Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Re: [GMCnet] More battery talk
| Re: [GMCnet] More battery talk [message #231296] |
Tue, 26 November 2013 05:49  |
Jim Bounds
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Registered: January 2004
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I would say an important issue is to select your 12 volt source based on your need. Â Living area batteries should be designed for long low continuous drain, especially uding inverters. Â The bigger the inverter the more robust the deep cycle capacity and the stronger you charging capability. Â The stronger the battery the stronger the power supply. Â Bigger cables too. Â But if you don't need all that much having it is a wastte but also will not work well for you. Â Too dmall a charger the battery may nevrr charge w ell. Â Too large a charger the battery could be damaged. Â Also, design your circuit for energy conservation. Â If you do not need a drain, be able to turn it off. Â Also connect it all where others can operate it, why make things so complicated only you can figure it out. Â Uuse proper cables and connections, rig it today and it will screw up tomorrow. Â Have a way to shut off all power fast, electrically ignited fires can happen. Â Also storage without a current drain will always keep your batteries ready to go. Â Other things but this is a good start,
Jim Bounds
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-------- Original message --------
From: Bob de Kruyff <NEXT2POOL@AOL.COM>
Date: 11/25/2013 11:55 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: [GMCnet] More battery talk
I thought I would start a new thread on this, but batteries obviously is an interesting topic. I understand the deep cycle vs cranking battery logic (maybe not) but for someone who uses inverters regularly on the house bank, isn't that type of use approaching what a cranking battery is designed for?
--
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] More battery talk [message #231339 is a reply to message #231296] |
Tue, 26 November 2013 11:32  |
Bob de Kruyff
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""I would say an important issue is to select your 12 volt source based on your need. Â Living area batteries should be designed for long low continuous drain, especially uding inverters""
What I'm starting to wonder is whether a deep discharge battery is really the best one to use if you use the invertor a lot. It seems to me that an invertor will draw lots of amps for short periods of time--to the point that it is more like cranking an engine.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] More battery talk [message #231348 is a reply to message #231339] |
Tue, 26 November 2013 13:21 |
Carl S.
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Location: Tucson, AZ.
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| Bob de Kruyff wrote on Tue, 26 November 2013 10:32 |
""I would say an important issue is to select your 12 volt source based on your need. Â Living area batteries should be designed for long low continuous drain, especially using inverters""
What I'm starting to wonder is whether a deep discharge battery is really the best one to use if you use the inverter a lot. It seems to me that an inverter will draw lots of amps for short periods of time--to the point that it is more like cranking an engine.
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That makes sense, Bob. An 85 amp load from running a microwave through an inverter for a minute or two, would seem to be more of the type of load you would expect from a starting battery.
Carl Stouffer
'75 ex Palm Beach
Tucson, AZ.
Chuck Aulgur Reaction Arm Disc Brakes, Quadrabags, 3.70 LSD final drive, Lenzi knuckles/hubs, Dodge Truck 16" X 8" front wheels, Rear American Eagles, Solar battery charging. GMCSJ and GMCMI member
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| Re: [GMCnet] More battery talk [message #231350 is a reply to message #231296] |
Tue, 26 November 2013 13:25 |
Craig Lechowicz
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Location: Waterford, MI
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Bob,
I'm not sure how much everyone uses their inverters at large loads. In my case, it's mostly the fridge, and a little TV or computer. My goal is to run the microwave for, oh, say 4 minutes, just long enough to make a decent BLT. I think I can do that already, but I haven't tried it. And if you round, a 1,000 watt microwave load is about 100 amps, or split across two battery banks only 50 amps each. I'm thinking that's not that far away from 2 fat guys like me going uphill in a golf cart.
Craig Lechowicz
'77 Kingsley, Waterford, MI
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| Re: [GMCnet] More battery talk [message #231369 is a reply to message #231350] |
Tue, 26 November 2013 15:17 |
Bob de Kruyff
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Location: Chandler, AZ
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| Craig Lechowicz wrote on Tue, 26 November 2013 12:25 |
Bob,
I'm not sure how much everyone uses their inverters at large loads. In my case, it's mostly the fridge, and a little TV or computer. My goal is to run the microwave for, oh, say 4 minutes, just long enough to make a decent BLT. I think I can do that already, but I haven't tried it. And if you round, a 1,000 watt microwave load is about 100 amps, or split across two battery banks only 50 amps each. I'm thinking that's not that far away from 2 fat guys like me going uphill in a golf cart.
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I know there are marine batteries that are designed for "hybid" usage such as what I'm talking about. Of course anything "Marine" means marine money. I'm just curious because I think some of us are using these batteries in a different environment than what was used years ago. In the back of my head, I'm thinking that cranking batteries could work well for some of us.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] More battery talk [message #231375 is a reply to message #231369] |
Tue, 26 November 2013 15:34 |
k2gkk
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A friend of mine had what was probably a "standard" (whatever that meant) battery for his fifth-wheel trailer.
Overnight temperatures mandated use of his furnace. Somewhere before dawn, the battery crapped out and coach went cold! His wife was NOT amused.
He didn't even have power to run the power jack to hook back up. Luckily, his umbilical cord from trailer to truck was long enough to hook up and charge his coach battery enough to get hooked up to go home.
I have read that proper "deep cycle" batteries have much thicker plates and more electrolye (diluted acid) and can provide more current (Amps) for longer periods of time and can more easily withstand deeper discharges.
I have also read that some batteries advertised as "dual purpose" are much closer to starting battery status than deep cycle. Buyer beware.
The big 6V batteries from Sam's Club or Costco (don't have one in Oklahoma) will do you a much better job for house battery.
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> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> From: NEXT2POOL@AOL.COM
> Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2013 15:17:40 -0600
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] More battery talk
>
> Craig Lechowicz wrote on Tue, 26 November 2013 12:25
> >
> > Bob,
> > I'm not sure how much everyone uses their inverters at large loads. In my case, it's mostly the fridge, and a little TV or computer. My goal is to run the microwave for, oh, say 4 minutes, just long enough to make a decent BLT. I think I can do that already, but I haven't tried it. And if you round, a 1,000 watt microwave load is about 100 amps, or split across two battery banks only 50 amps each. I'm thinking that's not that far away from 2 fat guys like me going uphill in a golf cart.
>
>
> I know there are marine batteries that are designed for "hybid" usage such as what I'm talking about. Of course anything "Marine" means marine money. I'm just curious because I think some of us are using these batteries in a different environment than what was used years ago. In the back of my head, I'm thinking that cranking batteries could work well for some of us.
> --
> Bob de Kruyff
> 78 Eleganza
> Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] More battery talk [message #231445 is a reply to message #231395] |
Tue, 26 November 2013 20:18 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
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Location: Chandler, AZ
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| Matt Colie wrote on Tue, 26 November 2013 15:36 |
| Bob de Kruyff wrote on Tue, 26 November 2013 12:32 |
What I'm starting to wonder is whether a deep discharge battery is really the best one to use if you use the invertor a lot. It seems to me that an invertor will draw lots of amps for short periods of time--to the point that it is more like cranking an engine.
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Bob,
The cranking current for a cold 455 is about 600Amps, warm they are closer to 450. The microwave is probably 120.... Still not vary close to cranking load. Stay with deep cycle for the house bank.
Matt
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I'm surprised the starter pulls that much juice. On that basis, I get it 
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] More battery talk [message #231446 is a reply to message #231375] |
Tue, 26 November 2013 20:29 |
roy1
Messages: 2126
Registered: July 2004
Location: Minden nevada
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Don't know if anyone noticed but the cost of golf cart batteries at Costco went from around $87 to $125 in the past few months.
Roy Keen
Minden,NV
76 X Glenbrook
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| Re: [GMCnet] More battery talk [message #231449 is a reply to message #231446] |
Tue, 26 November 2013 20:49 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
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We ain't seen nuthin' yet!
Did you not see the recent announcement that the last lead smelter in the
US has now closed, thanks to EPA regs?
Anything containing lead, such as batteries and bullets, is bound to become
outrageously expensive -- or unavailable.
Ken H.
On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 9:29 PM, <roy@gmcnet.org> wrote:
>
>
> Don't know if anyone noticed but the cost of golf cart batteries at Costco
> went from around $87 to $125 in the past few months.
> --
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] More battery talk [message #231450 is a reply to message #231449] |
Tue, 26 November 2013 20:59 |
roy1
Messages: 2126
Registered: July 2004
Location: Minden nevada
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| Ken Henderson wrote on Tue, 26 November 2013 18:49 |
We ain't seen nuthin' yet!
Did you not see the recent announcement that the last lead smelter in the
US has now closed, thanks to EPA regs?
Anything containing lead, such as batteries and bullets, is bound to become
outrageously expensive -- or unavailable.
Ken H.
On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 9:29 PM, <roy@gmcnet.org> wrote:
>
>
> Don't know if anyone noticed but the cost of golf cart batteries at Costco
> went from around $87 to $125 in the past few months.
> --
>
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What's next reconditioned batteries like in days of old?
Roy Keen
Minden,NV
76 X Glenbrook
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| Re: [GMCnet] More battery talk [message #231456 is a reply to message #231369] |
Tue, 26 November 2013 21:25 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
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Location: Hebron, Indiana
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| Bob de Kruyff wrote on Tue, 26 November 2013 15:17 |
| Craig Lechowicz wrote on Tue, 26 November 2013 12:25 |
Bob,
I'm not sure how much everyone uses their inverters at large loads. In my case, it's mostly the fridge, and a little TV or computer. My goal is to run the microwave for, oh, say 4 minutes, just long enough to make a decent BLT. I think I can do that already, but I haven't tried it. And if you round, a 1,000 watt microwave load is about 100 amps, or split across two battery banks only 50 amps each. I'm thinking that's not that far away from 2 fat guys like me going uphill in a golf cart.
|
I know there are marine batteries that are designed for "hybid" usage such as what I'm talking about. Of course anything "Marine" means marine money. I'm just curious because I think some of us are using these batteries in a different environment than what was used years ago. In the back of my head, I'm thinking that cranking batteries could work well for some of us.
|
I have been thinking about your question for a day or so. I was trying to justify why a starting battery would be a better solution. I haven't come up with a reason to use a starting battery. Starting batteries are designed to give high current for a very short time. They have very thin plates designed for maximum surface area to provide short term high current.
What I am struggling with is does a microwave drawing 100 amps for 2 to 10 minutes qualify as high current short term 100 100 is probably only 20% of the current draw of an engine starter. 2 to 10 minutes of load running a microwave is probably 12 to 60 times the duration of a normal starter operation. Those comparisons being made I believe I would stay with deep cycle batteries for that kind of load. Also in total amp hours, a deep cycle battery will store more energy that an engine starting battery.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] More battery talk [message #231465 is a reply to message #231463] |
Tue, 26 November 2013 21:57 |
k2gkk
Messages: 4452
Registered: November 2009
Karma: -8
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I paid around $90 at Sam's a couple of years back.
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~~ ~ D C "Mac" Macdonald ~ ~~
~ ~ Amateur Radio - K2GKK ~ ~
~~ k2gkk @ hotmail dot com ~~
~ ~ USAF and FAA, Retired ~ ~
~ ~ ~ Oklahoma City, OK ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ ~ "The Money Pit" ~ ~ ~~
~ ~ ~ ex-Palm Beach, 76 ~ ~ ~
~~ k2gkk + hotmail dot com ~~
~ www.gmcmhphotos.com/okclb ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
> From: ljdavick@comcast.net
> Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2013 19:51:07 -0800
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] More battery talk
>
> I just saw them in the Fremont Costco for $90 and thought that was kind of high.
>
> Larry Davick
> A Mystery Machine
> 1976(ish) Palm Beach
> Fremont, CA
>
> > On Nov 26, 2013, at 6:29 PM, roy@gmcnet.org wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Don't know if anyone noticed but the cost of golf cart batteries at Costco went from around $87 to $125 in the past few months.
> > --
> > Roy Keen
> > Minden,NV
> > 76 X Glenbrook
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| Re: [GMCnet] More battery talk [message #231483 is a reply to message #231481] |
Wed, 27 November 2013 06:19 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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I saw the article a few weeks ago about the EPA shutting down the last lead plant in Missouri. I guess we will have to start buying batteries and bullets from China or maybe we can scrounge the lead out of the Chinese manufactured dog food.
| Ken Henderson wrote on Wed, 27 November 2013 05:19 |
I'm sure that's what we're getting right now in the way of recycled lead.
Ken H.
On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 9:59 PM, <roy@gmcnet.org> wrote:
>
> What's next reconditioned batteries like in days of old?
>
>
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Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] More battery talk [message #231491 is a reply to message #231296] |
Wed, 27 November 2013 08:18 |
Chris Tyler
Messages: 458
Registered: September 2013
Location: Odessa FL
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Maybe I'm missing something...Are we discussing a situation where the genset has been removed or is inop? Why not just fire up the troll for a few minutes?
76 Glenbrook
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| Re: [GMCnet] More battery talk [message #231506 is a reply to message #231456] |
Wed, 27 November 2013 09:37 |
 |
Matt Colie
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| Ken Burton wrote on Tue, 26 November 2013 22:25 |
<snip>
What I am struggling with is does a microwave drawing 100 amps for 2 to 10 minutes qualify as high current short term 100 100 is probably only 20% of the current draw of an engine starter. 2 to 10 minutes of load running a microwave is probably 12 to 60 times the duration of a normal starter operation. Those comparisons being made I believe I would stay with deep cycle batteries for that kind of load. Also in total amp hours, a deep cycle battery will store more energy that an engine starting battery.
|
| Chris Tyler wrote on Wed, 27 November 2013 9:18 |
Maybe I'm missing something...Are we discussing a situation where the genset has been removed or is inop? Why not just fire up the troll for a few minutes?
|
Ken and Chris (in that order)
It has been my experience (backed by some recording instruments) that GC2 handle ~100amp loads for several minutes just fine. The terminal will actually pull down somewhat but as the electrolyte circulates, that stack will recover slowly after the load ceases. And they will do this all season long and not display any degradation.
I am not sure if your statement about a real deep cycle design will store more energy is actually correct, but what I know for a fact and what really does matter is that if a deep cycle is depleted to less than that magical 50% mark, it will usually shrug it off and little if any degradation of capacity will be noted. Don't do that with a high current rated cranking battery. It that case there will be immediate and measurable loss of capacity. So, even though a real deep cycle may not actually store more energy, it will be able to deliver more energy without damage.
Chris,
There is nothing good that happens when an engine is cold started. If you want to keep an engine a long time (lots of hours), avoid cold starts and when you do run it, then run it long enough to get all the fluids to full temperature. This is particularly important in an air cooled engine as combustion by-products (one of which will be water) will accumulate in the lube oil and can turn acid corrode any metal it can reach.
The only reason we don't (yet) have an inverter to run the microwave is that I have not been able to afford the one I really want. I may break down one of these days and get a CCV to use for that service, but I am told that most microwaves do not like modified square wave inverters. (I have look at the output of those and refuse to call it any kind of sine.)
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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