Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] GMC Generators. Can they do both 110 and 220 Volt? Or do they if so wired to the coach.
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| Re: [GMCnet] GMC Generators. Can they do both 110 and 220 Volt? Or do they if so wired to the coach. [message #236264 is a reply to message #236222] |
Thu, 16 January 2014 08:26   |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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| BobDunahugh wrote on Wed, 15 January 2014 12:46 |
Thanks Scott, and Ken. I need to get the Modal # off the GENSETS that I found. I think that they put out 110/220. Using those gen parts on mine might be of value if wired into the GMC properly to deal with you shore power. Interesting thought.
Bob Dunahugh78 Royale GMCMI Member. Are you?
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Bob,
We had a very nice talk at Shawnee with a man that was closely involved with the Onan/GMC/PowerDrawer. The units in our coaches were designed to meet GM's requirements. So, our units are what is called rotating armature*. While this may sound strange to some, it is not common in AC machines** for many reasons. In actual fact, it was rare in Onan's line.
There is a very high probability of two things.
One is that the machine of the 6.5 will be rotating field and therefor easily adapted to a 120/240 configuration if it is not already.
The other is that it may not be able to bolt up to the engine you have. That would preclude mounting it in the existing space.
Personally, I think it bears some further investigation as it could be a very good modification.
* To a EE doing electric machines, the armature is the current carrying part. Moving or not is not part of the issue.
** To the people that work on motor/generators, they are all just machines. Motor or generator is an arbitrary term for which way electric/mechanical power is going and it makes little difference in most cases.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] GMC Generators. Can they do both 110 and 220 Volt? Or do they if so wired to the coach. [message #236272 is a reply to message #236264] |
Thu, 16 January 2014 09:03 |
Jim Miller
Messages: 501
Registered: March 2008
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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Matt is exactly right in the description of rotating armature. With only two slip rings on our Onan armatures it is impossible to get 120-0-120 as some have described.
In my work rebuilding Onan field assemblies I have experimented with various excitation arrangements. While I have not made any effort to get it to 240V, I have succeeded in getting 160V at zero load. I suspect that you MAY be able to get it to 230V hot-hot but then you'd need an external transformer with a center-tapped secondary to get traditional 120-0-120 needed to supply the loads in the coach. A transformer capable of 6kW at 60Hz is going to be bulky and heavy.
However, it is also possible that the magnetic flux required in the field to get 230V may not be achievable due to magnetic saturation of the poles.
I really don't see the point of trying to get 230V out of these machines - at least not in the GMC application. The power drawer is designed for 120V and the coach is designed for 120V - what is the problem?
--Jim Miller
1977 Eleganza II
1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH
On Jan 16, 2014, at 9:26 AM, Matt Colie wrote:
> We had a very nice talk at Shawnee with a man that was closely involved with the Onan/GMC/PowerDrawer. The units in our coaches were designed to meet GM's requirements. So, our units are what is called rotating armature*. While this may sound strange to some, it is not common in AC machines** for many reasons. In actual fact, it was rare in Onan's line.
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Jim Miller
1977 Eleganza II
1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH
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| Re: [GMCnet] GMC Generators. Can they do both 110 and 220 Volt? Or do they if so wired to the coach. [message #236275 is a reply to message #236272] |
Thu, 16 January 2014 09:37 |
sgltrac
Messages: 2797
Registered: April 2011
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Running a welder off of the Onan would be one Jim. That was hopefully to be an option I was planning on with the Onan. To be able to run a small inverter tig machine in remote locations.
Todd Sullivan
Sully
77 royale
Seattle
> On Jan 16, 2014, at 7:03 AM, Jim Miller <gmcnet@jcmco.com> wrote:
>
> Matt is exactly right in the description of rotating armature. With only two slip rings on our Onan armatures it is impossible to get 120-0-120 as some have described.
>
> In my work rebuilding Onan field assemblies I have experimented with various excitation arrangements. While I have not made any effort to get it to 240V, I have succeeded in getting 160V at zero load. I suspect that you MAY be able to get it to 230V hot-hot but then you'd need an external transformer with a center-tapped secondary to get traditional 120-0-120 needed to supply the loads in the coach. A transformer capable of 6kW at 60Hz is going to be bulky and heavy.
>
> However, it is also possible that the magnetic flux required in the field to get 230V may not be achievable due to magnetic saturation of the poles.
>
> I really don't see the point of trying to get 230V out of these machines - at least not in the GMC application. The power drawer is designed for 120V and the coach is designed for 120V - what is the problem?
>
> --Jim Miller
> 1977 Eleganza II
> 1977 Royale
> Hamilton, OH
>
>> On Jan 16, 2014, at 9:26 AM, Matt Colie wrote:
>>
>> We had a very nice talk at Shawnee with a man that was closely involved with the Onan/GMC/PowerDrawer. The units in our coaches were designed to meet GM's requirements. So, our units are what is called rotating armature*. While this may sound strange to some, it is not common in AC machines** for many reasons. In actual fact, it was rare in Onan's line.
>
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Sully
77 Royale basket case.
Future motorhome land speed record holder(bucket list)
Seattle, Wa.
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| Re: [GMCnet] GMC Generators. Can they do both 110 and 220 Volt? Or do they if so wired to the coach. [message #236279 is a reply to message #236264] |
Thu, 16 January 2014 10:08 |
cbryan
Messages: 451
Registered: May 2012
Location: Ennis, Texas
Karma: 3
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Nice info, Matt. So, it's definite. Just separating the L1 and L2 wires in the Onan will not work. There is a statement to that effect somewhere, and a cursory search of Mr. Fisher's excellent site (Bdub.net....GMC Motorhome Information) does not yield that nugget. Good on ya, Gene.
I'm interested in 240V because the wife doesn't like the older style air conditioner compressor hum, and I was looking at alternative air conditioners since the Carriers are no longer being made. Some of the new ones operating on 240V are very, very efficient. The best 110V one I can find is 10,000 BTU/Hr. From what I understand, the commonly used roof mounted ones are about 13,500 per hour. Thinking is that there's a 22000 btu/hr (solid state inverter) that takes about the same amount of amperage (correcting for the higher voltage) as one 13,500 one and that would be pretty nice. But, alas, the plugs on our motorhomes, while they look like a 240 Volt plug, walk like a 240 Volt plug, Quack like a 240 Volt plug, the sockets in parks with hookups give only 120 V, even the 50 amp ones. So, I would end up with an air conditioner that worked only off the Onan modified. Which can't be modified. So it goes.
Thanks again. This information and conversation is valuable. I feel like a kid in winter sitting far from the stove in a feed store just listening to the old guys converse. But not a kid any more.
Carey Bryan
Carey from Ennis, Texas
78 Royale, 500 Cadillac, Rance Baxter EFI.
[Updated on: Thu, 16 January 2014 10:20] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: [GMCnet] GMC Generators. Can they do both 110 and 220 Volt? Or do they if so wired to the coach. [message #236301 is a reply to message #236279] |
Thu, 16 January 2014 12:31 |
Mr ERFisher
Messages: 7117
Registered: August 2005
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this is note Rob received from Marc (who now lives in the US)
My brother in law changed my onan into 220/240 volts. It was noo big deal,
however I dont know how and he is on vacation. I'll have him explane to you
when he gets back. The 50 Hz is obtained by making it run a little slower.
I'll have him contact you.
Marc Hogenboom
'73 Panted Desert Diesel
Almere, the Netherlands
someone should ask marc how it is done
gene
On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 8:08 AM, Carey Bryan <chbryan@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
>
> Nice info, Matt. So, it's definite. Just separating the L1 and L2 wires
> in the Onan will not work. There is a statement to that effect somewhere,
> and a cursory search of Mr. Fisher's excellent site (Bdub.net....GMC
> Motorhome Information) does not yield that nugget. Good on ya, Gene.
>
> I'm interested in 240V because the wife doesn't like the older style air
> conditioner compressor hum, and I was looking at alternative air
> conditioners since the Carriers are no longer being made. Some of the new
> ones operating on 240V are very, very efficient. The best 110V one I can
> find is 10,000 BTU/Hr. From what I understand, the roof mounted ones are
> about 13,500 per hour. Thinking is that there's a 22000 btu/hr (solid
> state inverter) that takes about the same amount of amperage as one 13,500
> one and that would be pretty nice. But, alas, the plugs on our motorhomes,
> while they look like a 240 Volt plug, walk like a 240 Volt plug, Quack like
> a 240 Volt plug, the sockets in parks with hookups give only 120 V, even
> the 50 amp ones. So, I would end up with an air conditioner that worked
> only off the Onan modified. Which can't be modified. So it goes.
>
> Thanks again. This information and conversation is valuable. I feed like
> a kid in winter sitting far from the stove in a feed store just listening
> to the old guys converse. But not a kid any more.
>
> Carey Bryan
> --
> Carey from Ennis, Texas
> 78 Royale, 500 Cadillac, Rance Baxter EFI.
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
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| Re: [GMCnet] GMC Generators. Can they do both 110 and 220 Volt? Ordo they if so wired to the coach. [message #236317 is a reply to message #236264] |
Thu, 16 January 2014 14:59 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Matt,
That would have been Ken Broostin and he gave a presentation at Shawnee that I moderated.
I too spoke with him and he noted that Onan built 240 VAC 50HZ models as well.
I took that to mean they were like our units, HOWEVER, I MAY HAVE MISUNDERSTOOD!
I have his email address I'll drop him a line and ask him.
Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
-----Original Message-----
From: Matt Colie
BobDunahugh wrote on Wed, 15 January 2014 12:46
> Thanks Scott, and Ken. I need to get the Modal # off the GENSETS that I found. I think that they put out 110/220. Using those gen
parts on mine might be of value if wired into the GMC properly to deal with you shore power. Interesting thought.
> Bob Dunahugh78 Royale GMCMI Member. Are you?
Bob,
We had a very nice talk at Shawnee with a man that was closely involved with the Onan/GMC/PowerDrawer. The units in our coaches
were designed to meet GM's requirements. So, our units are what is called rotating armature*. While this may sound strange to
some, it is not common in AC machines** for many reasons. In actual fact, it was rare in Onan's line.
There is a very high probability of two things.
One is that the machine of the 6.5 will be rotating field and therefor easily adapted to a 120/240 configuration if it is not
already.
The other is that it may not be able to bolt up to the engine you have. That would preclude mounting it in the existing space.
Personally, I think it bears some further investigation as it could be a very good modification.
* To a EE doing electric machines, the armature is the current carrying part. Moving or not is not part of the issue.
** To the people that work on motor/generators, they are all just machines. Motor or generator is an arbitrary term for which way
electric/mechanical power is going and it makes little difference in most cases.
Matt
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Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] GMC Generators. Can they do both 110 and 220 Volt? Or do they if so wired to the coach. [message #236321 is a reply to message #236279] |
Thu, 16 January 2014 15:21 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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| cbryan wrote on Thu, 16 January 2014 11:08 |
Nice info, Matt. So, it's definite. Just separating the L1 and L2 wires in the Onan will not work. There is a statement to that effect somewhere, and a cursory search of Mr. Fisher's excellent site (Bdub.net....GMC Motorhome Information) does not yield that nugget. Good on ya, Gene.
I'm interested in 240V because the wife doesn't like the older style air conditioner compressor hum, and I was looking at alternative air conditioners since the Carriers are no longer being made. Some of the new ones operating on 240V are very, very efficient. The best 110V one I can find is 10,000 BTU/Hr. From what I understand, the commonly used roof mounted ones are about 13,500 per hour. Thinking is that there's a 22000 btu/hr (solid state inverter) that takes about the same amount of amperage (correcting for the higher voltage) as one 13,500 one and that would be pretty nice. But, alas, the plugs on our motorhomes, while they look like a 240 Volt plug, walk like a 240 Volt plug, Quack like a 240 Volt plug, the sockets in parks with hookups give only 120 V, even the 50 amp ones. So, I would end up with an air conditioner that worked only off the Onan modified. Which can't be modified. So it goes.
Thanks again. This information and conversation is valuable. I feel like a kid in winter sitting far from the stove in a feed store just listening to the old guys converse. But not a kid any more.
Carey Bryan
|
Yes Carey,
That first line is correct.
As to hum, that is not an operating voltage issue. It is a design issue. The other thing you will run into it that manufactures don't like to go over 15 amp load current for anything that plugs in. More about hum down the page....
I have never seen a portable, window or rooftop A/C unit over 15Kbtu/hr. For starters, that is about as big as can be man-carried. I don't believe you will find a 240V roof top unit. Remember that a lot of new RVs are still 30Amp only. When our coaches were built, the talk in the industry was that 30amp 120V was on its way out. Right!
Now, we have to watch out here. The 50amp plug (14-50) in a campground (or my barn) is a 240V receptacle (outlet). It is what power people call 240V-3 wire (not 3 phase- that is different). If you measure between the outside blades, you should/will find (except in our coaches) 240V.... If you measure between that outside blades and the center blade, you will/should get 120V. So, if you go into the coach's panel, there is 240 there when you are one 50amp shore power.
Now, about the hum thing. Both the fan motor and the compressor are on rubber mounts. These things go bad all the time. If you climb up on the roof with a screwdriver and peel the cover off (be careful, they get brittle), you will be able to see the mounts that I mean. If you can get them out, go to either a refrigeration parts store or Grainger and ask what they have like those - but not hardened and crushed out. The cheap and sleazy way to do the same thing is to cut some rubber (old inner tube might work, but they are so thing now) and see if you can get it in there.
If that doesn't get it, then go to an RV store and get 2 of the 14" square gaskets for A/C units. The parts guy will know what you mean. You will have to disconnect all the inside stuff - wires and vent things, but then you can move the rooftop unit aside and remove the old gasket and put the two back in. When you bolt it back down, be gentle so as not to over crush the two - now thicker -gaskets.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] GMC Generators. Can they do both 110 and 220 Volt? Or do they if so wired to the coach. [message #236323 is a reply to message #236301] |
Thu, 16 January 2014 15:28 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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| Mr ERFisher wrote on Thu, 16 January 2014 12:31 |
this is note Rob received from Marc (who now lives in the US)
My brother in law changed my onan into 220/240 volts. It was noo big deal,
however I dont know how and he is on vacation. I'll have him explane to you
when he gets back. The 50 Hz is obtained by making it run a little slower.
I'll have him contact you.
Marc Hogenboom
'73 Panted Desert Diesel
Almere, the Netherlands
someone should ask marc how it is done
gene
On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 8:08 AM, Carey Bryan <chbryan@bigfoot.com> wrote:
|
That is not what he is looking for. He wants 120/240 volts. That is a big difference. What he needs is a transformer with a center tap or an autotransformer (auto-former).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autotransformer
For 50 cycle, if wound correctly it could even run a lower frequency and input voltage if the Onan were slowed down to 1500 rpm.
Frequency is usually no big deal unless you are running synchronous motors.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] GMC Generators. Can they do both 110 and 220 Volt? Ordo they if so wired to the coach. [message #236324 is a reply to message #236317] |
Thu, 16 January 2014 15:28 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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| Robert Mueller wrote on Thu, 16 January 2014 15:59 |
Matt,
That would have been Ken Broostin and he gave a presentation at Shawnee that I moderated.
I too spoke with him and he noted that Onan built 240 VAC 50HZ models as well.
I took that to mean they were like our units, HOWEVER, I MAY HAVE MISUNDERSTOOD!
I have his email address I'll drop him a line and ask him.
Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
|
Rob,
You can it you want to, but I know for a fact that they did exist, but they are 240V and not 120/240 as that would require three sets of brushes.
There were units produced with engines similar to yours (not mine, mine is a BF not and NH) that were three wire 120/240V and sold to contractor and the military. I do not believe that any were the PowerDrawer outline, but that I am not sure about at all. I do know I saw 50Hz listed at a nominal de-rate.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] GMC Generators. Can they do both 110 and 220 Volt?Ordo they if so wired to the coach. [message #236326 is a reply to message #236324] |
Thu, 16 January 2014 15:46 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Matt,
I sent Ken the message on behalf of the people with GMC's outside the USA. We don't want 120/240V we need 240V.
Finding out that the did exist in the Power Drawer outline could be a pyrrhic victory as actually FINDING one would probably be nigh
on to impossible forty years after they were built!
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: Matt Colie
Rob,
You can it you want to, but I know for a fact that they did exist, but they are 240V and not 120/240 as that would require three
sets of brushes.
There were units produced with engines similar to yours (not mine, mine is a BF not and NH) that were three wire 120/240V and sold
to contractor and the military. I do not believe that any were the PowerDrawer outline, but that I am not sure about at all. I do
know I saw 50Hz listed at a nominal de-rate.
Matt
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] GMC Generators. Can they do both 110 and 220 Volt? Or do they if so wired to the coach. [message #236327 is a reply to message #236321] |
Thu, 16 January 2014 15:56 |
A Hamilto
Messages: 4508
Registered: April 2011
Karma: 39
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Senior Member |
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| Matt Colie wrote on Thu, 16 January 2014 15:21 |
...Now, we have to watch out here. The 50amp plug (14-50) in a campground (or my barn) is a 240V receptacle (outlet). It is what power people call 240V-3 wire (not 3 phase- that is different). If you measure between the outside blades, you should/will find (except in our coaches) 240V.... If you measure between that outside blades and the center blade, you will/should get 120V. So, if you go into the coach's panel, there is 240 there when you are one 50amp shore power. ...
|
To clarify, there is no circuit in the stock GMC motorhome that is 220 or 240 volts. If you have the cover off the breaker panel on 50A "shore" power, you can apply a voltmeter between the positive legs of both of the main breakers and get 240VAC, but that voltage never gets to an appliance, because the voltage between the hot legs and neutral is 120VAC, and that is where the appliances and fixtures get their power. While on Onan generator power, the voltage measured between the two positive legs of the main breakers is zero.
Basically, the same 120VAC is applied to both positive legs on the breaker panel when running on Onan generator power.
I can draw a picture for the electrically challenged and post it to the photo site if anyone is interested. Just let me know.
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