Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] Eagles and tires installed, now no starter. :/
| [GMCnet] Eagles and tires installed, now no starter. :/ [message #210493] |
Sun, 09 June 2013 16:59  |
Robin Hood
Messages: 1078
Registered: April 2011
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Tom Phipps and his lovely wife Marilyn came over today and helped me out.
We got the new Eagles snugged down to 120ftlbs per Toms impact wrench, will
use a proper torque wrench to set them to proper torque when we move the
coach.
JimK, what's the proper torque for these?
We hooked up the battery, and got nothing when I turned the key. I swear
all we did was hook up the new battery the same ad the old battery, but
nothing happened. I did not test the headlights.
By this point of the day I was exhausted, hot, hungry, sweaty,
filthy, demoralized, and suffering from prolonged exposure to my ultimate
fear (wasps). Tom says the wiring has been creatively altered, and we need
to look at it when we are fresh and have a wiring diagram. I think I've got
it as a PDF and my brother in law works at a local print shop, so that's
handy. Not calling in the cavalry just yet, give us a chance to work the
problem.
Sure looks nice on them aluminum wheels. :)
--
Robin Hood
Jackson, MS
2013 Subaru Outback "Top Flight"
1968 Pontiac Catalina "The Cheshire Cat"
1978 GMC Royale motorhome "Pinto Bean"
1977 GMC Palm Beach motorhome "Barn Queen"
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| Re: [GMCnet] Eagles and tires installed, now no starter. :/ [message #210735 is a reply to message #210494] |
Tue, 11 June 2013 19:34  |
Robin Hood
Messages: 1078
Registered: April 2011
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Tom and Marilyn happened to have an errand here in Jackson today, and Tom
asked if I'd like to meet him at the storage facility for a quick check of
the battery and wiring.
Tom was able to identify what was wrong, and made some corrections, but for
long term use I need new battery cables. I've got headlights now, and I
turned the key.
The good news is that there's power going to the starter, because it
clicks. The bad news is that we don't know if my brand-new battery from
Walmart has enough charge to spin the starter and motor over. It may not,
hence the click, on the other hand, it may be that the starter is frozen.
Perhaps it needs to be tapped with a hammer while turning the key.
At any rate, the main purpose of today's expedition was satisfied,
specifically, we we got the battery correctly wired so that it should
eventually start the motor.
Next step is to bring my battery charger with a 50 amp "Start, Ya Bastard!"
setting to the coach and see what difference that makes.
Working on the problem. :-)
Also, Tom killed about five or six paper wasp nests. My wife and I took him
and Marilyn to a fancy burger place in appreciation. :)
On Sunday, June 9, 2013, Robin Hood wrote:
> http://www.bdub.net/wirediagrams/78-chassis-electrolevel-II.pdf
>
> I'm pretty sure that's the one I need.
>
>
> --
> Robin Hood
> Jackson, MS
> 2013 Subaru Outback "Top Flight"
> 1968 Pontiac Catalina "The Cheshire Cat"
> 1978 GMC Royale motorhome "Pinto Bean"
> 1977 GMC Palm Beach motorhome "Barn Queen"
>
>
--
Robin Hood
Jackson, MS
2013 Subaru Outback "Top Flight"
1968 Pontiac Catalina "The Cheshire Cat"
1978 GMC Royale motorhome "Pinto Bean"
1977 GMC Palm Beach motorhome "Barn Queen"
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| Re: [GMCnet] Eagles and tires installed, now no starter. :/ [message #210740 is a reply to message #210735] |
Tue, 11 June 2013 20:10 |
Jim Miller
Messages: 501
Registered: March 2008
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On Jun 11, 2013, at 8:34 PM, Robin Hood wrote:
> Perhaps it needs to be tapped with a hammer while turning the key.
Uh, no.
Take it off the vehicle and figure out what is wrong or take it to an auto electric shop and let them do it. Starters are dirt simple devices to diagnose and service and hitting them with a hammer will not solve their problems. A half-hour of labor to disassemble, clean and re-assemble them with new wear parts (bushings and perhaps brushes costing no more than $10 for all) will often result in a completely workable and reliable device.
A starter with nothing wrong other than a worn nose bushing can draw tremendous amounts of current and consequently warping the plates in your new battery and/or melting the solder out of the armature's commutator ring due to excessive heat.
--Jim Miller
1977 Eleganza II
1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH
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Jim Miller
1977 Eleganza II
1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH
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| Re: [GMCnet] Eagles and tires installed, now no starter. :/ [message #210741 is a reply to message #210740] |
Tue, 11 June 2013 20:23 |
Robin Hood
Messages: 1078
Registered: April 2011
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Duly noted, no hammer. Can I still hook up my battery charger? Maybe the
battery WallyWorld sold me is lowish.
On Tuesday, June 11, 2013, Jim Miller wrote:
> On Jun 11, 2013, at 8:34 PM, Robin Hood wrote:
>
> > Perhaps it needs to be tapped with a hammer while turning the key.
>
> Uh, no.
>
> Take it off the vehicle and figure out what is wrong or take it to an auto
> electric shop and let them do it. Starters are dirt simple devices to
> diagnose and service and hitting them with a hammer will not solve their
> problems. A half-hour of labor to disassemble, clean and re-assemble them
> with new wear parts (bushings and perhaps brushes costing no more than $10
> for all) will often result in a completely workable and reliable device.
>
> A starter with nothing wrong other than a worn nose bushing can draw
> tremendous amounts of current and consequently warping the plates in your
> new battery and/or melting the solder out of the armature's commutator ring
> due to excessive heat.
>
> --Jim Miller
> 1977 Eleganza II
> 1977 Royale
> Hamilton, OH
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
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--
Robin Hood
Jackson, MS
2013 Subaru Outback "Top Flight"
1968 Pontiac Catalina "The Cheshire Cat"
1978 GMC Royale motorhome "Pinto Bean"
1977 GMC Palm Beach motorhome "Barn Queen"
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| Re: [GMCnet] Eagles and tires installed, now no starter. :/ [message #210747 is a reply to message #210741] |
Tue, 11 June 2013 20:42 |
Jim Miller
Messages: 501
Registered: March 2008
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On Jun 11, 2013, at 9:23 PM, Robin Hood wrote:
> Duly noted, no hammer. Can I still hook up my battery charger?
Of course.
> Maybe the battery WallyWorld sold me is lowish.
Perhaps - but unlikely.
Starters with bad nose bearings will act like they are being powered by a low battery when in actuality they are drawing many hundreds of amps and converting that power into internal heat rather than rotary motion.
We worked on an Onan recently that simply would not crank reliably no matter how many fresh batteries were hooked to it. 15 minutes of cleaning plus two minutes spent installing a 40-cent nose bushing brought its starter back to 100% performance. I'm not saying this is the same problem you have but starter motors are simple devices to examine and repair as part of the troubleshooting process.
--Jim Miller
1977 Eleganza II
1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH
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Jim Miller
1977 Eleganza II
1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH
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| Re: [GMCnet] Eagles and tires installed, now no starter. :/ [message #210748 is a reply to message #210741] |
Tue, 11 June 2013 20:45 |
Mr ERFisher
Messages: 7117
Registered: August 2005
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this is prob. the problem
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g5493-gmc-cranking-improve-for-free.html
gene
On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 6:23 PM, Robin Hood <loxley@gmail.com> wrote:
> Duly noted, no hammer. Can I still hook up my battery charger? Maybe the
> battery WallyWorld sold me is lowish.
>
> On Tuesday, June 11, 2013, Jim Miller wrote:
>
> > On Jun 11, 2013, at 8:34 PM, Robin Hood wrote:
> >
> > > Perhaps it needs to be tapped with a hammer while turning the key.
> >
> > Uh, no.
> >
> > Take it off the vehicle and figure out what is wrong or take it to an
> auto
> > electric shop and let them do it. Starters are dirt simple devices to
> > diagnose and service and hitting them with a hammer will not solve their
> > problems. A half-hour of labor to disassemble, clean and re-assemble
> them
> > with new wear parts (bushings and perhaps brushes costing no more than
> $10
> > for all) will often result in a completely workable and reliable device.
> >
> > A starter with nothing wrong other than a worn nose bushing can draw
> > tremendous amounts of current and consequently warping the plates in your
> > new battery and/or melting the solder out of the armature's commutator
> ring
> > due to excessive heat.
> >
> > --Jim Miller
> > 1977 Eleganza II
> > 1977 Royale
> > Hamilton, OH
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> >
>
>
> --
> Robin Hood
> Jackson, MS
> 2013 Subaru Outback "Top Flight"
> 1968 Pontiac Catalina "The Cheshire Cat"
> 1978 GMC Royale motorhome "Pinto Bean"
> 1977 GMC Palm Beach motorhome "Barn Queen"
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
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| Re: [GMCnet] Eagles and tires installed, now no starter. :/ [message #210755 is a reply to message #210493] |
Tue, 11 June 2013 22:12 |
KB
Messages: 1262
Registered: September 2009
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I vote for low battery or bad connection. Had the same thing
happen recently. I'd pulled off the battery cable and used
some spray that's supposed to keep the terminals from corroding.
Silly me. I'd never used the stuff before and didn't realize
that it's actually an insulator, only to be applied AFTER the
cables are connected. So, by spraying it on the terminal and
then attaching the cable, it made for a really bad connection
and the starter just clicked.
After I cleaned off the spray goo and re-attached the cable,
no more problem (other than embarrassment...)
Karen
1973 23'
1975 26'
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Karen
1975 26'
San Jose, CA
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| Re: [GMCnet] Eagles and tires installed, now no starter. :/ [message #210807 is a reply to message #210772] |
Wed, 12 June 2013 12:03 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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While rewiring may give you some marginal benefit, 12,000+ coaches ran fine without it and probably 1/2 of them 30 years are still running that way. I would go find the actual problem and fix it first. Rewire later if you want. You are just trying to get the coach going now.
I'm not saying saying rewiring is a bad idea. It just is not your problem right now.
Check the condition of and clean the battery cable connections. Do not forget the grounds. If that does not fix it then pull the starter and check the brushes, commutator, and front bearing.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] Eagles and tires installed, now no starter. :/ [message #210818 is a reply to message #210807] |
Wed, 12 June 2013 14:01 |
tphipps
Messages: 3005
Registered: August 2004
Location: Spanish Fort, AL
Karma: 9
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Adding to Robin's problems, the P.O. removed all of the OEM high power 12v cabling, replacing it with proper size wire, but using the bolt clamp style battery connection ends. Very unsatisfactory, in my opinion. The P.O. also installed a battery that had the dual post set-up for both old style top and new style side connections. Then, he used both of the terminals, also leaving a head scratching mess. This battery is dead, and has been replaced with a new one. All the battery cable ends are loose. You cannot get the bolt on connections tight enough to guarantee a clean decent connection. More than a .0 volt drop, I'll bet.
I removed all of the cabling for a second battery (there is not one in the coach right now). I wired the engine battery similar to the original intent. At this point, it would activate the solenoid, but no umph to push the starter. I suspect the butchered battery cables are the main problem at this point.
It's a 70 mile round trip to visit Robin's coach, so I cannot easily just run over and work on it.
Replacing the cables will be the next work trip.
Tom, MS II
2012 Phoenix Cruiser model 2552
KA4CSG
[Updated on: Wed, 12 June 2013 14:01] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: [GMCnet] Eagles and tires installed, now no starter. :/ [message #210829 is a reply to message #210493] |
Wed, 12 June 2013 15:10 |
George B.
Messages: 213
Registered: February 2012
Karma: 1
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See the posting I did "No more starter worries" about 5 pages down. I had been having a very slow cranking problem for a long time and always worried if my coach would start whenever I stopped for gas or turned the engine off for whatever reason.
I followed advice and renewed the entire starter circuit as described in my post and no longer have that apprehension when turning the key. It really does not cost all that much (about $200 - $250) to fix it right and the added reliability is worth much more.
George Butts
Las Vegas Nevada
73 "Custom 26' Q" & 76 23' Birchaven
71 Honda 600 Coupe & 01 Tracker Toads
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| Re: [GMCnet] Eagles and tires installed, now no starter. :/ [message #210917 is a reply to message #210818] |
Thu, 13 June 2013 06:57 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Those bolt - on ends are suitable to get you home in a tight, and little else. Properly sized cables with properly swaged ends on them will guard against corrosion 'walking' up the cable inside the jacket. They will also supply enough current to the starter.
I foudn otu - the hard way - the front bushing in the GMC starter will wear with age and cause very slow cranking. Replacing it gets your hands dirty and takes an hour but results - im my case - in a starter that spins the engine at warp speed.
--johnny
'76 23' transmode norris
'76 palm beach
________________________________
From: Thomas Phipps <tph1pp5@yahoo.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2013 3:01 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Eagles and tires installed, now no starter. :/
Adding to Robin's problems, the P.O. removed all of the OEM high power 12v cabling, replacing it with proper size wire, but using the bolt clamp style battery connection ends. Very unsatisfactory, in my opinion. The P.O. also installed a battery that had the dual post set-up for both old style top and new style side connections. Then, he used both of the terminals, also leaving a head scratching mess. All the battery cable ends are loose. You cannot get the bolt on connections tight enough to guarantee a clean decent connection. More than a .0 volt drop, I'll bet.
I removed all of the cabling for a second battery (there is not one in the coach right now). I wired the engine battery similar to the original intent. At this point, it would activate the solenoid, but no umph to push the starter. I suspect the butchered battery cables are the main problem at this point.
It's a 70 mile round trip to visit Robin's coach, so I cannot easily just run over and work on it.
Replacing the cables will be the next work trip.
Tom, MS II
--
1975 GMC Avion, under forever re-construction
Vicksburg, MS. 3.7 miles from I-20
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Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] Eagles and tires installed, now no starter. :/ [message #210930 is a reply to message #210925] |
Thu, 13 June 2013 08:04 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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That's the one - clamps onto the post.. but the thing is, buy a manufactured cable with the end factory installed. The field installable ends don't do well at all. As someone pointed out, you can't thighen them enough to get a reliable connection over time. I take the old crummy cable down to Advance and match it with the ones on the wall. If you can't find a replacement, any auto electric shop or industrial electric outlet should have the machine to put the ends on correctly.
At a minimum, you need a battery - to - starter solenoid cable, a Starter to boost (firewall mounted) solenoid; an engine to battery cable (for the negative side) and an erngine to frame strap for a ground. This gives the best setup for the 'truck' portion of the system, it has the battery directly connected to the starter solenoid (+ative) and to the engine block (-ative) for best cranking current. Everything else is substantially lower current, thus connections aren't such a worry. These need a battery post terminal on one end (whatever fits your battery) and a flat end with a hole to go on the solenoid or under the bolt on the engine block, as appropriate. The parts places have them, usually on display near the battery display. Buy them by length - measure the old one or measure the run. They will have both black and red, use red from the +ative to the starter solenoid, and black from the -ative to the engine block. Clean all
connecting surfaces with a wire brush.
There is a crimping tool you can get from Greenlee which has dies to properly install ends on cables, but it is so expensive that it's >much< cheaper to just purchase the proper cables and install them. We had one we shipped around the Company for buildouts, I believe the thing cost a couple hundred dollars. Unless you're in the business, just buy the made up.
--johnny
'76 23' transmode norris
'76 palm beach
________________________________
From: Robin Hood <loxley@gmail.com>
To: "gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org" <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2013 8:43 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Eagles and tires installed, now no starter. :/
Johnny, what kinds of ends do I need? Can you give me a link to an example?
The only kind of battery cable connector I'm familiar with are the lead
ones with the square headed bolts that just sort of clamp onto the top post
of a battery.
On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 6:57 AM, Johnny Bridges <jhbridges@ymail.com> wrote:
> Those bolt - on ends are suitable to get you home in a tight, and little
> else. Properly sized cables with properly swaged ends on them will guard
> against corrosion 'walking' up the cable inside the jacket. They will also
> supply enough current to the starter.
> I foudn otu - the hard way - the front bushing in the GMC starter will
> wear with age and cause very slow cranking. Replacing it gets your hands
> dirty and takes an hour but results - im my case - in a starter that spins
> the engine at warp speed.
>
> --johnny
> '76 23' transmode norris
> '76 palm beach
>
>
>
>
--
Robin Hood
Jackson, MS
2013 Subaru Outback "Top Flight"
1968 Pontiac Catalina "The Cheshire Cat"
1978 GMC Royale motorhome "Pinto Bean"
1977 GMC Palm Beach motorhome "Barn Queen"
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Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] Eagles and tires installed, now no starter. :/ [message #210942 is a reply to message #210930] |
Thu, 13 June 2013 09:27 |
 |
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Robin,
What Johnny means is that the wire is cast into the end that attaches to the battery. I just bought two six foot long cables from
O'Reilly's for a "special job." They were $12.99 each.
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: Johnny Bridges
That's the one - clamps onto the post.. but the thing is, buy a manufactured cable with the end factory installed. The field
installable ends don't do well at all. As someone pointed out, you can't thighen them enough to get a reliable connection over
time. I take the old crummy cable down to Advance and match it with the ones on the wall. If you can't find a replacement, any
auto electric shop or industrial electric outlet should have the machine to put the ends on correctly.
At a minimum, you need a battery - to - starter solenoid cable, a Starter to boost (firewall mounted) solenoid; an engine to battery
cable (for the negative side) and an erngine to frame strap for a ground. This gives the best setup for the 'truck' portion of the
system, it has the battery directly connected to the starter solenoid (+ative) and to the engine block (-ative) for best cranking
current. Everything else is substantially lower current, thus connections aren't such a worry. These need a battery post terminal
on one end (whatever fits your battery) and a flat end with a hole to go on the solenoid or under the bolt on the engine block, as
appropriate. The parts places have them, usually on display near the battery display. Buy them by length - measure the old one or
measure the run. They will have both black and red, use red from the +ative to the starter solenoid, and black from the -ative to
the engine block. Clean all connecting surfaces with a wire brush.
There is a crimping tool you can get from Greenlee which has dies to properly install ends on cables, but it is so expensive that
it's >much< cheaper to just purchase the proper cables and install them. We had one we shipped around the Company for buildouts, I
believe the thing cost a couple hundred dollars. Unless you're in the business, just buy the made up.
--johnny
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Eagles and tires installed, now no starter. :/ [message #210957 is a reply to message #210942] |
Thu, 13 June 2013 11:11 |
Robin Hood
Messages: 1078
Registered: April 2011
Karma: 3
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Senior Member |
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I'm taking my battery charger to the storage lot today and I'm going to try
to crank it. Hopefully the battery is just a little weak from sitting on
the Walmart shelf for so long, and it's having trouble punching through the
junky cables. They only have to get me 30 miles to my new storage spot. If
that doesn't work, however, I'll bite the bullet and redo the cables and
possibly the starter as well. Stay tuned tonight for the results. :)
On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 9:27 AM, Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au>wrote:
> Robin,
>
> What Johnny means is that the wire is cast into the end that attaches to
> the battery. I just bought two six foot long cables from
> O'Reilly's for a "special job." They were $12.99 each.
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Johnny Bridges
>
>
> That's the one - clamps onto the post.. but the thing is, buy a
> manufactured cable with the end factory installed. The field
> installable ends don't do well at all. As someone pointed out, you can't
> thighen them enough to get a reliable connection over
> time. I take the old crummy cable down to Advance and match it with the
> ones on the wall. If you can't find a replacement, any
> auto electric shop or industrial electric outlet should have the machine
> to put the ends on correctly.
> At a minimum, you need a battery - to - starter solenoid cable, a Starter
> to boost (firewall mounted) solenoid; an engine to battery
> cable (for the negative side) and an erngine to frame strap for a ground.
> This gives the best setup for the 'truck' portion of the
> system, it has the battery directly connected to the starter solenoid
> (+ative) and to the engine block (-ative) for best cranking
> current. Everything else is substantially lower current, thus connections
> aren't such a worry. These need a battery post terminal
> on one end (whatever fits your battery) and a flat end with a hole to go
> on the solenoid or under the bolt on the engine block, as
> appropriate. The parts places have them, usually on display near the
> battery display. Buy them by length - measure the old one or
> measure the run. They will have both black and red, use red from the
> +ative to the starter solenoid, and black from the -ative to
> the engine block. Clean all connecting surfaces with a wire brush.
> There is a crimping tool you can get from Greenlee which has dies to
> properly install ends on cables, but it is so expensive that
> it's >much< cheaper to just purchase the proper cables and install them.
> We had one we shipped around the Company for buildouts, I
> believe the thing cost a couple hundred dollars. Unless you're in the
> business, just buy the made up.
>
> --johnny
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Robin Hood
Jackson, MS
2013 Subaru Outback "Top Flight"
1968 Pontiac Catalina "The Cheshire Cat"
1978 GMC Royale motorhome "Pinto Bean"
1977 GMC Palm Beach motorhome "Barn Queen"
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