Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Frame Rust (Can it be patched?)
| Frame Rust [message #234326] |
Sun, 29 December 2013 08:34  |
dpottebaum
Messages: 100
Registered: January 2013
Location: Bondurant, Iowa
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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I have started a one ton front suspension conversion. All of the original suspension has been removed and I have started cleaning up/painting the frame.
While stripping the frame, I found an unpleasant surprise. On the inside of the frame on the passenger side between the cross member and the control arm bracket I found a rusted through spot. I picked at it with a punch and made a pretty good hole. Then I took a dremmel and cut about a 1.5 x 3 inch hole so I could see the extent of the corrosion. It rusted from the inside out. I need to cut a bigger hole to get to better metal. I've got pictures I can send if anyone wants to see the carnage (never had much luck posting pictures on the forum due to size constraints).
I need your advice please. Is this a repairable spot, or will I need to put a different front frame section on my coach? I hope it can just be patched, but I don't want an unsafe condition. Have any of you ever seen rust through in this area of the frame? The rest of the frame looks to be in very good condition with only the usual surface rust.
I still have a parts coach, so the front frame can be swapped, but that is a lot of work that I don't want to do unless it's necessary. Your advice is much appreciated.
Here's a link to some photos. Thanks for suggesting the GMC photo site!
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g6500-frame-repair.html
Dave Pottebaum
Bondurant, Iowa
1978 Royale
[Updated on: Sun, 29 December 2013 12:32] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: [GMCnet] Frame Rust [message #234328 is a reply to message #234326] |
Sun, 29 December 2013 09:23  |
sgltrac
Messages: 2797
Registered: April 2011
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If you have access it is repairable. Send me some pics.
Todd Sullivan
Sully
77 royale
Seattle
> On Dec 29, 2013, at 6:34 AM, Dave Pottebaum <pottebaum5@msn.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> I have started a one ton front suspension conversion. All of the original suspension has been removed and I have started cleaning up/painting the frame.
>
> While stripping the frame, I found an unpleasant surprise. On the inside of the frame on the passenger side between the cross member and the control arm bracket I found a rusted through spot. I picked at it with a punch and made a pretty good hole. Then I took a dremmel and cut about a 1.5 x 3 inch hole so I could see the extent of the corrosion. It rusted from the inside out. I need to cut a bigger hole to get to better metal. I've got pictures I can send if anyone wants to see the carnage (never had much luck posting pictures on the forum due to size constraints).
>
> I need your advice please. Is this a repairable spot, or will I need to put a different front frame section on my coach? I hope it can just be patched, but I don't want an unsafe condition. Have any of you ever seen rust through in this area of the frame? The rest of the frame looks to be in very good condition with only the usual surface rust.
>
> I still have a parts coach, so the front frame can be swapped, but that is a lot of work that I don't want to do unless it's necessary. Your advice is much appreciated.
>
>
> --
> Dave Pottebaum
> Bondurant, Iowa
> 1978 Royale
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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Sully
77 Royale basket case.
Future motorhome land speed record holder(bucket list)
Seattle, Wa.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Frame Rust [message #234332 is a reply to message #234326] |
Sun, 29 December 2013 09:30 |
scott cowden
Messages: 170
Registered: February 2004
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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John;
You have my condolences on the misfortune in finding this corrosion at this point in your modifications.
I had the EXACT same issue you describe on my early 1974 model coach. It was visible in two limited spots when I bought the coach but was assured by the previous owner that this was common on GMC's and 'not an issue.' I won't throw the guy under the bus like he probably deserves, but I found out later that this type of corrosion is not at all common on the front subframes.
It is a different type of corrosion, if yours is like mine was, in that there is little to no flaking or rust-colored deposits, It looks like an acid hole more than rusty frame stuff. If I had to guess, I'd say that this is more of an electrolysis erosion of material than simple breakdown of the steel. Bad metallurgy with dissimilar metals combined during the smelting process. Combine a bit of acid and it's battery time with the resulting erosion of material.
What I can tell you from my personal experience is that in my case, what started as a couple of minor visible perforations of the material expanded to quite a few holes over about 3-4 year period.
I investigated installing 'fish plates' to reinforce the weakened areas but a top notch welder friend of mine checked it and was concerned that any attempt to reinforce would be met by blowing holes through the weakened structure.
I drove it for year, worrying every time I hit a big pot hole that the upper control arm would rip off the frame. I couldn't let this go.
I found a replacement subframe, blasted, painted, OILED IT, and installed in my coach. Big job. I was working quite a bit at the time and had Frank Borrmann re and re the thing for me. about a $1400 job PLUS the $400 for the subframe PLUS refinishing of the part. In all, about a $2200 touch in the end.
Yours may be different than what I experienced and if you're lucky, won't expand to multiple areas of the front subframe like mine did.
I do apologize if I'm the bearer of bad news but I hope that you can benefit from me learning stuff the hard way.
Scott Cowden
'74 x-Glacier
Newmarket ON
Sent from my iPad
On 2013-12-29, at 9:34 AM, "Dave Pottebaum" <pottebaum5@msn.com> wrote:
>
>
> I have started a one ton front suspension conversion. All of the original suspension has been removed and I have started cleaning up/painting the frame.
>
> While stripping the frame, I found an unpleasant surprise. On the inside of the frame on the passenger side between the cross member and the control arm bracket I found a rusted through spot. I picked at it with a punch and made a pretty good hole. Then I took a dremmel and cut about a 1.5 x 3 inch hole so I could see the extent of the corrosion. It rusted from the inside out. I need to cut a bigger hole to get to better metal. I've got pictures I can send if anyone wants to see the carnage (never had much luck posting pictures on the forum due to size constraints).
>
> I need your advice please. Is this a repairable spot, or will I need to put a different front frame section on my coach? I hope it can just be patched, but I don't want an unsafe condition. Have any of you ever seen rust through in this area of the frame? The rest of the frame looks to be in very good condition with only the usual surface rust.
>
> I still have a parts coach, so the front frame can be swapped, but that is a lot of work that I don't want to do unless it's necessary. Your advice is much appreciated.
>
>
> --
> Dave Pottebaum
> Bondurant, Iowa
> 1978 Royale
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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| Re: [GMCnet] Frame Rust [message #234333 is a reply to message #234332] |
Sun, 29 December 2013 09:31 |
scott cowden
Messages: 170
Registered: February 2004
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Sorry, Dave, got the name wrong!
Scott
Sent from my iPad
On 2013-12-29, at 10:30 AM, "scott cowden" <scottyforsail@hotmail.com> wrote:
> John;
>
> You have my condolences on the misfortune in finding this corrosion at this point in your modifications.
>
> I had the EXACT same issue you describe on my early 1974 model coach. It was visible in two limited spots when I bought the coach but was assured by the previous owner that this was common on GMC's and 'not an issue.' I won't throw the guy under the bus like he probably deserves, but I found out later that this type of corrosion is not at all common on the front subframes.
>
> It is a different type of corrosion, if yours is like mine was, in that there is little to no flaking or rust-colored deposits, It looks like an acid hole more than rusty frame stuff. If I had to guess, I'd say that this is more of an electrolysis erosion of material than simple breakdown of the steel. Bad metallurgy with dissimilar metals combined during the smelting process. Combine a bit of acid and it's battery time with the resulting erosion of material.
>
> What I can tell you from my personal experience is that in my case, what started as a couple of minor visible perforations of the material expanded to quite a few holes over about 3-4 year period.
>
> I investigated installing 'fish plates' to reinforce the weakened areas but a top notch welder friend of mine checked it and was concerned that any attempt to reinforce would be met by blowing holes through the weakened structure.
>
> I drove it for year, worrying every time I hit a big pot hole that the upper control arm would rip off the frame. I couldn't let this go.
>
> I found a replacement subframe, blasted, painted, OILED IT, and installed in my coach. Big job. I was working quite a bit at the time and had Frank Borrmann re and re the thing for me. about a $1400 job PLUS the $400 for the subframe PLUS refinishing of the part. In all, about a $2200 touch in the end.
>
> Yours may be different than what I experienced and if you're lucky, won't expand to multiple areas of the front subframe like mine did.
>
> I do apologize if I'm the bearer of bad news but I hope that you can benefit from me learning stuff the hard way.
>
> Scott Cowden
> '74 x-Glacier
> Newmarket ON
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On 2013-12-29, at 9:34 AM, "Dave Pottebaum" <pottebaum5@msn.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> I have started a one ton front suspension conversion. All of the original suspension has been removed and I have started cleaning up/painting the frame.
>>
>> While stripping the frame, I found an unpleasant surprise. On the inside of the frame on the passenger side between the cross member and the control arm bracket I found a rusted through spot. I picked at it with a punch and made a pretty good hole. Then I took a dremmel and cut about a 1.5 x 3 inch hole so I could see the extent of the corrosion. It rusted from the inside out. I need to cut a bigger hole to get to better metal. I've got pictures I can send if anyone wants to see the carnage (never had much luck posting pictures on the forum due to size constraints).
>>
>> I need your advice please. Is this a repairable spot, or will I need to put a different front frame section on my coach? I hope it can just be patched, but I don't want an unsafe condition. Have any of you ever seen rust through in this area of the frame? The rest of the frame looks to be in very good condition with only the usual surface rust.
>>
>> I still have a parts coach, so the front frame can be swapped, but that is a lot of work that I don't want to do unless it's necessary. Your advice is much appreciated.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Dave Pottebaum
>> Bondurant, Iowa
>> 1978 Royale
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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| Re: [GMCnet] Frame Rust [message #234334 is a reply to message #234326] |
Sun, 29 December 2013 09:58 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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Maybe your battery(ies) leaked a bit over time?
If you have to, front sections swap. If it were me, I'd take it to my welder (or he to it) and see if he could heal it back to original unrusted strength without getting in the way of anything. If he could, I'd repair.
johnny
'76 23' transmode norris
braselton ga
________________________________
From: Dave Pottebaum <pottebaum5@msn.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Sunday, December 29, 2013 9:34 AM
Subject: [GMCnet] Frame Rust
I have started a one ton front suspension conversion. All of the original suspension has been removed and I have started cleaning up/painting the frame.
While stripping the frame, I found an unpleasant surprise. On the inside of the frame on the passenger side between the cross member and the control arm bracket I found a rusted through spot. I picked at it with a punch and made a pretty good hole. Then I took a dremmel and cut about a 1.5 x 3 inch hole so I could see the extent of the corrosion. It rusted from the inside out. I need to cut a bigger hole to get to better metal. I've got pictures I can send if anyone wants to see the carnage (never had much luck posting pictures on the forum due to size constraints).
I need your advice please. Is this a repairable spot, or will I need to put a different front frame section on my coach? I hope it can just be patched, but I don't want an unsafe condition. Have any of you ever seen rust through in this area of the frame? The rest of the frame looks to be in very good condition with only the usual surface rust.
I still have a parts coach, so the front frame can be swapped, but that is a lot of work that I don't want to do unless it's necessary. Your advice is much appreciated.
--
Dave Pottebaum
Bondurant, Iowa
1978 Royale
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Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] Frame Rust [message #234337 is a reply to message #234335] |
Sun, 29 December 2013 10:06 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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Geez, times change. I took a pickup to the local welding shop with the frame cracked at the shackle mount. $25 - fortuna for the time - and they put plate inside and out the frame after we jacked the crack shut. Old D-200 pickup, ran forever.
--johnny
________________________________
From: Kerry Pinkerton <Pinkertonk@MCHSI.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Sunday, December 29, 2013 11:00 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Frame Rust
Anything can be fixed. It depends on if it is bad enough that the fix costs more than the replacement subframe.
A good welder can repair/replace most anything. That said, I'd not be afraid to do frame repairs on my own coach but would even consider doing it for anyone else because of liability issues.
If it rusted from the inside out, I expect there was some 'stuff' (mud, leaves, etc) that migrated there and held moisture. We see that all the time in automotive frames/unibodies.
If you decide to fix it, I'd suggest pouring POR15 or similar inside the frame and then dragging a omnidirection spray nozzle spraying the same stuff through the frame rails. This will stop further rusting. One tip. DO NOT get POR15 on bare skin. NOTHING will take it off...NOTHING...but time...about 2 weeks. Ask me how I know this.// :lol:
--
Kerry Pinkerton
North Alabama, near Huntsville,
77 Eleganza II, "The Lady", 403CI, also a 76 Eleganza being re-bodied as an Art Deco car hauler
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Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] Frame Rust [message #234349 is a reply to message #234328] |
Sun, 29 December 2013 12:28 |
dpottebaum
Messages: 100
Registered: January 2013
Location: Bondurant, Iowa
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Sully, thanks for taking the time to respond. I have inserted a link to photos in my original post. Please let me know if you need additional shots. Thanks again.
Dave Pottebaum
Bondurant, Iowa
1978 Royale
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| Re: [GMCnet] Frame Rust [message #234351 is a reply to message #234330] |
Sun, 29 December 2013 12:30 |
dpottebaum
Messages: 100
Registered: January 2013
Location: Bondurant, Iowa
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Thanks for the GMC photo site suggestion. I have inserted a link in my original post. I feel fortunate to have so many folks to bounce ideas off of and learn from!
Dave Pottebaum
Bondurant, Iowa
1978 Royale
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| Re: Frame Rust [message #234352 is a reply to message #234326] |
Sun, 29 December 2013 12:42 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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Get an oversize piece of 1/8" plate.. probably 1/2 to 1" oversize..., tack one end to the frame then beat it until it fits the shape of the frame where the welds will be(appears to have a slight bowl shape). Do a good weld and forget about it...other than rustproofing as described in an earlier post. The repair will last longer than you will.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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| Re: [GMCnet] Frame Rust [message #234353 is a reply to message #234351] |
Sun, 29 December 2013 12:42 |
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Richard RV
Messages: 631
Registered: July 2012
Location: Full-timer for 12 years, ...
Karma: -17
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Dave,
I second the recommendation to contact Dan Stuckey. He's replaced a bunch of frames and is a hell of a welder. He'll let you know what's what.
Dan points out another common place for rust to grab hold on a GMC. Where the rear subframe diagonal members meet the side rails there're rearward facing triangular areas which catch road debris and moisture. You may want to check those areas as well.
Good luck with it.
Richard
'77 Birchaven TZE...777;
'76 Palm Beach under construction;
‘76 Edgemont waiting its turn
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| Re: Frame Rust [message #234370 is a reply to message #234326] |
Sun, 29 December 2013 15:59 |
midlf
Messages: 2212
Registered: July 2007
Location: SE Wisc. (Palmyra)
Karma: 1
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| dpottebaum wrote on Sun, 29 December 2013 08:34 |
I need your advice please. Is this a repairable spot, or will I need to put a different front frame section on my coach? I hope it can just be patched, but I don't want an unsafe condition. Have any of you ever seen rust through in this area of the frame?
|
Been there, done that. See here:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g6096-front-subframe-repair.html
I had the advantage that my frame was out but all the patches I installed could be done with the subframe installed. Some would be a PITA but could be done. A professional welder should be able to take care of this if you are not comfortable doing it yourself.
If you have any questions about what I did please ask as I have not yet added any text to those photos.
Steve Southworth
1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
Palmyra WI
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| Re: Frame Rust [message #234381 is a reply to message #234361] |
Sun, 29 December 2013 17:14 |
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Richard RV
Messages: 631
Registered: July 2012
Location: Full-timer for 12 years, ...
Karma: -17
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Senior Member |
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| noi wrote on Sun, 29 December 2013 14:08 |
Richard V.:
“Dan points out another common place for rust to grab hold on a GMC. Where the rear subframe diagonal members meet the side rails there're rearward facing triangular areas which catch road debris and moisture. You may want to check those areas as well.”
You mean this spot?
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/stuff/p52231-rear-frame.html
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Hey Carl. No, not the small diagonal knee braces that stiffen the side rails to cross member connection. I'm talking about the longer diagonal members at the upswept rear clip that run from the side rails to the rearmost cross member with the bumper supports. You can see the forward end of those members, and the gunk collecting area, in this picture:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/projects/p41953-gmc-trailer.html
And this picture shows a closeup of the area of concern just below the body isolation pad:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/projects/p41955-gmc-trailer.html
Richard
'77 Birchaven TZE...777;
'76 Palm Beach under construction;
‘76 Edgemont waiting its turn
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