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| Now the rest of the story - about alternators [message #228683] |
Wed, 06 November 2013 17:48  |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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If you get an alternator serviced or buy parts on your own, make sure that the regulator is one that is a replacement for the Delco number 1116387. That number had been discontinued for years, but replacements from Delco and others are out there.
Some of you may remember that I got my alternator serviced in Baton Rouge on the way to Dothan. The regulator went bad. This neat guy in Baton Rouge broke it down (I had taken it out in his driveway), checked the original regulator and while it sort of worked (then) it got real hot real fast. While he was looking at that regulator, he mumbled something about it being one for external excitation. It now occurs to me that he might have meant external sensing. The one he put in was not.
I put it back in and got 13.4 in the system right away and it built to 13.6. (Beats nothing by a bunch.) That was the best we ever saw for the rest of the summer. In case you haven't grabbed that, you can charge the house bank from half gone to full charge with 13.6, but it will take you DAYS to do in. It will not happen in a normal driving day of something like 8 hours. This just one reason why a PD92xx works so well.
Well, I put in the Chinese part that I got somewhere this afternoon, and now it fires up at 14.4. Much the betterer. We put more hours on the APU this season than we had in the three prior and most of that was just to charge the house bank. I'm looking to not do that again this next season.
Speaking of regulators, I have an old three battery coach. During a hot weekend of dry camping, the APU battery got so depleted that it would not crank the monster. So, I screwed in the jumper I put in the system just for such eventualities and got the APU battery back up and just kept an eye on it from then on. I finally got to do the complete and through diagnostic on it yesterday. That expensive little Prestolite rectifier/regulator had gone out, not completely, but not enough left to do any good. It took some persistence to catch it failing... Fortunately, there was one on the other BF (4kW Onan) I was given.
Good news, that one is good.
Bad news, it is the same part (exactly) that I have failed on two out of three Kohler engine small tractors.
I can buy a replacement by part number for 109$us.
I can buy something that looks like the old one for 45+$ on E-bay.
I can buy something that does the same thing but is a very different package for 20$.
Guess which I'm going to do.
Those were the two things that I really I wanted to get done before I brought Chaumière in for the winter's work.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: Now the rest of the story - about alternators [message #228694 is a reply to message #228683] |
Wed, 06 November 2013 18:56  |
rcjordan
Messages: 1913
Registered: October 2012
Location: Elizabeth City, North Car...
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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>I can buy a replacement by part number for 109$us.
>I can buy something that looks like the old one for 45+$ on E-bay.
>I can buy something that does the same thing but is a very different package for 20$.
>Guess which I'm going to do.
Umm, arbitrage?
SOLD 77 Royale Coachmen Side Dry Bath
76 Birchaven Coachmen Side Wet Bath
76 Eleganza
Elizabeth City, NC
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| Re: Now the rest of the story - about alternators [message #228712 is a reply to message #228683] |
Wed, 06 November 2013 20:22 |
cbryan
Messages: 451
Registered: May 2012
Location: Ennis, Texas
Karma: 3
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Senior Member |
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The $20 one. Because it might last much longer and we all like doing things for the last time. The others have had their chance to be reliable. No R&D value in replacing the part. Again.
Carey from Ennis, Texas
78 Royale, 500 Cadillac, Rance Baxter EFI.
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| Re: Now the rest of the story - about alternators [message #228720 is a reply to message #228683] |
Wed, 06 November 2013 21:05 |
bobby5832708
Messages: 237
Registered: November 2006
Location: Winter Springs FL
Karma: 3
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Senior Member |
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Matt,
The regulator that did 13.6 volts, is that at-the-battery voltage (after the isolator voltage drop) or at-the-alternator-output-terminal voltage?
Reason I'm asking is I've wanted to lower my charging system voltage from the current 14.2 down to the mid-13's and this may just be what I've been looking for. I don't use a diode-type isolator, I've got a homemade combiner that parallels the batteries when the 455 is running so I don't need to compensate for the .7 volt drop across the isolator with remote sensing.
Bob Heller
2017 Winnebago 29VE
Winter Springs FL
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| Re: Now the rest of the story - about alternators [message #228751 is a reply to message #228720] |
Thu, 07 November 2013 09:03 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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| bobby5832708 wrote on Wed, 06 November 2013 22:05 |
Matt,
The regulator that did 13.6 volts, is that at-the-battery voltage (after the isolator voltage drop) or at-the-alternator-output-terminal voltage?
Reason I'm asking is I've wanted to lower my charging system voltage from the current 14.2 down to the mid-13's and this may just be what I've been looking for. I don't use a diode-type isolator, I've got a homemade combiner that parallels the batteries when the 455 is running so I don't need to compensate for the .7 volt drop across the isolator with remote sensing.
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Bob,
The automotive standard for the system voltage of a running vehicle is 14.5V +/- 0.25V. (An SAE specification, but I do not recall the number.) This is the value used to establish lamp life and power consumption of accessory equipment. It will cause so out some gassing of 1.260/1.270sg LA batteries, but that is unavoidable if one wants to get back to full density in less than a day.
There are external regulators available (not inexpensive) that I have used in very special marine applications that have an a programable (adjustable) set point. Some of those are single stage. The low volume of demand makes then relatively costly.
With the wrong regulator, the alternator output was ~14.7. The whole reason (as Gene noted) for the external sense is to compensate for the diode drop and line loss. This regulator was not doing that so we could not charge the house bank to full with the main engine alternator with any amount of engine time.
It is not clear what you think you will gain by dropping the reducing the system voltage to ~13.5 V. If you look at the data, you will find that the recharge time from 50% to full density for a terminal voltage of 13.5 is about at 30+ hours. I now have personal (very personal) experience that this is pretty much accurate.
We need to talk about what it is you want to accomplish, but I bet we can either come up with a cost effective means or talk you out of it all together.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: Now the rest of the story - about alternators [message #229592 is a reply to message #228683] |
Tue, 12 November 2013 19:26 |
bobby5832708
Messages: 237
Registered: November 2006
Location: Winter Springs FL
Karma: 3
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Senior Member |
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Matt,
My thinking is that since I start with fully charged batteries because the GMC is almost always plugged in I really don't need to hold the running voltage at 14.4 to make sure they are charged, that just leads to excessive gassing and battery heat, especially since I am always driving in Florida where it's usually warm and many times take trips of a few hours at a time in that warm weather. Ideally I would like to make the alt output be about 13.8 but I don't want to spend any appreciable amount of money to do this. A $10 voltage regulator I might consider but no more than that.
I can understand the 14.4 volts on a car where the alternator is the only method of charging the battery but since my GMC batteries are kept 'topped up' by the PD converter it's a different environment.
So, would I gain any battery life by not keeping them bubbling along at 14.4 volts?
Bob Heller
2017 Winnebago 29VE
Winter Springs FL
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| Re: Now the rest of the story - about alternators [message #229622 is a reply to message #228683] |
Tue, 12 November 2013 23:00 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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""I put it back in and got 13.4 in the system right away and it built to 13.6. (Beats nothing by a bunch.) That was the best we ever saw for the rest of the summer. In case you haven't grabbed that, you can charge the house bank from half gone to full charge with 13.6, but it will take you DAYS to do in. It will not happen in a normal driving day of something like 8 hours. This just one reason why a PD92xx works so well.
Well, I put in the Chinese part that I got somewhere this afternoon, and now it fires up at 14.4. Much the betterer. We put more hours on the APU this season than we had in the three prior and most of that was just to charge the house bank. I'm looking to not do that again this next season.
""
Matt, an appropriate charge voltage for this type of alternator/vehicle is 13.8 to 14.2 depending on engine speed and of course temperature. This can vary a lot between manufacturers. Voltage on modern vehicles is controlled by the powertrain computer and can vary wildly based on fuel economy strategies.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: Now the rest of the story - about alternators [message #229629 is a reply to message #229622] |
Wed, 13 November 2013 02:45 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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| Bob de Kruyff wrote on Tue, 12 November 2013 23:00 |
Matt, an appropriate charge voltage for this type of alternator/vehicle is 13.8 to 14.2 depending on engine speed and of course temperature. This can vary a lot between manufacturers. Voltage on modern vehicles is controlled by the powertrain computer and can vary wildly based on fuel economy strategies.
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Those are the numbers I always went with - 13.8 to 14.2. I monitor the voltage on several vehicles that I drive and I find that the engine computers usually run higher voltages when cold. As an example tonight mine was at 14.1 on my cold Colorado at 21 degrees OAT). Hot they get as low as 13.8 or 13.7.
That is my story and I'm sticking with it.
Honda has something called ELD. (Electronic Load detector) I'm not sure exactly how it works except they dial down the voltage after a while to improve gas mileage. I do know they also sense current draw to raise and lower the voltage. This really screws up the kids with their aftermarket radios and boom boxes if they do not attach them correctly to the system. There are lots of forum reports of dead batteries on Hondas after installing aftermarket radios.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: Now the rest of the story - about alternators [message #229656 is a reply to message #228683] |
Wed, 13 November 2013 08:56 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
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Senior Member |
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Dead Hondas and dead boom boom stereos is a bad thing? NOW if they could make the computer sense the non OEM coffee can muffler on the 4 banger and shut it down, that would be great!
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: Now the rest of the story - about alternators [message #229663 is a reply to message #229592] |
Wed, 13 November 2013 09:22 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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| bobby5832708 wrote on Tue, 12 November 2013 20:26 |
Matt,
My thinking is that since I start with fully charged batteries because the GMC is almost always plugged in I really don't need to hold the running voltage at 14.4 to make sure they are charged, that just leads to excessive gassing and battery heat, especially since I am always driving in Florida where it's usually warm and many times take trips of a few hours at a time in that warm weather. Ideally I would like to make the alt output be about 13.8 but I don't want to spend any appreciable amount of money to do this. A $10 voltage regulator I might consider but no more than that.
I can understand the 14.4 volts on a car where the alternator is the only method of charging the battery but since my GMC batteries are kept 'topped up' by the PD converter it's a different environment.
So, would I gain any battery life by not keeping them bubbling along at 14.4 volts?
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Bob,
Running the house bank at a lower density will increase the life as long as you still keep to the rules of letting the density of the electrolyte ever get below 1.200. Below that level is where the sulfur can get locking into the lead.
For what you want, the wrong regulator would work. But you will never be able to fully re-charge the house and main engine batteries. Even if you then go to a combiner in place of an isolator, you will not have the terminal voltage to get there in a full day's driving.
It should not be too difficult to find a regulator that does the 14.4 and no remote sense for a 10si (what we have) alternator. Actually, the GM/Delco alternators used an identical form factor regulator until very recently.
I'm not sure what I did with the one I just took out. I don't think I pitched it.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: Now the rest of the story - about alternators [message #229669 is a reply to message #229622] |
Wed, 13 November 2013 09:35 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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| Bob de Kruyff wrote on Wed, 13 November 2013 00:00 |
Matt, an appropriate charge voltage for this type of alternator/vehicle is 13.8 to 14.2 depending on engine speed and of course temperature. This can vary a lot between manufacturers. Voltage on modern vehicles is controlled by the powertrain computer and can vary wildly based on fuel economy strategies.
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Bob,
You are seriously correct about that. Not only that, but they hold the huge alternators used in modern vehicles off until the idle stabilizes so they don't stall the engine. Kind of like how our belts squeal when doing a cold start with the house bank down.
(I am not sure if it is Hitachi or Nipon/Denso that makes a 200 amp unit in a passcar size frame - not the Leece-Neville monster. And I heard recently that someone is looking at liquid cooling the machine and going higher than that.)
If I had both the reason and the cash, I would put in an alternator and regulator of the type I used buy for owners of performance cruisers (before the depression). That is one Gonzo-Mama alternator and a programable regulator. It will not only hold the field off (leaves enough for the tach to read) for a preset time, but then can limit the output to whatever the alternator belt(s) can take and then will ramp the terminal up with the charge so you don't get the lagging charge rate as the bank voltage comes up. In-short, these things a PD style regulator for a main engine alternator. And, Yes, it can even have a "burp" in the cycle.
There is a whole lot of neat stuff out there if you have the money to buy it.
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] Now the rest of the story - about alternators [message #229689 is a reply to message #229592] |
Wed, 13 November 2013 11:05 |
Jim Bounds
Messages: 842
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Bob,
You are describing your real world driving situation-- I am with ya and is pretty much the same way I use my coach. In fact, mine stays here at the shop plugged in so much I could probably replace mine with motorcycle batteries! We really should run them down periodically them charge them back up but hey, thats in that perfect world none of us have.
If one of these guys dry camp all the time, they will want different stuff than what you and I have. I usually recommend folks put 2 marine style deep cycle batteries on an A/B selector switch. That way they will be able to use one then the other one, charge them seperatly if needbe, have 2 shots at having power and when it's parked can seperate and turn the batteries off entirely. I also add a "combine" circuit between the engine and living area batteries so you can buss power wherever you need it.
So many applications, so little time...
Jim Bounds
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________________________________
From: Bob Heller <rheller@cfl.rr.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 8:26 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Now the rest of the story - about alternators
Matt,
My thinking is that since I start with fully charged batteries because the GMC is almost always plugged in I really don't need to hold the running voltage at 14.4 to make sure they are charged, that just leads to excessive gassing and battery heat, especially since I am always driving in Florida where it's usually warm and many times take trips of a few hours at a time in that warm weather. Ideally I would like to make the alt output be about 13.8 but I don't want to spend any appreciable amount of money to do this. A $10 voltage regulator I might consider but no more than that.
I can understand the 14.4 volts on a car where the alternator is the only method of charging the battery but since my GMC batteries are kept 'topped up' by the PD converter it's a different environment.
So, would I gain any battery life by not keeping them bubbling along at 14.4 volts?
--
Bob Heller
1974 X-Canyonlands 26ft
Winter Springs FL
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| Re: Now the rest of the story - about alternators [message #229691 is a reply to message #229656] |
Wed, 13 November 2013 11:12 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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| JohnL455 wrote on Wed, 13 November 2013 08:56 |
Dead Hondas and dead boom boom stereos is a bad thing? NOW if they could make the computer sense the non OEM coffee can muffler on the 4 banger and shut it down, that would be great!
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I like that idea.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] Now the rest of the story - about alternators [message #229692 is a reply to message #229689] |
Wed, 13 November 2013 11:13 |
Jeff Marten
Messages: 199
Registered: August 2013
Karma: 1
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I'm planning on replacing the single 12v house battery with 2 6v golf cart batteries run in series. You get the extra capacity without having to switch between batteries. To start with I'm going to swipe a couple of the good 6v's from my electric car - it only has 16, and about 8 need to be replaced before I get it back on the road.
> Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 09:05:51 -0800
> From: gmccoop@yahoo.com
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Now the rest of the story - about alternators
>
> Bob,
>
> You are describing your real world driving situation-- I am with ya and is pretty much the same way I use my coach. In fact, mine stays here at the shop plugged in so much I could probably replace mine with motorcycle batteries! We really should run them down periodically them charge them back up but hey, thats in that perfect world none of us have.
>
> If one of these guys dry camp all the time, they will want different stuff than what you and I have. I usually recommend folks put 2 marine style deep cycle batteries on an A/B selector switch. That way they will be able to use one then the other one, charge them seperatly if needbe, have 2 shots at having power and when it's parked can seperate and turn the batteries off entirely. I also add a "combine" circuit between the engine and living area batteries so you can buss power wherever you need it.
>
> So many applications, so little time...
>
> Jim Bounds
> -
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Bob Heller <rheller@cfl.rr.com>
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 8:26 PM
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Now the rest of the story - about alternators
>
>
>
>
> Matt,
>
> My thinking is that since I start with fully charged batteries because the GMC is almost always plugged in I really don't need to hold the running voltage at 14.4 to make sure they are charged, that just leads to excessive gassing and battery heat, especially since I am always driving in Florida where it's usually warm and many times take trips of a few hours at a time in that warm weather. Ideally I would like to make the alt output be about 13.8 but I don't want to spend any appreciable amount of money to do this. A $10 voltage regulator I might consider but no more than that.
>
> I can understand the 14.4 volts on a car where the alternator is the only method of charging the battery but since my GMC batteries are kept 'topped up' by the PD converter it's a different environment.
>
> So, would I gain any battery life by not keeping them bubbling along at 14.4 volts?
>
>
> --
> Bob Heller
> 1974 X-Canyonlands 26ft
> Winter Springs FL
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
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1985 Gulf Stream 34' Sun Stream
1964 Falcon 'Vert
1980 Bradley GTE
1999 Chevy Tahoe
2005 Saab 93 Aero
1987 Suzuki Intruder 1400
1978 Glastron/Carlson CV23
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