| Transmission kick Down [message #230977] |
Sun, 24 November 2013 03:45  |
cadelec
Messages: 303
Registered: September 2011
Location: Brisbane Australia
Karma: 1
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Hi all
I am just thinking while my GMC is on the water coming down under.
when i was in NC i went over rout 129 Tail of the dragon this was a route had a lot of twists and turns and i went over this in 2nd gear for most of the way. what i had problems with was when changing down and up i would sometimes travel too far and miss feeling the detents through the column shifter. i assume the trans has an electric kick down switch for when overtaking. any thoughts on the idea of inserting a separate switch to operate the kickdown.
could this cause damage to the trans.
as i have to convert to right hand drive is there an all electric shifter that i could install instead of having to make an extra long cable
Trevor
Brisbane Australia
Siesta Koala 76 Edgemont (old Bobby Moores)
71 Cadillac Eldo Convert
58 Cadillac Eldorado Brougham Project
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| Re: Transmission kick Down [message #230978 is a reply to message #230977] |
Sun, 24 November 2013 04:00  |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
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What you probably have is a kick down switch that is out of adjustment. I have fixed many of them on GMCs. The switch is located on the top of the lever that has the gas pedal mounted on it. These get bent over the years frompeople pressingtoo hard on the petal. Simply reach down and pull up on the lever bending it back into it's normal original place.
Manny does not like shifting down this way. He said it was hard on the 2nd gear clutch. He would rather you pull the trans down to 2nd using the gear shift lever. He also told me at one time he was having a hard time sourcing the solenoid that does that shifting. If you have a Manny rebuilt transmission you may not have the ability to electrically downshift.
Look for the switch on the gas pedal lever and adjust it first.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: Transmission kick Down [message #230980 is a reply to message #230978] |
Sun, 24 November 2013 04:29 |
cadelec
Messages: 303
Registered: September 2011
Location: Brisbane Australia
Karma: 1
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ken
what i am talking about is manually changing gears while driving . after the dramas we had with the transmission in Arkansas i was not going to let it change up and down by itself when going through those mountains. I wanted to select 2nd gear and keep it there manually. i find that some times it is too easy to pull down from drive and go into low and when going from 2nd to drive it is possible to end up in neutral. I also would like to make this easy and definite so when Catherine drives she can change gears confidently
one other solution i have thought of is a B&M Z Gate shifter. At this stage i am just trying to get ideas with a Right Hand Drive conversion it is a chance to do somethings that you otherwise might not do.
Trevor
Brisbane Australia
Siesta Koala 76 Edgemont (old Bobby Moores)
71 Cadillac Eldo Convert
58 Cadillac Eldorado Brougham Project
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| Re: Transmission kick Down [message #230983 is a reply to message #230980] |
Sun, 24 November 2013 04:48 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
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You want a firm detent or stop in each gear position. I'm trying to think on how to do that with a column shift.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: Transmission kick Down [message #230985 is a reply to message #230983] |
Sun, 24 November 2013 04:58 |
cadelec
Messages: 303
Registered: September 2011
Location: Brisbane Australia
Karma: 1
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| Ken Burton wrote on Sun, 24 November 2013 04:48 |
You want a firm detent or stop in each gear position. I'm trying to think on how to do that with a column shift.
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the reason i am thinking outside of the square is that as i am converting to right hand drive this might kill 2 birds with one stone
i just found this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZoliNBaytU]
Trevor
Brisbane Australia
Siesta Koala 76 Edgemont (old Bobby Moores)
71 Cadillac Eldo Convert
58 Cadillac Eldorado Brougham Project
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| Re: Transmission kick Down [message #230987 is a reply to message #230985] |
Sun, 24 November 2013 05:04 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
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That is a neat idea. I can see how it would work but I could not engineer one.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: Transmission kick Down [message #230988 is a reply to message #230987] |
Sun, 24 November 2013 05:06 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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| Ken Burton wrote on Sun, 24 November 2013 05:04 |
That is a neat idea. I can see how it would work but I could not engineer one.
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In the late 1950s Plymouth had a push button automatic transmission gear selector. I wonder how that worked.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: Transmission kick Down [message #230989 is a reply to message #230988] |
Sun, 24 November 2013 05:12 |
cadelec
Messages: 303
Registered: September 2011
Location: Brisbane Australia
Karma: 1
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[quote title=Ken Burton wrote on Sun, 24 November 2013 05:06]| Ken Burton wrote on Sun, 24 November 2013 05:04 |
That is a neat idea. I can see how it would work but I could not engineer one.
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i have just emailed them to see if they have a basic setup. these retail for around 650 dollars with an electronic paddle shifter to suit a turbo 400. so i assume it should work with our trans.
it may be easier than trying to manufacture linkages or cables in the RHD conversion
Trevor
Brisbane Australia
Siesta Koala 76 Edgemont (old Bobby Moores)
71 Cadillac Eldo Convert
58 Cadillac Eldorado Brougham Project
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| Re: Transmission kick Down [message #230994 is a reply to message #230988] |
Sun, 24 November 2013 07:21 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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| Ken Burton wrote on Sun, 24 November 2013 05:06 |
...
In the late 1950s Plymouth had a push button automatic transmission gear selector. I wonder how that worked.
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Mopar used a pushbutton shifter from 55 through 64. A fairly complicated pushbutton arrangement moved a push/pull cable that ended up at the tranny. Inside the tranny (Torqueflight) the cable hooked to a rod that did all the internal linkage. Pretty simple inside the tranny.
In 65, the Feds decided that PRNDL (Park, Reverse, Neutral, Drive, Low) had to be standard, and MOPAR decided to drop the pushbutton selector. The 65 Torqueflight still used the same tranny setup but the dash (column) linkage was changed for the new standard. In 66, the tranny was modified for the more traditional linkage similar to the Turbo400.
As an aside, the 66 aluminum torqueflight is the ONLY model that will allow you to use a 440 big block with a pushbutton shifter. I have a 57 Imperial cruiser that will never be finished but the original 392 Hemi is gone and a 440 with the 66 aluminum torqueflight is the new drivetrain.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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| Re: Transmission kick Down [message #230995 is a reply to message #230977] |
Sun, 24 November 2013 07:28 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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What about a standard floor mounted auto shifter like this:
http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/mediumlarge/BMM-80776_SI_ml.jpg
They use a standard Morse Style, Eyelet/Threaded End cable that is available in virtually any length. You could mount the shifter on the side below the window or in the center on the dash, modifying the appearance to suit your taste. The mechanism is all you need. These are available for any tranny, Ford, GM, etc, and are cheap.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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| Re: Transmission kick Down [message #230998 is a reply to message #230977] |
Sun, 24 November 2013 08:13 |
An87ttype
Messages: 157
Registered: September 2012
Karma: 0
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I have the same problem with the column. It does not have a positive feel to the shifter. I find it very easy to overshift it into neutral from second. I think the question might be if you can just run the wires from the kick down switch to a switch on the dash somewhere to shift it in to second. Would this be a problem to do in the long term. I think it would work otherwise. I guess the right way would be to fix the linkage, but a switch would be a lot easier to do. Any thoughts on the long term effect of electrically holding the trans in second?
1975 Eleganza II
Hudson Valley NY
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| Re: [GMCnet] Transmission kick Down [message #230999 is a reply to message #230978] |
Sun, 24 November 2013 08:28 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Trevor,
That remote shifter would probably be the easiest way for you to adapt to
RH drive, but look at the cost:
http://www.jegs.com/p/Altronics/Altronics-SHIFT-Electric-Push-Button-Shifter-System/1979277/10002/-1
I second Ken B.'s comment about Manny opposing the use of "passing gear"
(electrical downshift) as opposed to manual selection. This week, we had
several discussions of similar topics. Such as the use of lower gears for
downgrade braking.
Manny stoutly maintains that the load on the clutches is worse when using
engine braking situation than when climbing the same grade at the same
speed in the same gear. Seems the cut of the gears is the problem. He's
also opposed to the use of DFCO (Decelleration Fuel Cut Off), which many of
us use with our EFI/EBL. His contention is that the additional load from
the dead engine compounds the problem above. Similarly, a low engine idle
speed, even without DFCO, increases the engine load. Especially now that
Manny Brakes are available, he contends we should depend on wheel brakes,
NOT engine braking -- brake pads being cheaper than transmission overhauls.
Ken H.
On Sun, Nov 24, 2013 at 5:00 AM, Ken Burton <n9cv@comcast.net> wrote:
> ...
Manny does not like shifting down this way. He said it was hard on the 2nd
> gear clutch. He would rather you pull the trans down to 2nd using the gear
> shift lever.
...
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www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: Transmission kick Down [message #231000 is a reply to message #230980] |
Sun, 24 November 2013 08:31 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
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| cadelec wrote on Sun, 24 November 2013 03:29 |
ken
what i am talking about is manually changing gears while driving . after the dramas we had with the transmission in Arkansas i was not going to let it change up and down by itself when going through those mountains. I wanted to select 2nd gear and keep it there manually. i find that some times it is too easy to pull down from drive and go into low and when going from 2nd to drive it is possible to end up in neutral. I also would like to make this easy and definite so when Catherine drives she can change gears confidently
one other solution i have thought of is a B&M Z Gate shifter. At this stage i am just trying to get ideas with a Right Hand Drive conversion it is a chance to do somethings that you otherwise might not do.
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You could do the switch approach but when it kicks down that way it is not quite the same as downshifting. I believe that manually downshifting it into second engages an additional clutch (or is it a higher line pressure)that doesn't happen with the electrical kickdown.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: Transmission kick Down [message #231001 is a reply to message #230994] |
Sun, 24 November 2013 08:35 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
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""Mopar used a pushbutton shifter from 55 through 64. A fairly complicated pushbutton arrangement moved a push/pull cable that ended up at the tranny. Inside the tranny (Torqueflight) the cable hooked to a rod that did all the internal linkage. Pretty simple inside the tranny.""
They also used pushbuttons on the 2 spd Powerflite. Mercury and of course the Edsel used pushbuttons as well but I don't know how they were mechanized (they may have been vacuum operated)
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: Transmission kick Down [message #231003 is a reply to message #230998] |
Sun, 24 November 2013 08:41 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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| An87ttype wrote on Sun, 24 November 2013 07:13 |
I have the same problem with the column. It does not have a positive feel to the shifter. I find it very easy to overshift it into neutral from second. I think the question might be if you can just run the wires from the kick down switch to a switch on the dash somewhere to shift it in to second. Would this be a problem to do in the long term. I think it would work otherwise. I guess the right way would be to fix the linkage, but a switch would be a lot easier to do. Any thoughts on the long term effect of electrically holding the trans in second?
|
This has come up a few times in the past and as I mentioned in a previous post, manually downshifting is not quite the same as electrically downshifting when it comes to how it is actually mechanized internally. I think the shop manual describes this but it's a tough read. I'm sure Manny may chime in.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: Transmission kick Down [message #231004 is a reply to message #230977] |
Sun, 24 November 2013 08:42 |
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SeanKidd
Messages: 747
Registered: June 2012
Location: Northern Neck Virginia
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Trevor,
I am so jealous you got to drive the Tail of the Dragon, what final drive do you have? The MINI cooper club has a week long event there every spring, usually 300-400 MINIs show up....I have yet to attend, but I have watched many videos.
The Dragon is one of the top 10 driving roads in the country...318 curves in 11 miles. It is well known with bikers and sports car enthusiasts.
Sean and Stephanie
73 Ex-CanyonLands 26' #317 "Oliver"
Hubler 1-Ton, Quad-Bags, Rear Disc, Reaction Arms, P.Huber TBs, 3.70:1 LSD Honda 6500 inverter gen.
Colonial Travelers
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| Re: Transmission kick Down [message #231005 is a reply to message #230980] |
Sun, 24 November 2013 08:43 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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| cadelec wrote on Sun, 24 November 2013 03:29 |
ken
what i am talking about is manually changing gears while driving . after the dramas we had with the transmission in Arkansas i was not going to let it change up and down by itself when going through those mountains. I wanted to select 2nd gear and keep it there manually. i find that some times it is too easy to pull down from drive and go into low and when going from 2nd to drive it is possible to end up in neutral. I also would like to make this easy and definite so when Catherine drives she can change gears confidently
one other solution i have thought of is a B&M Z Gate shifter. At this stage i am just trying to get ideas with a Right Hand Drive conversion it is a chance to do somethings that you otherwise might not do.
|
There's a "comb" inside the transmission that provides the detent feel. It's possible that between a sticky shift cable and a worn comb that the detent feel is diminished over time.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] Transmission kick Down [message #231009 is a reply to message #231005] |
Sun, 24 November 2013 08:58 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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While I suspect that wear in the column and a sticky cable are most of your
problem, it would be simple to adjust the tension on the "comb" Bob
describes. The detents are the result of a roller running into depressions
on that "comb". The roller is mounted at the end of a leaf spring which is
held to the transmission case by a single 1/4"-20 cap screw. With the
transmission pan removed, it's trivially simple to remove that screw and
bend the spring to provide more pressure on the roller. Whether one could
make a perceptible difference in the force required at the shift lever is
an open question.
Ken H.
On Sun, Nov 24, 2013 at 9:43 AM, Bob de Kruyff <NEXT2POOL@aol.com> wrote:
>
> There's a "comb" inside the transmission that provides the detent feel.
> It's possible that between a sticky shift cable and a worn comb that the
> detent feel is diminished over time.
> --
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: Transmission kick Down [message #231010 is a reply to message #231004] |
Sun, 24 November 2013 09:09 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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| SeanKidd wrote on Sun, 24 November 2013 08:42 |
Trevor,
I am so jealous you got to drive the Tail of the Dragon, what final drive do you have? The MINI cooper club has a week long event there every spring, usually 300-400 MINIs show up....I have yet to attend, but I have watched many videos.
The Dragon is one of the top 10 driving roads in the country...318 curves in 11 miles. It is well known with bikers and sports car enthusiasts.
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I drove it a few years back after attending a Bean Station work rally. It was a lot of fun. I have often thought that I would like to do it again.
Maybe we ought to organize something after Bean Station.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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