Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] Paterson Dizzy
| [GMCnet] Paterson Dizzy [message #218728] |
Sat, 17 August 2013 08:59  |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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G'day,
This is what you will get with a Paterson Dizzy:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/member-galleries/p32021-dick-paterson-s-distri.html
Note the 12 degrees Initial setting.
With all due respect to people that set their timing with vacuum gages but as far as I know the only way you can get an accurate
timing setting without running the risk of over advancing the engine and causing knock (which sometimes can be so quiet you can't
hear it) is to use a timing light. I have NEVER read in any automotive or motorcycle manual I've had to set the timing with vacuum
gages. If anyone has one scan it and put it on the photo site. If I am incorrect PLEASE make me look like a dumbass! ;-)
Also I would like to know exactly what it is you gain by setting the timing with vacuum gages and PLEASE don't give me and seat of
the pants BS like; "the engine performs better" or "I get better gas mileage." Quantify it with numbers / dyno run, acceleration
tests, mileage calculations - hard data!
What I'm really trying to find out are the risks of setting the timing incorrectly and causing engine problems worth the performance
gains? ESPECIALLY in a vehicle like a GMC?
Regards,
Rob M.
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Paterson Dizzy [message #218746 is a reply to message #218728] |
Sat, 17 August 2013 10:24  |
George Beckman
Messages: 1085
Registered: October 2008
Location: Colfax, CA
Karma: 11
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Senior Member |
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F| Robert Mueller wrote on Sat, 17 August 2013 06:59 |
G'day,
This is what you will get with a Paterson Dizzy:
Note the 12 degrees Initial setting.
With all due respect to people that set their timing with vacuum gages but as far as I know the only way you can get an accurate
timing setting without running the risk of over advancing the engine and causing knock (which sometimes can be so quiet you can't
hear it) is to use a timing light. I have NEVER read in any automotive or motorcycle manual I've had to set the timing with vacuum
gages. If anyone has one scan it and put it on the photo site. If I am incorrect PLEASE make me look like a dumbass! 
What I'm really trying to find out are the risks of setting the timing incorrectly and causing engine problems worth the performance
gains? ESPECIALLY in a vehicle like a GMC?
Regards,
Rob
|
Rob, my comments come from the EFI-Computer Controlled perspective.
First, we always set the timing with a light. Otherwise the computer has no idea where the crank is. I would be of the opinion that Dick worked out the advance curve and not setting to 12 would result in the same thing; the distributor would not know where the crank is. All of Dick's work becomes skewed.
Second, one would think we could come up with a spark table for a 455. Just doesn't work. One engine may run fine at a certain advance and RPM and another pings (knocks) like crazy.
Third, both Randy Van Winkle and I had to reduce timing on the Amana run last fall. They started in MO and we started from CA. We met in Montana and while chatting found that we had had more knock counts (pinging) with spark tables we had used for several years. I have a 455 and he has a 403. With the drought, we could only surmise that gas companies were removing ethanol and adding who knows what to slow combustion.
Fourth, we EFI types see advances of 45+ degrees and that may make mechanical distributor folks think this is what they want. However those extreme advances are in place during Lean Cruise, with the air fuel is in the high 16s to even 18 to 1. We can get away with it because lean mixtures tend to take longer to get the fire really going. I can assure you that as soon as the throttle begins to open for a hill the mixture gets richer and the spark advanc is cut back.
So, if Dick's setup doesn't knock I would leave it alone. I don't like to go much more than 12 initial because a warm engine can kick a bit when cranking, which is hard on starters. We need to remember, Dick's work is dyno proven... Under a pull. This is much different than twiddling the distributor in the driveway.
And no, I know this is not hard data other than looking at what the computer tells us about the engine and carefully monitoring fuel mileage. You will remember Randy and I ran up and down the freeway for hours on a set path controlled by cruise control. Spark did make the biggest difference in gas consumption but we also found the point of no return... Where it is so advanced the explosion is pushing the piston before it can get to TDC. (It turns out Bob Drews ran up and down the lanes of SESD to get his spark table right and his is a great table.)
One last point. We found a "dead spot" in the advance of both the 403 and the 455. I mean it did better at say 40 degrees and 44 degrees than it did at 42. We just shook our heads. Dick said he had seen this as well. Go figure. MattC says combustion chambers, etc. do odd things. He was not surprised.
'74 Eleganza, SE, Howell + EBL
Best Wishes,
George
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| Re: [GMCnet] Paterson Dizzy [message #218762 is a reply to message #218748] |
Sat, 17 August 2013 14:05 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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| Steven Ferguson wrote on Sat, 17 August 2013 10:48 |
Don't know where you're coming from on this one Rob. Never heard of
setting timing with a vacuum gauge.....
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It's an old time trick from before timing lights were readily available. We were discussing it on a different thread. I don't recall anyone suggesting it was the preferred way but just A way to get somewhat close.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
[Updated on: Sat, 17 August 2013 14:06] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: [GMCnet] Paterson Dizzy [message #218767 is a reply to message #218762] |
Sat, 17 August 2013 14:22 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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What i prefer these days, is to locate #1 Cylinder at TDC compression
stroke, then pull the distributor cap and rotor so that I can see the
rotating pole piece and the stationary magnetic ring. With the hold down
clamp loose enough to rotate the distributor body, I align the tips of the
rotating pole piece and the magnetic ring. If you are running an EBL
system, this is on the mark. If you are running a Paterson or std hei, use
the light and advance 12 degrees from there.
Jim Hupy
Salem,Or
78 Gmc Royale 403
On Aug 17, 2013 12:06 PM, "Kerry Pinkerton" <Pinkertonk@mchsi.com> wrote:
>
>
> Steven Ferguson wrote on Sat, 17 August 2013 10:48
> > Don't know where you're coming from on this one Rob. Never heard of
> > setting timing with a vacuum gauge.....
>
>
> It's an old time trick before timing lights were readily available. We
> were discussing it on a different thread. I don't recall anyone suggesting
> it was the preferred way but just A way to get somewhat close.
> --
> Kerry Pinkerton
>
> North Alabama, near Huntsville,
>
> 77 Eleganza II, "The Lady", 403CI, also a 76 Eleganza being re-bodied as
> an Art Deco car hauler
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Paterson Dizzy [message #218811 is a reply to message #218728] |
Sat, 17 August 2013 19:30 |
captjack
Messages: 271
Registered: February 2010
Location: Sebastopol, California
Karma: 1
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If you're subject to California Smog testing, the spec for my '76 466 is 8 degrees plus or minus 3, so 12 degrees would be out-of-spec and a failed test. I've set mine to 11 degrees advance. Alternatively I could set it higher and do a readjustment just before the smog test, but finding those timing marks is so difficult, I only wanted to do it once.
Jack Christensen - K6ROW,
'76 Glenbrook/Clasco - "The Silver Bullet",
Sebastopol, CA
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| Re: [GMCnet] Paterson Dizzy [message #218828 is a reply to message #218811] |
Sat, 17 August 2013 21:06 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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We sell Dick Patterson's distributors, I have only seen few come with notes.
We know what were getting, he likes me to order for different ratio.
we stock for 3.07, 3.55, 3.70.
We have a Sun Dist. machine that validates his work.
On Sat, Aug 17, 2013 at 5:30 PM, Jack Christensen <captjack@sonic.net>wrote:
>
>
> If you're subject to California Smog testing, the spec for my '76 466 is 8
> degrees plus or minus 3, so 12 degrees would be out-of-spec and a failed
> test. I've set mine to 11 degrees advance. Alternatively I could set it
> higher and do a readjustment just before the smog test, but finding those
> timing marks is so difficult, I only wanted to do it once.
> --
> Jack Christensen - K6ROW,
> '76 Glenbrook/Clasco - "The Silver Bullet",
> '65 Clark Cortez,
> Sebastopol, CA
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: [GMCnet] Paterson Dizzy [message #218839 is a reply to message #218728] |
Sat, 17 August 2013 23:28 |
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hnielsen2
Messages: 1434
Registered: February 2004
Location: Alpine CA
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Old School
All is well with my Lord
Never Give Up
On Aug 17, 2013, at 12:05, Kerry Pinkerton <Pinkertonk@MCHSI.com> wrote:
>
>
> Steven Ferguson wrote on Sat, 17 August 2013 10:48
>> Don't know where you're coming from on this one Rob. Never heard of
>> setting timing with a vacuum gauge.....
>
>
> It's an old time trick before timing lights were readily available. We were discussing it on a different thread. I don't recall anyone suggesting it was the preferred way but just A way to get somewhat close.
> --
> Kerry Pinkerton
>
> North Alabama, near Huntsville,
>
> 77 Eleganza II, "The Lady", 403CI, also a 76 Eleganza being re-bodied as an Art Deco car hauler
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
_______________________________________________
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All is well with my Lord
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