Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Rebuilding Olds Engines
| Rebuilding Olds Engines [message #204899] |
Wed, 17 April 2013 05:56  |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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I split this off from the other thread.
| Gary Berry wrote on Tue, 16 April 2013 21:17 |
Yep, I agree that there isn't going to be a lack of parts anytime soon, but
there appears to be a shortage of quality rebuilders for the 455 (or 403)
at least here on the West coast.
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Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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| Re: Rebuilding Olds Engines [message #204901 is a reply to message #204899] |
Wed, 17 April 2013 06:35  |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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Well I had a premature submit...
So I've heard a few times here that the Olds is different and only a certain few can build one that will hold up. I guess I'd like to understand this better. I've build a few engines over the years, a few Chevys, a few Mopars, even a Ford. (Oh, and a International TD14 bulldozer engine)
I've known a bunch of guys who routinely build engines in their home shop and had engines that run for years and years. As have mine. To my knowledge (and I don't pretend to be an expert), a pushrod engine, is a pushrod engine, is a pushrod engine. Yeah, there are minor differences but they are MINOR and our shop manual is very good.
The problem as I see it is folks (rebuilders) who try and do it on the cheap....mixing parts, not doing a complete job (only turning the journal that went bad, etc), crappy machine work. Jasper has pretty much destroyed a good reputation because of engine failures that when examined revealed shoddy workmanship and poor machining.
One of my engine rebuilding buddies has invested in some measuring tools and manually checks ALL the machine work he has done. Huntsville has some really competent automotive machine shops and he has used most of them. It's not unusual for something to be 'off'. When brought to their attention, they make excuses but make it right. When everything is right, he personally assembles the engine and is anal about cleanliness and tolerances.
Here is a link to a quality rebuild kit (the first one I found on google):
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/fem-csmhp822-011/overview/make/oldsmobile
Federal Mogul is a quality brand but if they aren't your cup of tea, there are many other options. You should be able to find a COMPLETE rebuild long block kit for under a $1000. This one is $630 and has everything from the freeze plugs up. The heads are not included but valves and valve stem seals are not expensive. Machine work and labor is where the cost is.
Yeah, you might have some money if you had EVERYTHING done and EVERYTHING replaced such as all new valves, valve springs, new connecting rods, etc, but is that really necessary?
And I've heard the horror stories about someone buying a 'name' high buck engine and it going south in just a short time too. "Stuff happens" and it happens to the best from time to time.
There are lots of quality builders out there that actually give a damn and have a reputation for good work. I guess what I'm asking is WHY do we think that we can only get an engine from the Jims, Patterson, Mondello, ?? Is there something more unique about the Olds that I'm not understanding?
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
[Updated on: Wed, 17 April 2013 06:37] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: [GMCnet] Rebuilding Olds Engines [message #204905 is a reply to message #204904] |
Wed, 17 April 2013 07:32 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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What detrimental effect should be expected from the higher compression ratio?
--johnny
'76 23' transmode norris
'76 palm beach
________________________________
From: Bob Drewes <bmdrewes@iw.net>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 8:25 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Rebuilding Olds Engines
Fella's;
The pistons in that kit are for 9.6 to 1 compression ratio, not a deep enough dish in the piston for use in a GMCMH.
Just ready to button up the bottom end of a 455 yesterday and found out that Melling forgot to do some milling on the new oil pump, not enough clearance for the rear crankshaft counter-weight. I just pulled the pump and milled off where it was needed for clearance and all is well now. Everything needs to be triple checked!!
Bob Drewes in SESD
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Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: Rebuilding Olds Engines [message #204909 is a reply to message #204901] |
Wed, 17 April 2013 08:44 |
Dennis S
Messages: 3046
Registered: November 2005
Karma: 2
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Kerry,
Not sure if the price shown is current -- but interesting information from Sirum GMC.
http://www.gmcmh.com/New_Folder3/Engine_Rebuild.html
Dennis
| Kerry Pinkerton wrote on Wed, 17 April 2013 06:35 |
Well I had a premature submit...
So I've heard a few times here that the Olds is different and only a certain few can build one that will hold up. I guess I'd like to understand this better. I've build a few engines over the years, a few Chevys, a few Mopars, even a Ford. (Oh, and a International TD14 bulldozer engine)
I've known a bunch of guys who routinely build engines in their home shop and had engines that run for years and years. As have mine. To my knowledge (and I don't pretend to be an expert), a pushrod engine, is a pushrod engine, is a pushrod engine. Yeah, there are minor differences but they are MINOR and our shop manual is very good.
The problem as I see it is folks (rebuilders) who try and do it on the cheap....mixing parts, not doing a complete job (only turning the journal that went bad, etc), crappy machine work. Jasper has pretty much destroyed a good reputation because of engine failures that when examined revealed shoddy workmanship and poor machining.
One of my engine rebuilding buddies has invested in some measuring tools and manually checks ALL the machine work he has done. Huntsville has some really competent automotive machine shops and he has used most of them. It's not unusual for something to be 'off'. When brought to their attention, they make excuses but make it right. When everything is right, he personally assembles the engine and is anal about cleanliness and tolerances.
Here is a link to a quality rebuild kit (the first one I found on google):
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/fem-csmhp822-011/overview/make/oldsmobile
Federal Mogul is a quality brand but if they aren't your cup of tea, there are many other options. You should be able to find a COMPLETE rebuild long block kit for under a $1000. This one is $630 and has everything from the freeze plugs up. The heads are not included but valves and valve stem seals are not expensive. Machine work and labor is where the cost is.
Yeah, you might have some money if you had EVERYTHING done and EVERYTHING replaced such as all new valves, valve springs, new connecting rods, etc, but is that really necessary?
And I've heard the horror stories about someone buying a 'name' high buck engine and it going south in just a short time too. "Stuff happens" and it happens to the best from time to time.
There are lots of quality builders out there that actually give a damn and have a reputation for good work. I guess what I'm asking is WHY do we think that we can only get an engine from the Jims, Patterson, Mondello, ?? Is there something more unique about the Olds that I'm not understanding?
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Dennis S
73 Painted Desert 230
Memphis TN Metro
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| Re: Rebuilding Olds Engines [message #204911 is a reply to message #204904] |
Wed, 17 April 2013 08:54 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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| Surbo wrote on Wed, 17 April 2013 07:25 |
The pistons in that kit are for 9.6 to 1 compression ratio, not a deep enough dish in the piston for use in a GMCMH. ...
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This is the kind of info I was hoping to get.
So are the GMCMH pistons unique? Who offers the correct parts and what is unique to the GMCMH vs a generic 455 toro thing?
I didn't specifically look at anything but a generic kit.
| Surbo wrote on Wed, 17 April 2013 07:25 |
... Everything needs to be triple checked!!
|
Absodamnlutely
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
[Updated on: Wed, 17 April 2013 08:55] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: [GMCnet] Rebuilding Olds Engines [message #204914 is a reply to message #204901] |
Wed, 17 April 2013 09:03 |
 |
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Kerry,
I've heard the same BS that GMC engines are special. I can't remember who told me that but I'll bet it was someone that never
rebuilt any engine.
I don't give a damn what kind of engine it is be it a auto engine, aircraft engine, ship engine, motorcycle engine, etc if the
rebuilder follows the engine manufacturers specifications and instructions AND pays ATTENTION TO DETAILS the engine they've rebuilt
will be fine.
Joe Mondello did note that the problem now-a-days was finding parts that met the OEM specs, when he and I spoke he specifically
mentioned pistons that were "all over the place!"
I did a Google search for "hot rod clubs - Houston" when I was looking for a shop to do the machine work on the Caddy 500 I have. I
called a couple of them and the guys I spoke to noted "Scroggins." I called Scroggins and asked; "do you need the pistons to bore an
engine? Tom noted "absolutely."
I've seen your workmanship and all YOU need is a good machine shop and to check the parts!
Regards,
Rob
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Kerry Pinkerton
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 6:36 AM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Rebuilding Olds Engines
Well I had a premature submit...
So I've heard a few times here that the Olds is different and only a certain few can build one that will hold up. I guess I'd like
to understand this better. I've build a few engines over the years, a few Chevys, a few Mopars, even a Ford. (Oh, and a
International TD14 bulldozer engine)
I've known a bunch of guys who routinely build engines in their home shop and had engines that run for years and years. As have
mine. To my knowledge (and I don't pretend to be an expert), a pushrod engine, is a pushrod engine, is a pushrod engine. Yeah,
there are minor differences but they are MINOR and our shop manual is very good.
The problem as I see it is folks (rebuilders) who try and do it on the cheap....mixing parts, not doing a complete job (only turning
the journal that went bad, etc), crappy machine work. Jasper has pretty much destroyed a good reputation because of engine failures
that when examined revealed shoddy workmanship and poor machining.
One of my engine rebuilding buddies has invested in some measuring tools and manually checks ALL the machine work he has done.
Huntsville has some really competent automotive machine shops and he has used most of them. It's not unusual for something to be
'off'. When brought to their attention, they make excuses but make it right. When everything is right, he personally assembles the
engine and is anal about cleanliness and tolerances.
Here is a link to a quality rebuild kit (the first one I found on google):
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/fem-csmhp822-011/overview/make/oldsmobile
Federal Mogul is a quality brand but if they aren't your cup of tea, there are many other options. You should be able to find a
COMPLETE rebuild long block kit for under a $1000. This one is $630 and has everything from the freeze plugs up. The heads are not
included but valves and valve stem seals are not expensive. Machine work and labor is where the cost is.
Yeah, you might have some money if you had EVERYTHING done and EVERYTHING replaced such as all new valves, valve springs, new
connecting rods, etc, but is that really necessary?
There are lots of quality builders out there that actually give a damn and have a reputation for good work. I guess what I'm asking
is WHY do we think that we can only get an engine from the Jims, Patterson, Mondello, ?? Is there something more unique about the
Olds that I'm not understanding?
--
Kerry Pinkerton
North Alabama, near Huntsville,
77 Eleganza II, "The Lady", 403CI, also a 76 Eleganza being re-bodied as an Art Deco car hauler
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Rebuilding Olds Engines [message #204915 is a reply to message #204899] |
Wed, 17 April 2013 09:06 |
Mr ERFisher
Messages: 7117
Registered: August 2005
Karma: 2
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It is not that special
just need to do it right as you say
here is some info'
http://www.gmceast.com/technical/
and
http://www.gmceast.com/about/Bovee_Idiots-Guide.pdf
gene
On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 3:56 AM, Kerry Pinkerton <Pinkertonk@mchsi.com>wrote:
>
>
> I split this off from the other thread.
>
> Gary Berry wrote on Tue, 16 April 2013 21:17
> > Yep, I agree that there isn't going to be a lack of parts anytime soon,
> but
> > there appears to be a shortage of quality rebuilders for the 455 (or 403)
> > at least here on the West coast.
>
>
> --
> Kerry Pinkerton
>
> North Alabama, near Huntsville,
>
> 77 Eleganza II, "The Lady", 403CI, also a 76 Eleganza being re-bodied as
> an Art Deco car hauler
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
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| Re: Rebuilding Olds Engines [message #204920 is a reply to message #204899] |
Wed, 17 April 2013 09:25 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
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What if we start a GMC engine registry? At failure you send in post mortem and tie it to the TZE . Might help future owners as a record. List in columns, engine source (Jasper etc), was it a motorhome grade rebuild as Paterson and others or generic, miles on engine, type of failure ( head gasket, timing chain, piston, rod or main bearing, cam lobes for ZDDP fanatics, external failure caused as hoses or belts). Might also show weak areas trends needing improvement. This may be well known but changing in recent years with lower quality hard parts?
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: Rebuilding Olds Engines [message #204923 is a reply to message #204901] |
Wed, 17 April 2013 09:34 |
gbarrow2
Messages: 765
Registered: February 2004
Location: Lake Almanor, Ca./ Red Bl...
Karma: 3
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This may be the first actual "MYTH BUSTER" thread. Well done. Keep it up.
But, the problem is that most of us GMC 'hobbyists" don't have the experience or technical knowledge to supervise/manage/monitor a local shop. So we will tend to go with who we know and hope are doing it right, the GMC motorhome vendors.
Gene Barrow
Lake Almanor, Ca.
1976 Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Rebuilding Olds Engines [message #204924 is a reply to message #204914] |
Wed, 17 April 2013 09:39 |
Steven Ferguson
Messages: 3447
Registered: May 2006
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We're back to the same old argument. There are rebuilds, and there are
quality rebuilds. Production shops just cannot spend the time it takes to
measure every part and do the pre-assemblys required to build a precision
engine and make a profit. If they did, they'd have to charge prices like
Mondello, Patterson, Koba etc. Too many of us are discouraged by those
prices and go elsewhere. Production shops use the least expensive rebuild
kits available and you can bet that everything in that kit is used.
Production ring packs, production seals, standard valve guides and seats,
reground valves and the lowest priced shop they can find with a crankshaft
grinder. The guys that measure twice, like Bob Drewes, file ring gaps to
factory specs, catch ring gap burs, incorrectly packaged oil pumps,
excessive end play, bearing crush, and on and on. Oldsmobile engines are
not special and do not have any special machining or assembly requirements
that any other engine does not have. The crate motor business has put a
serious dent in the remanufacturing end of the business and those that are
left that do a great job, are few and far between.
Steve F.
On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 7:03 AM, Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au>wrote:
> Kerry,
>
> I've heard the same BS that GMC engines are special. I can't remember who
> told me that but I'll bet it was someone that never
> rebuilt any engine.
>
> I don't give a damn what kind of engine it is be it a auto engine,
> aircraft engine, ship engine, motorcycle engine, etc if the
> rebuilder follows the engine manufacturers specifications and instructions
> AND pays ATTENTION TO DETAILS the engine they've rebuilt
> will be fine.
>
> Joe Mondello did note that the problem now-a-days was finding parts that
> met the OEM specs, when he and I spoke he specifically
> mentioned pistons that were "all over the place!"
>
> I did a Google search for "hot rod clubs - Houston" when I was looking for
> a shop to do the machine work on the Caddy 500 I have. I
> called a couple of them and the guys I spoke to noted "Scroggins." I
> called Scroggins and asked; "do you need the pistons to bore an
> engine? Tom noted "absolutely."
>
> I've seen your workmanship and all YOU need is a good machine shop and to
> check the parts!
>
> Regards,
> Rob
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org [mailto:
> gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Kerry Pinkerton
> Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 6:36 AM
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Rebuilding Olds Engines
>
> Well I had a premature submit...
>
> So I've heard a few times here that the Olds is different and only a
> certain few can build one that will hold up. I guess I'd like
> to understand this better. I've build a few engines over the years, a few
> Chevys, a few Mopars, even a Ford. (Oh, and a
> International TD14 bulldozer engine)
>
> I've known a bunch of guys who routinely build engines in their home shop
> and had engines that run for years and years. As have
> mine. To my knowledge (and I don't pretend to be an expert), a pushrod
> engine, is a pushrod engine, is a pushrod engine. Yeah,
> there are minor differences but they are MINOR and our shop manual is very
> good.
>
> The problem as I see it is folks (rebuilders) who try and do it on the
> cheap....mixing parts, not doing a complete job (only turning
> the journal that went bad, etc), crappy machine work. Jasper has pretty
> much destroyed a good reputation because of engine failures
> that when examined revealed shoddy workmanship and poor machining.
>
> One of my engine rebuilding buddies has invested in some measuring tools
> and manually checks ALL the machine work he has done.
> Huntsville has some really competent automotive machine shops and he has
> used most of them. It's not unusual for something to be
> 'off'. When brought to their attention, they make excuses but make it
> right. When everything is right, he personally assembles the
> engine and is anal about cleanliness and tolerances.
>
> Here is a link to a quality rebuild kit (the first one I found on google):
>
> http://www.summitracing.com/parts/fem-csmhp822-011/overview/make/oldsmobile
>
> Federal Mogul is a quality brand but if they aren't your cup of tea, there
> are many other options. You should be able to find a
> COMPLETE rebuild long block kit for under a $1000. This one is $630 and
> has everything from the freeze plugs up. The heads are not
> included but valves and valve stem seals are not expensive. Machine work
> and labor is where the cost is.
>
> Yeah, you might have some money if you had EVERYTHING done and EVERYTHING
> replaced such as all new valves, valve springs, new
> connecting rods, etc, but is that really necessary?
>
> There are lots of quality builders out there that actually give a damn and
> have a reputation for good work. I guess what I'm asking
> is WHY do we think that we can only get an engine from the Jims,
> Patterson, Mondello, ?? Is there something more unique about the
> Olds that I'm not understanding?
> --
> Kerry Pinkerton
>
> North Alabama, near Huntsville,
>
> 77 Eleganza II, "The Lady", 403CI, also a 76 Eleganza being re-bodied as
> an Art Deco car hauler
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Take care,
Steve
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| Re: [GMCnet] Rebuilding Olds Engines [message #204931 is a reply to message #204924] |
Wed, 17 April 2013 10:16 |
kelvin
Messages: 608
Registered: February 2004
Location: Eugene, OR
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Aren't there special "thrust bearing" issues caused by bolting an old
torque converter to a new motor?
I vaguely remember reading that somewhere. A bulletin, I think...
Kelvin
'73 23' in Eugene, OR - with a core Toro motor stored in the shed...
On 4/17/2013 7:39 AM, Steven Ferguson wrote:
> We're back to the same old argument. There are rebuilds, and there are
> quality rebuilds. Production shops just cannot spend the time it takes to
> measure every part and do the pre-assemblys required to build a precision
> engine and make a profit. If they did, they'd have to charge prices like
> Mondello, Patterson, Koba etc. Too many of us are discouraged by those
> prices and go elsewhere. Production shops use the least expensive rebuild
> kits available and you can bet that everything in that kit is used.
> Production ring packs, production seals, standard valve guides and seats,
> reground valves and the lowest priced shop they can find with a crankshaft
> grinder. The guys that measure twice, like Bob Drewes, file ring gaps to
> factory specs, catch ring gap burs, incorrectly packaged oil pumps,
> excessive end play, bearing crush, and on and on. Oldsmobile engines are
> not special and do not have any special machining or assembly requirements
> that any other engine does not have. The crate motor business has put a
> serious dent in the remanufacturing end of the business and those that are
> left that do a great job, are few and far between.
> Steve F.
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 7:03 AM, Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au>wrote:
>
>> Kerry,
>>
>> I've heard the same BS that GMC engines are special. I can't remember who
>> told me that but I'll bet it was someone that never
>> rebuilt any engine.
>>
>>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Rebuilding Olds Engines [message #204933 is a reply to message #204924] |
Wed, 17 April 2013 10:38 |
|
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Steve,
I don't think anyone's arguing about this. I reckon we're all in agreement that if you buy an engine from one of the "GMC suppliers"
you're better off than getting one from a production shop.
Seems to me logic would dictate that an engine that hauled a GMC that can weigh up to three times the weight of a Toronado would
have proportionally higher stresses placed upon it and if it was not built to the OEM specs that would result in a shorter engine
life.
I wonder if production shop technicians are even aware of the fine points and if they are do the CARE enough to make sure they meet
the fine points.
As I've noted previously I have one of Dick's engines that went through a fire up in Canada in pieces; as I disassembled it time and
time again I noticed little things that showed the amount of attention to detail Dick spends when rebuilding an engine.
The only other experience I have with GMC engines is the one that is in Double Trouble that was built by Ken Frey in September of
1993 is still going strong and it has 64,466 miles on it. I did replace the cam chain awhile back. It has good compression on all
cylinders, runs 45-55 lb oil press under speed, and 21 in vacuum at idle.
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: Steven Ferguson
We're back to the same old argument. There are rebuilds, and there are
quality rebuilds. Production shops just cannot spend the time it takes to
measure every part and do the pre-assemblys required to build a precision
engine and make a profit. If they did, they'd have to charge prices like
Mondello, Patterson, Koba etc. Too many of us are discouraged by those
prices and go elsewhere. Production shops use the least expensive rebuild
kits available and you can bet that everything in that kit is used.
Production ring packs, production seals, standard valve guides and seats,
reground valves and the lowest priced shop they can find with a crankshaft
grinder. The guys that measure twice, like Bob Drewes, file ring gaps to
factory specs, catch ring gap burs, incorrectly packaged oil pumps,
excessive end play, bearing crush, and on and on. Oldsmobile engines are
not special and do not have any special machining or assembly requirements
that any other engine does not have. The crate motor business has put a
serious dent in the remanufacturing end of the business and those that are
left that do a great job, are few and far between.
Steve F.
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Rebuilding Olds Engines [message #204934 is a reply to message #204933] |
Wed, 17 April 2013 10:54 |
Jerry Wheeler
Messages: 246
Registered: January 2013
Karma: 2
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Rob,
What's good compression for you??
JR Wheeler 78 Royale NC/OR
I have a 77 Birchaven for sale with good compression (146-158). Belongs to
my deceased friend; coach is in very good shape.
On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au>wrote:
> Steve,
>
> I don't think anyone's arguing about this. I reckon we're all in agreement
> that if you buy an engine from one of the "GMC suppliers"
> you're better off than getting one from a production shop.
>
> Seems to me logic would dictate that an engine that hauled a GMC that can
> weigh up to three times the weight of a Toronado would
> have proportionally higher stresses placed upon it and if it was not built
> to the OEM specs that would result in a shorter engine
> life.
>
> I wonder if production shop technicians are even aware of the fine points
> and if they are do the CARE enough to make sure they meet
> the fine points.
>
> As I've noted previously I have one of Dick's engines that went through a
> fire up in Canada in pieces; as I disassembled it time and
> time again I noticed little things that showed the amount of attention to
> detail Dick spends when rebuilding an engine.
>
> The only other experience I have with GMC engines is the one that is in
> Double Trouble that was built by Ken Frey in September of
> 1993 is still going strong and it has 64,466 miles on it. I did replace
> the cam chain awhile back. It has good compression on all
> cylinders, runs 45-55 lb oil press under speed, and 21 in vacuum at idle.
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steven Ferguson
>
> We're back to the same old argument. There are rebuilds, and there are
> quality rebuilds. Production shops just cannot spend the time it takes to
> measure every part and do the pre-assemblys required to build a precision
> engine and make a profit. If they did, they'd have to charge prices like
> Mondello, Patterson, Koba etc. Too many of us are discouraged by those
> prices and go elsewhere. Production shops use the least expensive rebuild
> kits available and you can bet that everything in that kit is used.
> Production ring packs, production seals, standard valve guides and seats,
> reground valves and the lowest priced shop they can find with a crankshaft
> grinder. The guys that measure twice, like Bob Drewes, file ring gaps to
> factory specs, catch ring gap burs, incorrectly packaged oil pumps,
> excessive end play, bearing crush, and on and on. Oldsmobile engines are
> not special and do not have any special machining or assembly requirements
> that any other engine does not have. The crate motor business has put a
> serious dent in the remanufacturing end of the business and those that are
> left that do a great job, are few and far between.
> Steve F.
>
>
>
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| Re: Rebuilding Olds Engines [message #204936 is a reply to message #204899] |
Wed, 17 April 2013 11:06 |
rcjordan
Messages: 1913
Registered: October 2012
Location: Elizabeth City, North Car...
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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>Joe Mondello did note that the problem now-a-days was finding parts that met the OEM specs, when he and I spoke he specifically
mentioned pistons that were "all over the place!"
JimB said the same. Except he added/emphasized "mixing parts" as Kerry mentioned as being a part of the problem.
>Bob Drewes
"When E.F Hutton talks..."
SOLD 77 Royale Coachmen Side Dry Bath
76 Birchaven Coachmen Side Wet Bath
76 Eleganza
Elizabeth City, NC
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| Re: [GMCnet] Rebuilding Olds Engines [message #204938 is a reply to message #204933] |
Wed, 17 April 2013 11:19 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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Senior Member |
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| Robert Mueller wrote on Wed, 17 April 2013 10:38 |
...
I wonder if production shop technicians are even aware of the fine points and if they are do the CARE enough to make sure they meet
the fine points....
|
As an example, how many rebuilders are provided or even care about what the manual says.
10 minutes ago I finished reinstalling my intake manifold after chasing a water leak and blocking the crossover. I was AMAZED at the torque sequence. Never seen another like it. I'd bet dollars to donuts that the average shop would just torque it in the same sequence (and probably torque too) as they do the typical small block Chebby...'hell, ah been twisting wrenches since Hoover, pull em to 60 ft lbs and go...' If I had not happened to look, I would have torqued starting in the center and working out on diagonals. Might have worked fine but the factory did things for a reason.
Just yesterday I learned from Ken Henderson that our heads are induction hardened from the factory. If you take one to a shop for a valve job and they do the standard "Oh, we put in hardened seats for you." bit, they probably cut into the water jacket.
It's things like that I'd like to know. A registry of engine failures would be amazing. Data is one thing...lots of data can lead to actual information.
Hopefully, Mr Drews and others will chime in with specific parts and sources. I haven't even checked the GMCMI interchange guide for engine internals but that might be a good source...or not.
I'm confident in my ability to read the manual and build an engine. I'm not confident in my knowledge as to what parts to get, where to get them, and what oddities to watch out for.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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| Re: [GMCnet] Rebuilding Olds Engines [message #204939 is a reply to message #204934] |
Wed, 17 April 2013 11:17 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
|
Senior Member |
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Jerry, compression pressures, as indicated by a mechanical test gage, are
an indicator of engine condition. Atmosphereic pressure is around 14.7 psi
at sea level at 70 degrees f. IF AN ENGINE WERE A PERFECT AIR PUMP (which
they are not) and you had a 10 to 1 compression ratio, and you ran a
compression test on that engine, in theory you should show 147 psi with one
compression stroke of the engine. Most compression tests include several
revolutions of the engine, and the gages trap the readings from the
previous stroke, so they usually bump up a few psi with each stroke
depending on the accuracy of the gage and about a zillion other factors. I
always remove all the plugs and hold the carb throttle plates wide open
when I do compression tests. A well broken in 455 in stock form on MY GAGE,
in good shape, is considered to be in excellent condition when all
cylinders pump within 5 - 10% of each other and exceed 150 psi on MY GAGE
after 5 compression strokes. Your GAGE will read differently than mine.
Hope this helps.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 Gmc Royale 403
On Apr 17, 2013 8:54 AM, "Jerry Wheeler" <jrwheeler7@gmail.com> wrote:
> Rob,
>
> What's good compression for you??
>
> JR Wheeler 78 Royale NC/OR
>
> I have a 77 Birchaven for sale with good compression (146-158). Belongs to
> my deceased friend; coach is in very good shape.
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au
> >wrote:
>
> > Steve,
> >
> > I don't think anyone's arguing about this. I reckon we're all in
> agreement
> > that if you buy an engine from one of the "GMC suppliers"
> > you're better off than getting one from a production shop.
> >
> > Seems to me logic would dictate that an engine that hauled a GMC that can
> > weigh up to three times the weight of a Toronado would
> > have proportionally higher stresses placed upon it and if it was not
> built
> > to the OEM specs that would result in a shorter engine
> > life.
> >
> > I wonder if production shop technicians are even aware of the fine points
> > and if they are do the CARE enough to make sure they meet
> > the fine points.
> >
> > As I've noted previously I have one of Dick's engines that went through a
> > fire up in Canada in pieces; as I disassembled it time and
> > time again I noticed little things that showed the amount of attention to
> > detail Dick spends when rebuilding an engine.
> >
> > The only other experience I have with GMC engines is the one that is in
> > Double Trouble that was built by Ken Frey in September of
> > 1993 is still going strong and it has 64,466 miles on it. I did replace
> > the cam chain awhile back. It has good compression on all
> > cylinders, runs 45-55 lb oil press under speed, and 21 in vacuum at idle.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Rob M.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Steven Ferguson
> >
> > We're back to the same old argument. There are rebuilds, and there are
> > quality rebuilds. Production shops just cannot spend the time it takes
> to
> > measure every part and do the pre-assemblys required to build a precision
> > engine and make a profit. If they did, they'd have to charge prices like
> > Mondello, Patterson, Koba etc. Too many of us are discouraged by those
> > prices and go elsewhere. Production shops use the least expensive
> rebuild
> > kits available and you can bet that everything in that kit is used.
> > Production ring packs, production seals, standard valve guides and seats,
> > reground valves and the lowest priced shop they can find with a
> crankshaft
> > grinder. The guys that measure twice, like Bob Drewes, file ring gaps
> to
> > factory specs, catch ring gap burs, incorrectly packaged oil pumps,
> > excessive end play, bearing crush, and on and on. Oldsmobile engines
> are
> > not special and do not have any special machining or assembly
> requirements
> > that any other engine does not have. The crate motor business has put a
> > serious dent in the remanufacturing end of the business and those that
> are
> > left that do a great job, are few and far between.
> > Steve F.
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> >
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Rebuilding Olds Engines [message #204946 is a reply to message #204938] |
Wed, 17 April 2013 11:56 |
|
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Kerry,
So you discovered that the OEM intake manifold torquing procedure is opposite to anything you've ever seen before, you start on the
outside and work inwards.
That was discussed here before your time and I think we came to the conclusion it was done because of the unique gasket (turkey
tray).
At the time I checked my Caddy 500 manual and IIRC it too uses a turkey tray; unfortunately I can't remember if the intake manifold
gets torqued in the same sequence. I am in Houston and the Caddy manual is in Sydney.
I even called Edelbrock who also use the 'reverse" procedure to see if they knew why that was so. The "kid" I spoke to asked me to
hold on a moment while he spoke to one of the "old guys." When he came back he said Edelbrock had copied the OEM procedure and they
use a 0.040 fiber type gasket.
I instructed the shop that rebuilt the heads for my Caddy 500 that I wanted stellite valve seats because it will be run on LPG. They
screwed up and used the wrong OD valve seats and hit water. I got another set done by Jerry Potter in Soddy Daisy, TN (Mr. Caddy 500
- now retired) with the correct valve seats.
I agree that a data bank of engine failures would be helpful IF the analysis was done by people who KNOW what they're doing.
Otherwise you're just going to get a myriad of meaningless opinions.
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: Kerry Pinkerton
As an example, how many rebuilders are provided or even care about what the manual says.
10 minutes ago I finished reinstalling my intake manifold after chasing a water leak and blocking the crossover. I was AMAZED at
the torque sequence. Never seen another like it. I'd bet dollars to donuts that the average shop would just torque it in the same
sequence (and probably torque too) as they do the typical small block Chebby...'hell, ah been twisting wrenches since Hoover, pull
em to 60 ft lbs and go...' If I had not happened to look, I would have torqued starting in the center and working out on diagonals.
Might have worked fine but the factory did things for a reason.
Just yesterday I learned from Ken Henderson that our heads are induction hardened from the factory. If you take one to a shop for a
valve job and they do the standard "Oh, we put in hardened seats for you." bit, they probably cut into the water jacket.
It's things like that I'd like to know. A registry of engine failures would be amazing. Data is one thing...lots of data can lead
to actual information.
Hopefully, Mr Drews and others will chime in with specific parts and sources. I haven't even checked the GMCMI interchange guide
for engine internals but that might be a good source...or not.
I'm confident in my ability to read the manual and build an engine. I'm not confident in my knowledge as to what parts to get,
where to get them, and what oddities to watch out for.
--
Kerry
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GMCnet mailing list
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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