 5:18 PM, Kerry Pinkerton wrote:
>
> Ken Henderson recently had a long email conversation with Doc Frommer, the
> Caddy master himself regarding how the factory designed the heads for
> planned wear. I don't recall the specifics but perhaps Ken will chime in.
> --
_______________________________________________
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engine Rebuilder Score Card [message #238925 is a reply to message #238919] |
Wed, 05 February 2014 19:33 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Ken,
Obviously if your heads develop a problem you could install a pair of stock heads.
If you want to have stellite valve seats installed the machinist that worked for Jerry Potter did mine no problem.
Unfortunately Jerry has passed away and it might take me a bit of research to find the machinist in Soddy-Daisy, TN that did the
job.
Cad Co told me that they threw out heads that needed seats. I didn't discuss it with MTS.
Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Henderson
Doc Frohmader said his discussions with Cad engineers revealed that they
had a lot of trouble determining how deeply to harden the seats when that
became necessary in the early 70's. Too hard lead to cracks, IIRC. Their
final selection was to harden deeply enough to get through the warranty and
one valve grind. Doesn't bode well for my oversized valves without seat
inserts, does it?
Ken H.
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engine Rebuilder Score Card [message #238931 is a reply to message #238925] |
Wed, 05 February 2014 20:15 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Rob,
I'm sure John Beaver could determine the correct seats to use and install
them. He was inclined to do that this time around, but the CadCo comments
made me reluctant to try it.
Or, I've got a spare set of heads. They're very rusty, but otherwise
should be good. We'll probably go ahead and prep them, especially if John
decides to install the '76 I've got at his shop into his GMC. Just so
we'll have spares available. Sort of like an old HS guy I know. :-)
I've been busy the past couple of days redoing the EFI wiring in the GMC.
When I installed it, I knew very little about EFI and wanted access to
almost every signal, thus the series of terminal strips around the hatch
rail. Now that I understand what's going on better and know what signals I
may want to measure or 'scope, all those obstructions to ordinary service
are no longer needed. So, I'm splicing and soldering the connections that
were on screw lug terminal strips and re-looming everything. It will be
nice to again have access to the right side of the engine from above, a
convenience I lost with the terminal strips mounted.
Ken H.
On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 8:33 PM, Robert Mueller wrote:
> Ken,
>
> Obviously if your heads develop a problem you could install a pair of
> stock heads.
>
> If you want to have stellite valve seats installed the machinist that
> worked for Jerry Potter did mine no problem.
>
> Unfortunately Jerry has passed away and it might take me a bit of research
> to find the machinist in Soddy-Daisy, TN that did the
> job.
>
> Cad Co told me that they threw out heads that needed seats. I didn't
> discuss it with MTS.
>
>
_______________________________________________
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Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engine Rebuilder Score Card [message #238937 is a reply to message #238931] |
Wed, 05 February 2014 21:35 |
|
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Ken,
I have noted before that when I started the Caddy 500 LPG Engine Project I contacted CadCo, MTS, and Potter Automotive. I learned
the Jerry Potter was the Joe Mondello of Caddy 500's.
I explained what I wanted to do to all three companies and selected Jerry because:
1) CadCo told me the same thing about valve seats and when I noted that I was building an engine that was going to run on LPG they
reiterated their opinion. I then asked if they had ever built a Caddy 500 that ran on LPG and was told NOPE! Things that make you go
Hmmmmmm?
2) Jerry Potter noted that he had several customers that built Caddy 500s that ran on LPG and while the heads had induction hardened
seats and probably would be OK installing stellite seats would be best. I told him that the machine shop in Houston I used for the
machine work had hit water when they installed stellite seats in the heads I had given them. He said he would speak with his
machinist. I called him a few days later and he said his machinist sad he could do it no problem and if he screwed up the heads he'd
buy them! That's why I selected Jerry for my parts.
Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Henderson
Rob,
I'm sure John Beaver could determine the correct seats to use and install
them. He was inclined to do that this time around, but the CadCo comments
made me reluctant to try it.
Or, I've got a spare set of heads. They're very rusty, but otherwise
should be good. We'll probably go ahead and prep them, especially if John
decides to install the '76 I've got at his shop into his GMC. Just so
we'll have spares available. Sort of like an old HS guy I know. :-)
I've been busy the past couple of days redoing the EFI wiring in the GMC.
When I installed it, I knew very little about EFI and wanted access to
almost every signal, thus the series of terminal strips around the hatch
rail. Now that I understand what's going on better and know what signals I
may want to measure or 'scope, all those obstructions to ordinary service
are no longer needed. So, I'm splicing and soldering the connections that
were on screw lug terminal strips and re-looming everything. It will be
nice to again have access to the right side of the engine from above, a
convenience I lost with the terminal strips mounted.
Ken H.
On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 8:33 PM, Robert Mueller wrote:
> Ken,
>
> Obviously if your heads develop a problem you could install a pair of
> stock heads.
>
> If you want to have stellite valve seats installed the machinist that
> worked for Jerry Potter did mine no problem.
>
> Unfortunately Jerry has passed away and it might take me a bit of research
> to find the machinist in Soddy-Daisy, TN that did the
> job.
>
> Cad Co told me that they threw out heads that needed seats. I didn't
> discuss it with MTS.
>
>
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engine Rebuilder Score Card [message #238939 is a reply to message #238925] |
Wed, 05 February 2014 22:08 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
|
Senior Member |
|
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| USAussie wrote on Wed, 05 February 2014 19:33 |
... it might take me a bit of research to find the machinist in Soddy-Daisy, TN that did the
job.
...
|
Soddy and Daisy were little more than a couple wide spots in the road. Too small to survive so they merged. Shouldn't be hard to find your guy. Doubt there are more than 2-3 decent automotive machine shops.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
[Updated on: Wed, 05 February 2014 22:09] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engine Rebuilder Score Card [message #238941 is a reply to message #238919] |
Wed, 05 February 2014 23:18 |
Kosier
Messages: 834
Registered: February 2008
Karma: 1
|
Senior Member |
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Ken,
On the Cadillac power forum everyone building a performance Cadillac
is using oversize valves without installing seat inserts. I have never
heard any discussion about problems with seat recession. If the high
RPMs are not causing problems, I wouldn't worry too much.
Since I have been gathering parts, including oversize stainless valves,
to build a set of later heads, I know I'm not too worried. LOL
Gary Kosier
77PB w/500 Cad
Newark, Oh
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Henderson
Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 7:55 PM
To: gmclist
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Engine Rebuilder Score Card
Doc Frohmader said his discussions with Cad engineers revealed that they
had a lot of trouble determining how deeply to harden the seats when that
became necessary in the early 70's. Too hard lead to cracks, IIRC. Their
final selection was to harden deeply enough to get through the warranty and
one valve grind. Doesn't bode well for my oversized valves without seat
inserts, does it?
Ken H.
On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 5:18 PM, Kerry Pinkerton wrote:
>
> Ken Henderson recently had a long email conversation with Doc Frommer, the
> Caddy master himself regarding how the factory designed the heads for
> planned wear. I don't recall the specifics but perhaps Ken will chime in.
> --
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
_______________________________________________
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Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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