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| [GMCnet] Fuel flow meters. [message #208291] |
Sun, 19 May 2013 11:22  |
Jp Benson
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Location: Fla
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I was investigating fuel flow meters to see if there was one that would provide "real time" data on fuel usage. Lots of choices. Some very expensive. Does anyone have any practical experience with using them on GMCs?
Thanks,
JP
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| Re: [GMCnet] Fuel flow meters. [message #208338 is a reply to message #208291] |
Sun, 19 May 2013 20:01  |
powerjon
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Having been in the instrument flow meter business for 40 years, there is nothing out there that is cost effective for GMC use. Your minimum pricing will be in the $250 to $500 range for a small turbine meter then you would have setup cost for calibration connection to your computer system. There are a number of the units that are 0 to 5 Volt output that would work. There is no real value for someone to spend the money and time to put one in. JMHO, yours may vary.
JR Wright
78 Buskirk Stretch
Michigan
On May 19, 2013, at 12:22 PM, Jp Benson <chocomo99@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I was investigating fuel flow meters to see if there was one that would provide "real time" data on fuel usage. Lots of choices. Some very expensive. Does anyone have any practical experience with using them on GMCs?
>
> Thanks,
> JP
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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J.R. Wright
GMC GreatLaker
GMC Eastern States
GMCMI
78 30' Buskirk Stretch
75 Avion Under Reconstruction
Michigan
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| Re: [GMCnet] Fuel flow meters. [message #208353 is a reply to message #208291] |
Mon, 20 May 2013 01:01 |
George Beckman
Messages: 1085
Registered: October 2008
Location: Colfax, CA
Karma: 11
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| Jp Benson wrote on Sun, 19 May 2013 09:22 |
I was investigating fuel flow meters to see if there was one that would provide "real time" data on fuel usage. Lots of choices. Some very expensive. Does anyone have any practical experience with using them on GMCs?
Thanks,
JP
|
JP,
I am a Electronic Fuel Injection (EFI)guy and am not trying to sell you on that with these comments.
The EBL system has an Instant and Trip MPG reading. Even though the computer knows h ow much gas the injectors are squirting the resulting MPG rarely agrees perfectly with the pump. Part of this is because GMCs tend to burp and gurgle at the pump and getting a consistent fill-up is difficult. But, with some tweaking we get close.
That said, a Wide Band O2 sensor, not cheap either, parallels the instant MPG. Whether you have a carb or EFI, it is important to know when the engine is in Power Enrichment. With the carb this happens when the "Power Valve" opens and of course the secondaries. When Power Enrichment engages with EBL we see the mpg drop from 12 to 5 which is why GMCs don't get 12 mpg very often.
The wide band shows a very similar reading. Folks with well tuned QuadraJets tell us they see 16+ to 1 air-fuel ratios when cruising in flat ground which is about what we set the EBL to run when cruising. 14.7 is what all EFI cars run when running in normal mode. But when the smallest hill comes you better see at least 12.8 to 1 or you can be looking for a valve job and possibly other internal heat problems.
The power valve does give you a bit more power but it actually richens the mixture to cool the combustion chambers. Expensive cooling medium, but that is what gas engines use. We have seen exhaust temperatures go up 150 degrees in 30 seconds on no more than a gentle rise when we delayed power enrichment; we are talking half throttle, here..
Just something to think about. I hate driving without one... Wish I had one in the Honda. It is a good way to make sure the carb or EFI is working as it should. You will catch fuel pump and filter problems, know for sure if it is vapor lock or ignition, etc.
While the wide band won't give you mpg, you will start driving differently the second you put on on. It is fun to drive a 12,000 lbs hot rod with plumbing but keeping the secondaries and power valve closed can help with the mpg.
'74 Eleganza, SE, Howell + EBL
Best Wishes,
George
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| Re: [GMCnet] Fuel flow meters. [message #208389 is a reply to message #208353] |
Mon, 20 May 2013 09:54 |
Jp Benson
Messages: 649
Registered: October 2011
Location: Fla
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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George,
It looks like flow meters don't pass the cost to benefit ratio test. I kind of feel that way about TBI vs. QuadraJet although I understand why others prefer TBI. Don't know much about O2 sensors but it sounds like what I was really looking for (plus much more) and is worth investigating.
Thanks,
JP
>________________________________
> From: George Beckman <gbeckman@pggp.com>
>To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
>Sent: Monday, May 20, 2013 2:01 AM
>Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Fuel flow meters.
>
>
>
>
>Jp Benson wrote on Sun, 19 May 2013 09:22
>> I was investigating fuel flow meters to see if there was one that would provide "real time" data on fuel usage. Lots of choices. Some very expensive. Does anyone have any practical experience with using them on GMCs?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> JP
>
>JP,
>
>I am a Electronic Fuel Injection (EFI)guy and am not trying to sell you on that with these comments.
>
>The EBL system has an Instant and Trip MPG reading. Even though the computer knows h ow much gas the injectors are squirting the resulting MPG rarely agrees perfectly with the pump. Part of this is because GMCs tend to burp and gurgle at the pump and getting a consistent fill-up is difficult. But, with some tweaking we get close.
>
>That said, a Wide Band O2 sensor, not cheap either, parallels the instant MPG. Whether you have a carb or EFI, it is important to know when the engine is in Power Enrichment. With the carb this happens when the "Power Valve" opens and of course the secondaries. When Power Enrichment engages with EBL we see the mpg drop from 12 to 5 which is why GMCs don't get 12 mpg very often.
>
>The wide band shows a very similar reading. Folks with well tuned QuadraJets tell us they see 16+ to 1 air-fuel ratios when cruising in flat ground which is about what we set the EBL to run when cruising. 14.7 is what all EFI cars run when running in normal mode. But when the smallest hill comes you better see at least 12.8 to 1 or you can be looking for a valve job and possibly other internal heat problems.
>
>The power valve does give you a bit more power but it actually richens the mixture to cool the combustion chambers. Expensive cooling medium, but that is what gas engines use. We have seen exhaust temperatures go up 150 degrees in 30 seconds on no more than a gentle rise when we delayed power enrichment; we are talking half throttle, here..
>
>Just something to think about. I hate driving without one... Wish I had one in the Honda. It is a good way to make sure the carb or EFI is working as it should. You will catch fuel pump and filter problems, know for sure if it is vapor lock or ignition, etc.
>
>While the wide band won't give you mpg, you will start driving differently the second you put on on. It is fun to drive a 12,000 lbs hot rod with plumbing but keeping the secondaries and power valve closed can help with the mpg.
>
>
>--
>'74 Eleganza, SE, Howell + EBL
>Best Wishes,
>George
>_______________________________________________
>GMCnet mailing list
>Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Fuel flow meters. [message #208437 is a reply to message #208389] |
Mon, 20 May 2013 22:52 |
George Beckman
Messages: 1085
Registered: October 2008
Location: Colfax, CA
Karma: 11
|
Senior Member |
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| Jp Benson wrote on Mon, 20 May 2013 07:54 |
George,
It looks like flow meters don't pass the cost to benefit ratio test. I kind of feel that way about TBI vs. QuadraJet although I understand why others prefer TBI. Don't know much about O2 sensors but it sounds like what I was really looking for (plus much more) and is worth investigating.
Thanks,
JP
>________________________________
> From: George Beckman <gbeckman@pggp.com>
>To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
>Sent: Monday, May 20, 2013 2:01 AM
>Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Fuel flow meters.
>
>
>
>
>Jp Benson wrote on Sun, 19 May 2013 09:22
>> I was investigating fuel flow meters to see if there was one that would provide "real time" data on fuel usage. Lots of choices. Some very expensive. Does anyone have any practical experience with using them on GMCs?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> JP
>
>JP,
>
>I am a Electronic Fuel Injection (EFI)guy and am not trying to sell you on that with these comments.
>
>The EBL system has an Instant and Trip MPG reading. Even though the computer knows h ow much gas the injectors are squirting the resulting MPG rarely agrees perfectly with the pump. Part of this is because GMCs tend to burp and gurgle at the pump and getting a consistent fill-up is difficult. But, with some tweaking we get close.
>
>That said, a Wide Band O2 sensor, not cheap either, parallels the instant MPG. Whether you have a carb or EFI, it is important to know when the engine is in Power Enrichment. With the carb this happens when the "Power Valve" opens and of course the secondaries. When Power Enrichment engages with EBL we see the mpg drop from 12 to 5 which is why GMCs don't get 12 mpg very often.
>
>The wide band shows a very similar reading. Folks with well tuned QuadraJets tell us they see 16+ to 1 air-fuel ratios when cruising in flat ground which is about what we set the EBL to run when cruising. 14.7 is what all EFI cars run when running in normal mode. But when the smallest hill comes you better see at least 12.8 to 1 or you can be looking for a valve job and possibly other internal heat problems.
>
>The power valve does give you a bit more power but it actually richens the mixture to cool the combustion chambers. Expensive cooling medium, but that is what gas engines use. We have seen exhaust temperatures go up 150 degrees in 30 seconds on no more than a gentle rise when we delayed power enrichment; we are talking half throttle, here..
>
>Just something to think about. I hate driving without one... Wish I had one in the Honda. It is a good way to make sure the carb or EFI is working as it should. You will catch fuel pump and filter problems, know for sure if it is vapor lock or ignition, etc.
>
>While the wide band won't give you mpg, you will start driving differently the second you put on on. It is fun to drive a 12,000 lbs hot rod with plumbing but keeping the secondaries and power valve closed can help with the mpg.
>
|
I happen to have a Innovate LC-1. I just looked and suffered sticker shock because you need a gauge as well. It seems ridiculously expensive. I sure don't remember spending that much, but then everytime I turn around something for the GMC seems to cost money. Ha.
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/lc1.php
Here is one I am not familiar with but seems to have the same specs. I think the differences is this is pretty much plug and play where as the LC-1 is programmable. I don't know why a GMCer would program it unless we were trying out propane or some other fuel. This one seems to be mated with a gauge which might be just right. Anyway, perhaps someone knows about this product:
http://www.aemelectronics.com/digital-wideband-air-fuel-gauge-745
Again, not trying to sell you on anything but this might help you figure out when gas is being guzzled and if the Q-Jet is still working as designed. Also, realize you will need someone with welding experience to weld the bung (threaded piece) into the exhaust so the sensor can screw into place. Muffler guys do it all the time. It needs to be more that halfway up the diameter of the pipe to keep it out of condensation. I have Thorley Headers and it is in the stub pipe after the collector.
You also can see severe missing, but only on the side where the sensor is placed, although I suppose with a heated sensor you could put it after the Y in the exhaust.
It is interesting to note that a badly missing engine, although it is belching out unburned hydrocarbons like crazy, an O2 meter will show it is lean. At first this seems backwards, but O2 is measuring the O2 left after a burn, not leftover gas. The sensor expects there to be a certain amount of Oxygen left after a burn. If there is not enough gas, not much oxygen will be used in the burn. If there is too much gas most O2 will be used. A miss burns zero oxygen and lots of oxygen is "supposed" to mean it is lean. Just one of those oddities of the system that gave me a grin when I first realized what was happening. But if it is suddenly lean, make sure a plug has not fouled as 1/4th of the oxygen normally burned is not being burned.
(you can see why a computer controlled fuel system really needs the spark to be on time and strong... luckily the electronic ignitions are good at that.)
A hole in the exhaust or leaking headers will throw the meter off as well. Quite a watch dog.
'74 Eleganza, SE, Howell + EBL
Best Wishes,
George
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