Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Finally about to pull the 403
| Finally about to pull the 403 [message #208779] |
Sat, 25 May 2013 18:06  |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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Senior Member |
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Life has gotten in the way of my prompt removal and repair of my engine but I'm finally ready to take it out either tomorrow afternoon or Monday.
For those not up to speed, my last oil analysis showed a sudden increase of copper from nothing to 3000 parts per million and 4.5% antifreeze. That means that the antifreeze broke down the oil and I've gotten into the copper part of one or more bearings.
While the motor runs and sounds perfect, I've lost confidence in it and it has to come out and be gone through before I'll be comfortable driving it any distance. Hopefully, it will be an overhaul rather than a rebuild but that will depend on what I find when we tear it down.
Here are the options:
1- Refresh the existing 403 (after verifying it's not hurt) Fix the leak
2- Rebuild the 403 top to bottom (if the 403 has crank or block issues)
3- Buy a long block from a reputable re-manufacturer. I was given a link to these folks https://www.sandjengines.com/Engines/Search/OLDSMOBILE/TORONADO/1977 They have been used successfully by some folks in the NW. They build a motorhome specific motor with a 12m/12K mile warranty...all new quality parts etc. I'd probably trust them more than any of my 'local' machine shops.
4- Buy a long block 455 from the same folks
5- Rebuild a 455 (I have one in my parts coach and there are plenty of cores around)
6- Refresh one of the Caddy 500's I brought back from Minnesota
7- Buy a Caddy 500 long block and do the swap.
Option 1 is the preferred but I won't know until I open it up and see what I see.
Ken H has a good friend (and new friend to me) in Americus GA who is a lifelong engine builder and new GMC owner (John Beaver). If I end up having one done locally, I suspect it will end up at John's rather than a local automotive machine shop.
Next week should tell me how much money I'm about to spend.... 
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
[Updated on: Sat, 25 May 2013 19:18] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Finally about to pull the 403 [message #208780 is a reply to message #208779] |
Sat, 25 May 2013 18:18  |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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| Kerry Pinkerton wrote on Sat, 25 May 2013 19:06 |
Life has gotten in the way of my prompt removal and repair of my engine but I'm finally ready to take it out either tomorrow afternoon or Monday.
For those not up to speed, my last oil analysis showed a sudden increase of copper from nothing to 3000 parts per million and 4.5% antifreeze. That means that the antifreeze broke down the oil and I've gotten into the copper part of one or more bearings.
While the motor runs and sounds perfect, I've lost confidence in it and it has to come out and be gone through before I'll be comfortable driving it any distance. Hopefully, it will be an overhaul rather than a rebuild but that will depend on what I find when we tear it down.
Here are the options:
1- Refresh the existing 403 (after verifying it's not hurt) Fix the leak
2- Rebuild the 403 top to bottom (if the 403 has crank or block issues)
3- Buy a long block from a reputable re-manufacturer. I was given a link to these folks https://www.sandjengines.com/Engines/Search/OLDSMOBILE/TORONADO/1977 They have been used successfully by some folks in the NW. They build a motorhome specific motor with a 12m/12K mile warranty...all new quality parts etc. I'd probably trust them more than any of my 'local' machine shops.
4- Buy a long block 455 from the same folks
5- Rebuild a 455 (I have one in my parts coach and there are plenty of cores around)
6- Refresh one of the Caddy 500's I brought back from Minnesota
7- Buy a Caddy 500 long block and do the swap.
Option 1 is the preferred but I won't know until I open it up and see what I see.
Ken H has a good friend (and new friend to me) in Americus GA who is a lifelong engine builder and new GMC owner (John Deavers). If I end up having one done locally, I suspect it will end up at John's rather than a local automotive machine shop.
Next week should tell me how much money I'm about to spend....
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Kerry,
Everything is a compromise.....
If you refresh the existing engine, then you don't have to hunt up all the parts to make it fit and work right.
If you do anything else, it will be a project to collect or fabricate all the needed parts. KenH may be a good friend, but he won't be back until winter. That may affect your available choices.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: Finally about to pull the 403 [message #208782 is a reply to message #208780] |
Sat, 25 May 2013 19:17 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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Senior Member |
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| Matt Colie wrote on Sat, 25 May 2013 18:18 |
...it will be a project to collect or fabricate all the needed parts...
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What needed parts are you speaking of Matt? Replacement heads? Ken brought a couple 455 heads to Bean Station and I bought two 403 cores from. Got two Caddy's if I decide to go that route. between me and my neighbor, we've probably got every engine tool known to man except the specialized machine tools (Boring, valve grinding, etc)
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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| Re: Finally about to pull the 403 [message #208783 is a reply to message #208779] |
Sat, 25 May 2013 19:23 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
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Senior Member |
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Also if the 403 came in the coach when it left Pontiac, that may be devil you know. Besides, if you hadn't done the oil analysis, you'd have no auditory clues that it needs work at at.
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: [GMCnet] Finally about to pull the 403 [message #208789 is a reply to message #208779] |
Sat, 25 May 2013 22:05 |
Kosier
Messages: 834
Registered: February 2008
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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Kerry,
One vote for #6. You'll never regret it.
Gary Kosier
77 PB Cad 500 and loving it.
-----Original Message-----
From: Kerry Pinkerton
Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 7:06 PM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: [GMCnet] Finally about to pull the 403
Life has gotten in the way of my prompt removal and repair of my engine but
I'm finally ready to take it out either tomorrow afternoon or Monday.
For those not up to speed, my last oil analysis showed a sudden increase of
copper from nothing to 3000 parts per million and 4.5% antifreeze. That
means that the antifreeze broke down the oil and I've gotten into the copper
part of one or more bearings.
While the motor runs and sounds perfect, I've lost confidence in it and it
has to come out and be gone through before I'll be comfortable driving it
any distance. Hopefully, it will be an overhaul rather than a rebuild but
that will depend on what I find when we tear it down.
Here are the options:
1- Refresh the existing 403 (after verifying it's not hurt) Fix the leak
2- Rebuild the 403 top to bottom (if the 403 has crank or block issues)
3- Buy a long block from a reputable re-manufacturer. I was given a link to
these folks
https://www.sandjengines.com/Engines/Search/OLDSMOBILE/TORONADO/1977 They
have been used successfully by some folks in the NW. They build a motorhome
specific motor with a 12m/12K mile warranty...all new quality parts etc.
I'd probably trust them more than any of my 'local' machine shops.
4- Buy a long block 455 from the same folks
5- Rebuild a 455 (I have one in my parts coach and there are plenty of cores
around)
6- Refresh one of the Caddy 500's I brought back from Minnesota
7- Buy a Caddy 500 long block and do the swap.
Option 1 is the preferred but I won't know until I open it up and see what I
see.
Ken H has a good friend (and new friend to me) in Americus GA who is a
lifelong engine builder and new GMC owner (John Deavers). If I end up
having one done locally, I suspect it will end up at John's rather than a
local automotive machine shop.
Next week should tell me how much money I'm about to spend.... 8o
--
Kerry Pinkerton
North Alabama, near Huntsville,
77 Eleganza II, "The Lady", 403CI, also a 76 Eleganza being re-bodied as an
Art Deco car hauler
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| Re: Finally about to pull the 403 [message #208824 is a reply to message #208782] |
Sun, 26 May 2013 10:28 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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| Kerry Pinkerton wrote on Sat, 25 May 2013 20:17 |
| Matt Colie wrote on Sat, 25 May 2013 18:18 |
...it will be a project to collect or fabricate all the needed parts...
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What needed parts are you speaking of Matt? Replacement heads? Ken brought a couple 455 heads to Bean Station and I bought two 403 cores from. Got two Caddy's if I decide to go that route. between me and my neighbor, we've probably got every engine tool known to man except the specialized machine tools (Boring, valve grinding, etc)
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Kerry and KenH (who knows first hand),
I was thinking of the engine mounts and FEAD parts. I know Ken had to design a make a new front mount for the cad and I have no idea what the front dress (FEAD) changes are like.
I have changed a few engines and even when the change was supposed to be a common conversion with OE parts, there is always something hiding in the woodpile.
But then again, if you have a native guide things do get much easier.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] Finally about to pull the 403 [message #208865 is a reply to message #208824] |
Sun, 26 May 2013 15:07 |
Kosier
Messages: 834
Registered: February 2008
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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Matt,
If you start with an Eldo motor, (I prefer 75-76), nothing on the motor
needs to be changed. The wiring needs to be rearranged, the gas line on the
frame shortened(left hand fuel pump), new hoses for the AC pump and
make new exhaust pipes. I cheated and did the exhaust the easy way.
Henderson didn't HAVE to make a front mount. I offered to send him the
correct mount. He was too thrifty to pay the money to re-vulcanize the
mount. His way is probably better. I like to always use as many factory
parts as possible. I've got lots of spares and can't remember if I've
changed something. JWID
Gary Kosier
77 PB Cad 500
-----Original Message-----
From: Matt Colie
Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 11:28 AM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Finally about to pull the 403
Kerry Pinkerton wrote on Sat, 25 May 2013 20:17
> Matt Colie wrote on Sat, 25 May 2013 18:18
> > ...it will be a project to collect or fabricate all the needed parts...
>
> What needed parts are you speaking of Matt? Replacement heads? Ken
> brought a couple 455 heads to Bean Station and I bought two 403 cores
> from. Got two Caddy's if I decide to go that route. between me and my
> neighbor, we've probably got every engine tool known to man except the
> specialized machine tools (Boring, valve grinding, etc)
Kerry and KenH (who knows first hand),
I was thinking of the engine mounts and FEAD parts. I know Ken had to
design a make a new front mount for the cad and I have no idea what the
front dress (FEAD) changes are like.
I have changed a few engines and even when the change was supposed to be a
common conversion with OE parts, there is always something hiding in the
woodpile.
But then again, if you have a native guide things do get much easier.
Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie
'73 Glacier 23 Chaumière (say show-me-air)
Now with 4 working Rear Brakes
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: Finally about to pull the 403 [message #208883 is a reply to message #208779] |
Sun, 26 May 2013 18:25 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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Senior Member |
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Oh, I get it Matt, you were talking about if I changed to a Caddy. Still don't know what FEAD is an acronym for?
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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| Re: Finally about to pull the 403 [message #215392 is a reply to message #208779] |
Mon, 22 July 2013 16:47 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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Senior Member |
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Heading down to Americus tomorrow to pick up my engines from John Beaver. We ended up overhauling the 403 because it wasn't hurt. Pretty much clean up, new valves and valve springs, valve job. John ordered most the parts from Mondello and built me a short block.
The Caddy turned out to need pistons and since I don't have an IMMEDIATE need for it, I had John do the heads, bore the block, polish the crank, install new cam bearings, etc. I'll purchase components and build it later on. I just had John do the machine work now to save myself a 14 hour round trip to Americus.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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| Re: Finally about to pull the 403 [message #215405 is a reply to message #215392] |
Mon, 22 July 2013 18:58 |
Larry
Messages: 2875
Registered: January 2004
Location: Menomonie, WI
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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| Kerry Pinkerton wrote on Mon, 22 July 2013 16:47 |
Heading down to Americus tomorrow to pick up my engines from John Beaver. We ended up overhauling the 403 because it wasn't hurt. Pretty much clean up, new valves and valve springs, valve job. John ordered most the parts from Mondello and built me a short block.
The Caddy turned out to need pistons and since I don't have an IMMEDIATE need for it, I had John do the heads, bore the block, polish the crank, install new cam bearings, etc. I'll purchase components and build it later on. I just had John do the machine work now to save myself a 14 hour round trip to Americus.
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When you are ready to do the Cad 500, be sure to talk to us that have been there before you start. Got a good number of things I'd do different. Talk to you then....
Larry 
78 Royale w/500 Caddy
Menomonie, WI.
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| Re: Finally about to pull the 403 [message #215410 is a reply to message #215405] |
Mon, 22 July 2013 20:43 |
stick miller
Messages: 1036
Registered: March 2010
Location: Americus, Georgia
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Kerry - sorry I won't be here - on my way to Macon to finish up some work on my late sister's estate.
"Like 2 ships passing in the night"
Stick Miller
'78 Royale - "White Trash" - she left me for another man
'76 Eleganza - "Cousin Eddie" Sold
'84 Bluebird Wanderlodge - "Past Tents"
Americus, GA
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| Re: Finally about to pull the 403 [message #215412 is a reply to message #215405] |
Mon, 22 July 2013 21:12 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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Senior Member |
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| Larry wrote on Mon, 22 July 2013 18:58 |
...
When you are ready to do the Cad 500, be sure to talk to us that have been there before you start. Got a good number of things I'd do different. Talk to you then....
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You can count on it Larry.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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| Re: Finally about to pull the 403 [message #215498 is a reply to message #208779] |
Tue, 23 July 2013 20:26 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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Senior Member |
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Made a quick...well...not so quick... 760 mile round trip to Americus today and came home with my two engines. Very pleased with how everything looked and the price. It's pretty obvious to me just from looking at his shop and some of the engines that are in it that John Beaver knows what he is doing.
Obviously the long block 403 was all buttoned up and I couldn't see into it but the Caddy was disassembled and I could see everything. Looks like first rate work.
I'm getting too old for these long trips....Ah'm whupped!
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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