Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] combiner
| [GMCnet] combiner [message #207824] |
Wed, 15 May 2013 15:11  |
peabody
Messages: 126
Registered: May 2011
Location: steamboat springs, co
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Help, I have both a combiner and an isisolator hooked up. When hooked to shore power the engine battery is not being charged. Can anyone help this electrically challenged retired lawyer make sense of this ?? Should I only use just the combiner ? If so, what does it hook to ??
Bill Schurman
Steamboat, Springs, CO Ski Town USA
at the base of Rabbit Ears Pass (7% grade)
'78 Palm Beach TZE168V100258
'66 Porsche 912
'97 Expedition
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| Re: [GMCnet] combiner [message #207829 is a reply to message #207824] |
Wed, 15 May 2013 16:09  |
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RF_Burns
Messages: 2277
Registered: June 2008
Location: S. Ontario, Canada
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Assuming the combiner was connected properly to start with, if your engine battery is not getting a charge while the shore power is connected, then the combiner is not working.
Either the converter/charger in the back is not putting out enough voltage to make the combiner work, or the combiner is faulty.
The isolator is 2 one-way valves (diodes) connected back to back with the alternator output connected in the center. When the alternator is charging, the current flows out the diodes to the engine and chassis batteries. The diodes prevent the current from flowing back from one battery to the other.
The combiner has 3 wires, ground and one to each of the battery systems. When the combiner sees a voltage higher than 13v (approx) from either battery, it assumes there is a charger connected there and it will connect both batteries together so that they charge.
When the voltage falls below approx 12.5 volts it assumes there is no charger there and disconnects the batteries to isolate them.
Look here:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g4944-combiner-to-diode-isolator.html
Bruce Hislop
ON Canada
77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.
1 ton front end
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that
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| Re: [GMCnet] combiner [message #207831 is a reply to message #207824] |
Wed, 15 May 2013 16:16 |
tphipps
Messages: 3005
Registered: August 2004
Location: Spanish Fort, AL
Karma: 9
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Does your battery charger work? Is it connected to the house battery? Did you place the combiner across the isolator, ala Gene? Gene's method is the easiest, connect combiner across the two outside connectors on the isolator. House battery in back ( just for visual action of problem). If so, is there a heavy gauge cable going forward to the battery boost switch?
Boost switch has two terminals, one for engine battery one for house battery, batteries are separated from each other until boost switch is engaged.
Combiner across isolator terminals is fine ( Gene's method). Does green led glow when shore power is connected?
Does engine battery charge when engine is running?
does house battery charge when connected to shore power?
Charger old buzz box? Or newer design?
Tom, MS II
2012 Phoenix Cruiser model 2552
KA4CSG
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| Re: [GMCnet] combiner [message #207892 is a reply to message #207824] |
Thu, 16 May 2013 02:38 |
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mike miller
Messages: 3576
Registered: February 2004
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon
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| peabody wrote on Wed, 15 May 2013 13:11 |
Help, I have both a combiner and an isisolator hooked up. When hooked to shore power the engine battery is not being charged. Can anyone help this electrically challenged retired lawyer make sense of this ?? Should I only use just the combiner ? If so, what does it hook to ??
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The other two posts before mine have good info, please follow them, but they did forget two (unlikely) possibilities... Is there a load on the house system that is using up all the output of you converter/charger? Is the house battery bad to the point is never allows the voltage on the house system to get to "charged" voltage?
Mike Miller -- Hillsboro, OR -- on the Black list
(#2)`78 23' Birchaven Rear Bath -- (#3)`77 23' Birchaven Side Bath
More Sidekicks than GMC's and a late model Malibu called 'Boo'
http://m000035.blogspot.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] combiner [message #207962 is a reply to message #207829] |
Thu, 16 May 2013 17:25 |
peabody
Messages: 126
Registered: May 2011
Location: steamboat springs, co
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Bruce,
I hate to bother you. However in looking at my isolator the alternator is hooked to the center post and one red wire is hooked to one of the outside post BUT there is not a red wire hooked to the other post. My combiner is hooked to each of the outside posts. Perhaps the problem is that I'm missing the "other" red wire on the "other" outside post. What are these red wires? I hope that this makes sense to you and that you can help.
Bill
Bill Schurman
Steamboat, Springs, CO Ski Town USA
at the base of Rabbit Ears Pass (7% grade)
'78 Palm Beach
'66 Porsche 912
'97 Expedition
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> From: bruce@perthcomm.com
> Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 16:09:17 -0500
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] combiner
>
>
>
> Assuming the combiner was connected properly to start with, if your engine battery is not getting a charge while the shore power is connected, then the combiner is not working.
>
> Either the converter/charger in the back is not putting out enough voltage to make the combiner work, or the combiner is faulty.
>
> The isolator is 2 one-way valves (diodes) connected back to back with the alternator output connected in the center. When the alternator is charging, the current flows out the diodes to the engine and chassis batteries. The diodes prevent the current from flowing back from one battery to the other.
>
> The combiner has 3 wires, ground and one to each of the battery systems. When the combiner sees a voltage higher than 13v (approx) from either battery, it assumes there is a charger connected there and it will connect both batteries together so that they charge.
>
> When the voltage falls below approx 12.5 volts it assumes there is no charger there and disconnects the batteries to isolate them.
>
> Look here:
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g4944-combiner-to-diode-isolator.html
>
> --
> Bruce Hislop
> ON Canada
> 77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.
> Hubler 1 ton front end
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
> My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that
> _______________________________________________
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| Re: [GMCnet] combiner [message #208017 is a reply to message #207962] |
Fri, 17 May 2013 08:00 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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| peabody wrote on Thu, 16 May 2013 18:25 |
Bruce,
I hate to bother you. However in looking at my isolator the alternator is hooked to the center post and one red wire is hooked to one of the outside post BUT there is not a red wire hooked to the other post. My combiner is hooked to each of the outside posts. Perhaps the problem is that I'm missing the "other" red wire on the "other" outside post. What are these red wires? I hope that this makes sense to you and that you can help.
Bill
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Bill,
Not Bruce, but,
The two "red" (being the stock color) wires are to each individual bank, main engine and house. If there is only one, then the isolator cannot do what it is supposed to be doing and for that matter, neither is the combiner.
The missing wire is probably attached some place it should not be and this was probably done when the original isolator blew out. This is a common jury rig to get home but it does have the distinct disadvantage of leaving you with possibly no battery power if things go wrong.
At least you have a GMC fit coach. If you don't have a wiring diagram you can download and print it and then do out to the coach and compare what you see to what you should have. You will need both the Chassis and the Living Area diagrams. Of course, what you really will need is the little bit that is commom to both around the battery boost contactor.
Good Luck
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] combiner [message #208162 is a reply to message #208017] |
Sat, 18 May 2013 08:05 |
tphipps
Messages: 3005
Registered: August 2004
Location: Spanish Fort, AL
Karma: 9
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Adding to Matt's wording. The purpose of the isolator is to separate the engine battery and the house battery. It allows both batteries to be charged by the engine alternator when driving down the road. Both red wires, from each end of the combiner go to the boost switch, whose purpose is to combine both batteries, in case your engine battery does not have adequate charge to start the engine. One leg of the boost switch goes to the engine battery and the other leg of the boost switch goes to the house battery. Older coaches this switch is a momentary contact type, newer and modified coach have a heavier value switch that will carry heavier current for longer periods of time. Do not leave the boost switch engaged after the engine is running.
Since you reported that the one post on the isolator is empty, some one has removed the charging wire to one of the batteries. I suspect that side of the isolator has failed and this was a work around that was not repaired.
If you connect the combiner across the isolater, ala Gene, this will replace the function of the isolator for you. You will need to explore and find where the other red wire is now located. The P.O. May have attached it to the same post on the boost switch, a generally bad idea. The missing or mislocated wire is the house battery. And, more likely the reason the house battery is not being charged.
Tom, MS II
2012 Phoenix Cruiser model 2552
KA4CSG
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| Re: [GMCnet] combiner [message #342439 is a reply to message #342437] |
Wed, 10 April 2019 19:55 |
Bruce Hart
Messages: 1501
Registered: October 2011
Location: La Grange, Wyoming
Karma: 5
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From Gene Fishes site on how to install the combiner in 10 minutes.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/combiner-to-diode-isolator/p24994-adding-a-combiner-to-a-stock-diode-isolator.html
On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 6:39 PM Kathy and Fred Estabrook via Gmclist <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
> Thank you.
>
> On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 3:07 PM D C _Mac_ Macdonald
> wrote:
>
>> You simply connect each of the red wires of the combiner to either the
>> upper or lower terminal on the isolator (big box on firewall ahead of
>> passenger with three terminals). The center terminal comes from the
>> alternator output.
>>
>> D C "Mac" Macdonald
>> Amateur Radio K2GKK
>> Since 30 November '53
>> USAF and FAA, Retired
>> Member GMCMI & Classics
>> Oklahoma City, OK
>> "The Money Pit"
>> TZE166V101966
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* Gmclist on behalf of Kathy and
>> Fred Estabrook via Gmclist
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 10, 2019 17:02
>> *To:* gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
>> *Cc:* Kathy and Fred Estabrook
>> *Subject:* [GMCnet] combiner
>>
>> Do you need to install a separate wire to connect the combiner to the
>> house batteries in the back and the engine battery in the front ? The
>> instructions that came with the Yandina are not clear but their service
>> says yes. Anybody else have a better idea?
>> Fred Estabrook
>> 76 El
>> Florence AZ
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--
Bruce Hart
1976 Palm Beach
Milliken, Co
GMC=Got More Class
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Bruce Hart
1976 Palm Beach
1977 28' Kingsley
La Grange, Wyoming
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| Re: [GMCnet] combiner [message #342456 is a reply to message #207824] |
Thu, 11 April 2019 17:32 |
dsmithy
Messages: 210
Registered: July 2012
Location: Lincoln Nebraska
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Yikes!
Now we’re in the weeds and better minds than mine must answer.
Doug
Douglas & Virginia Smith
dsmithy18 at gmail
Lincoln Nebraska
’73 “Canyonlands” since ‘95: “Wanabizo”, Anishinabe Indian for “He gets lost driving” Yes, really.
Quadrabag/6 wheel disks/3;70 final/Paterson QuadraJet/Sundry other
P&W PT6, no wait, that's the wish list...
> On Apr 11, 2019, at 5:30 PM, Emery Stora via Gmclist wrote:
>
> OK. Let’s suppose that your converter is providing 13.5 volts or more to your house battery but you have a bad cell in your engine battery. Doesn’t that mean that it will keep trying to push current to the engine battery? What effect will that have on your house battery or your converter?
>
> I am asking because I don’t have one and don’t know the answer
>
> Emery Stora
>
>> On Apr 11, 2019, at 4:20 PM, Douglas Smith via Gmclist wrote:
>>
>> I’m not sure I understand Emery.
>> The combiner I put on says it will only “combine” if one side or the other is 13.5 volts. If both are less it does nothing and allows no current to pass either way. The way I understand it it will open only at 13.5 volts and feed to the side with the lower voltage till they both reach 13.5 volts. I like the idea very much and have been comforted with the thought that power from either the 120v charger or the engine alternator will top off everything. As for a failure mode, I’ll let you know when that happens.
>> Doug
>>
>>
>> Douglas & Virginia Smith
>> dsmithy18 at gmail
>> Lincoln Nebraska
>> ’73 “Canyonlands” since ‘95: “Wanabizo”, Anishinabe Indian for “He gets lost driving” Yes, really.
>> Quadrabag/6 wheel disks/3;70 final/Paterson QuadraJet/Sundry other
>> P&W PT6, no wait, that's the wish list...
>>
>>> On Apr 11, 2019, at 4:35 PM, Emery Stora via Gmclist wrote:
>>>
>>> It doesn’t make any difference if you connect it to the isolator terminals or directly to the battery because the wires from the isolator lead to the battery.
>>>
>>> I don’t use a combiner as it will allow current to flow either way when it is connected. So, if you have, for example a bad engine battery, it would draw from the house battery bank to the engine battery and possibly drain the house batteries.
>>>
>>> Emery Stora
>>> 77 Kingsley
>>> Frederick, CO
>>>
>>>> On Apr 11, 2019, at 1:53 PM, James Hupy via Gmclist wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Something just seems wrong to me about combining an isolator. Don't know
>>>> what it might possibly be.
>>>> Jim Hupy
>>>> Salem, Or
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Apr 11, 2019, 12:45 PM Kathy and Fred Estabrook via Gmclist >>> gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > Many thanks to all those who helped. Had a shakedown cruise this morning
>>>> > and everything works great. Thanks again.
>>>> > Fred Estabrook
>>>> > 76 El
>>>> > Florence AZ
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > GMCnet mailing list
>>>> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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>>>
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>>
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Douglas & Virginia Smith,
dsmithy18 at gmail,
Lincoln Nebraska,
’73 “Sequoia” since ‘95: "Wanabizo";
Quadrabag/6 wheel disks/3:70 final/Paterson QuadraJet/Thorley’s/Alloy wheels/Sundry other
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| Re: [GMCnet] combiner [message #342465 is a reply to message #207824] |
Fri, 12 April 2019 02:54 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Either the combiner is broken, which is not unusual, or it is attached incorrectly.
The third possibility is the converter is not putting out a high enough voltage to make it combine.
I have been involved with the replacement of four bad combiners on three different coaches and I do not have one on my coach. These bad ones were on other people's coaches. A combiner is a dubious "improvement" to your coach and I wouldn't remove a working isolator and that has worked for over 40 years only to rely on a less reliable isolator. They both will work together.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] combiner [message #342466 is a reply to message #342465] |
Fri, 12 April 2019 06:12 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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I, too, have replaced several Yandina C100 combiners -- 3 on my own coach.
After the last one, I upgraded to the C135. Despite the claims, I don't
consider the C100 adequate for the GMC. Remember that Andina Marie Foster,
owner of Yandina, inventor of the combiner, originally rated the C100 for
50 amps. She only changed the rating to 100 amps after all the competitors
rated similar ones at 100 -- a dubious basis for what should be an
engineering decision.
Stick with the C135 and above and I think you can enjoy the benefits
without the failures.
Ken H.
Americus, GA
'76 X-Birchaven w/Cad500/Howell EFI & EBL,
Manny Brakes & 1-Ton, Troy-Bilt APU, etc., etc., etc.
www.gmcwipersetc.com
On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 4:02 AM Ken Burton via Gmclist <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
> Either the combiner is broken, which is not unusual, or it is attached
> incorrectly.
> The third possibility is the converter is not putting out a high enough
> voltage to make it combine.
>
> I have been involved with the replacement of four bad combiners on three
> different coaches and I do not have one on my coach. These bad ones were on
> other people's coaches. A combiner is a dubious "improvement" to your
> coach and I wouldn't remove a working isolator and that has worked for over
> 40
> years only to rely on a less reliable isolator. They both will work
> together.
> --
>
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] combiner [message #342528 is a reply to message #207824] |
Mon, 15 April 2019 08:23 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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The giveaway here is, there is no connection to one side of the isolator. That the house battery dies regularly indicates this is the problem. First, MAKE THE WIRING CORRESPOND TO THE DIAGRAM. I suspect then if you crank it you will charge both batteries through the isolator. If one doesn't charge, the isolator has a problem.
Once the stock 12V systems are properly wired and charging with the engine alternator, you can decide whether a combiner is to your advantage or not. To me, it matters only when the coach is parked and there's AC power to the 12V supply. At that point a combiner keeps both sets of batteries up.
My 23' had no combiner, but used a solar panel on the roof and a controller that kept the engine battery hot. The 12V supply kept the house bank up. My current coach has a combiner which keeps both up when it's parked. Since it's now under cover, I see no need for a solar system.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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