Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Disturbing news from Blackstone Labs
| Disturbing news from Blackstone Labs [message #204174] |
Tue, 09 April 2013 17:54  |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
|
Senior Member |
|
|
After I made the LazyDays rally, I changed the oil and just got around to sending the sample to BlackStone. They called today and there is an 'issue'.
The sample shows 1.22% antifreeze and antifreeze can cause extra wear in the engine as evidenced by higher than expected metals content. About 4 times normal for a 3000 mile change but I really don't know how long it had been or what happened with/by/to the PO. Also the lead was almost 20 times normal which COULD be caused by leaded gas. I just don't know. I've put some real gas in since I changed the oil but who knows what happened before.
In retrospect, it was pretty stupid not to have immediately changed the oil when I got the coach...but it sure looked good.
I've got about 1000 miles on the new oil and as soon as they send me a new test container, I'll pull a sample and retest. I have absolutely no idea if the PO accidentally poured some coolant in the oil or not. It wouldn't surprise me given some of the other things but I suspect the worst, a blown head gasket or small crack in a head. It runs too good to be a big problem and I'm not seeing any coolant loss now that I've got all my external leaks fixed.
I'll probably have a better diagnosis in a few weeks. I suspect I'll be going through an engine this summer.... 
If I do have to go through the engine, I'll probably drop the whole front subframe. I've got a 1 ton front end on order and want to do the drive chain thing and install my 'new' 321 and it just seems easier to drop the whole thing and work on it on a table.
Trying to be optimistic but 1.22% coolant just ain't good and there really isn't any other way for it to get in the oil other than some dumbass pouring coolant into the oil filler. I guess that is a possibility but I'm not counting on it.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
|
|
|
|
| Re: Disturbing news from Blackstone Labs [message #204176 is a reply to message #204174] |
Tue, 09 April 2013 18:01  |
Chr$
Messages: 2690
Registered: January 2004
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Karma: 1
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Or a leaking intake or head gasket...
-Chr$: Perpetual SmartAss
Scottsdale, AZ
77 Ex-Kingsley 455 SOLD!
2010 Nomad 24 Ft TT 390W PV W/MPPT, EV4010 and custom cargo door.
Photosite: Chrisc GMC:"It has Begun" TT: "The Other Woman"
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Disturbing news from Blackstone Labs [message #204177 is a reply to message #204174] |
Tue, 09 April 2013 18:02 |
k2gkk
Messages: 4452
Registered: November 2009
Karma: -8
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Hi, Kerry.
I've received at least one suggestion to send
a sample of my oil in for testing for clues to
the status of my engine, as well as several
that say the engine may not truly be toasted
and require a replacement.
Since you have the most recent experience with
Blackstone, I'd appreciate contact info for them
and any other info you may provide.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ D C "Mac" Macdonald ~ ~~
~ ~ Amateur Radio - K2GKK ~ ~
~ ~ USAF and FAA, Retired ~ ~
~ ~ ~ Oklahoma City, OK ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ ~ "The Money Pit" ~ ~ ~~
~ ~ ~ ~ TZE166V101966 ~ ~ ~ ~
~ ~ ~ '76 ex-Palm Beach ~ ~ ~
~ www.gmcmhphotos.com/okclb ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
______________
*[ ]~~~[][ ][|\
*--OO--[]---O-*
Can you
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> From: Pinkertonk@MCHSI.com
> Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 17:54:45 -0500
> Subject: [GMCnet] Disturbing news from Blackstone Labs
>
>
>
> After I made the LazyDays rally, I changed the oil and just got around to sending the sample to BlackStone. They called today and there is an 'issue'.
>
> The sample shows 1.22% antifreeze and antifreeze can cause extra wear in the engine as evidenced by higher than expected metals content. About 4 times normal for a 3000 mile change but I really don't know how long it had been or what happened with/by/to the PO. Also the lead was almost 20 times normal which COULD be caused by leaded gas. I just don't know. I've put some real gas in since I changed the oil but who knows what happened before.
>
> In retrospect, it was pretty stupid not to have immediately changed the oil when I got the coach...but it sure looked good.
>
> I've got about 1000 miles on the new oil and as soon as they send me a new test container, I'll pull a sample and retest. I have absolutely no idea if the PO accidentally poured some coolant in the oil or not. It wouldn't surprise me given some of the other things but I suspect the worst, a blown head gasket or small crack in a head. It runs too good to be a big problem and I'm not seeing any coolant loss now that I've got all my external leaks fixed.
>
> I'll probably have a better diagnosis in a few weeks. I suspect I'll be going through an engine this summer.... :(
>
> If I do have to go through the engine, I'll probably drop the whole front subframe. I've got a 1 ton front end on order and want to do the drive chain thing and install my 'new' 321 and it just seems easier to drop the whole thing and work on it on a table.
>
> Trying to be optimistic but 1.22% coolant just ain't good and there really isn't any other way for it to get in the oil other than some dumbass pouring coolant into the oil filler. I guess that is a possibility but I'm not counting on it.
> --
> Kerry Pinkerton
>
> North Alabama, near Huntsville,
>
> 77 Eleganza II, "The Lady", 403CI, also a 76 Eleganza being re-bodied as an Art Deco car hauler
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
|
|
|
|
| Re: Disturbing news from Blackstone Labs [message #204178 is a reply to message #204174] |
Tue, 09 April 2013 18:19 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
|
Senior Member |
|
|
If it runs that good, i'd retorque the head bolts, and the intake bolts, throw in the recommended count of Bars leak tablets and enjoy the coach. JWIWD. And yes changing fluids on a new purchase helps with the unknown factor.
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
|
|
|
|
| Re: Disturbing news from Blackstone Labs [message #204179 is a reply to message #204174] |
Tue, 09 April 2013 18:20 |
Devin
Messages: 203
Registered: July 2012
Location: Nashville Tennessee
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
You could easily put antifreeze in the oil filter if you have no experience with these coaches. It's probably fine.
Devin Wells
Nashville, Tennessee
1974 GMC Sequoia 260 "Gilligan"
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Disturbing news from Blackstone Labs [message #204181 is a reply to message #204177] |
Tue, 09 April 2013 18:30 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
|
Senior Member |
|
|
| k2gkk wrote on Tue, 09 April 2013 18:02 |
...
Since you have the most recent experience with
Blackstone, I'd appreciate contact info for them
and any other info you may provide. ...
|
Mac, you can contact them at 260-744-2380 or through their web site at www.blackstone-labs.com.
They will send you a test kit. You get your engine to temp and fill up a small bottle they send you and ship it off. $25 bucks plus shipping. If you overnight it to them (Ft. Wayne In), they do the test the same day. I did normal mail and sent mine off a week ago.
The called me with the heads up and emailed the results. The report will show the current AND previous tests so you get to see changes over time.
I'm impressed and will be doing this regularly. The absolutely LAST, fricking LAST thing I want is to have the coach fail with the boss in it.
I'd absolutely spend the $25 before I even thought about having a motor rebuilt Mac. If there is no metal in the sample, you haven't damaged the engine and the knock was something else.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Disturbing news from Blackstone Labs [message #204182 is a reply to message #204180] |
Tue, 09 April 2013 18:35 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
|
Senior Member |
|
|
| Mr ERFisher wrote on Tue, 09 April 2013 18:27 |
...it is a leak
head gasket
manifold
...
|
Assuming it is Gene and that would be the best case scenario...other than no antifreeze in the next sample...would I be better off dropping the pan and changing all the bearings anyway or just fix the lean and drive on? The motor is a 56K original 403 and runs really, really good.
Will a leak down test show which cylinder has the problem?
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Disturbing news from Blackstone Labs [message #204189 is a reply to message #204181] |
Tue, 09 April 2013 18:56 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Mac,
There are other sources, probably some cheaper, than Blackstone, but I
don't think you'll get a better analysis anywhere. The owner, and his son,
have given presentation at GMC rallies. They track GMC motorhomes in a
unique database so that the comparative averages they give you are vs the
GMC MH, not generic Olds or other engines.
I've had more than my share of engine problems, what with the two recent
Cad500 thrust bearing failures. In each case, my first clue of impending
disaster came from their report.
Today I changed the oil for the 3rd time on the latest Cad500. I cut the
oil filter open and found only a very few tiny, non-threatening, bright
particles after 6700 total miles and 2250 on this change. But I still sent
the sample off to Blackstone to be sure I've finally gotten over my jinx.
Ken H.
>
> k2gkk wrote on Tue, 09 April 2013 18:02
> > ...
> > Since you have the most recent experience with
> > Blackstone, I'd appreciate contact info for them
> > and any other info you may provide. ...
>
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Disturbing news from Blackstone Labs [message #204191 is a reply to message #204174] |
Tue, 09 April 2013 19:11 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Where would it get leaded gas, unless someone put avgas in it? I'd have to wonder if it isn't from bearings... which antifreeze will attack. But, I'd sure find out how antifreeze is getting in the oil quickly. Next analysis should tell the tale as to whether some got inadvertantly poured in or there's a leak somelace.
--johnny
'76 23' transmode norris
'76 palm beach
From: Kerry Pinkerton <Pinkertonk@MCHSI.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Tuesday, April 9, 2013 6:54 PM
Subject: [GMCnet] Disturbing news from Blackstone Labs
After I made the LazyDays rally, I changed the oil and just got around to sending the sample to BlackStone. They called today and there is an 'issue'.
The sample shows 1.22% antifreeze and antifreeze can cause extra wear in the engine as evidenced by higher than expected metals content. About 4 times normal for a 3000 mile change but I really don't know how long it had been or what happened with/by/to the PO. Also the lead was almost 20 times normal which COULD be caused by leaded gas. I just don't know. I've put some real gas in since I changed the oil but who knows what happened before.
In retrospect, it was pretty stupid not to have immediately changed the oil when I got the coach...but it sure looked good.
I've got about 1000 miles on the new oil and as soon as they send me a new test container, I'll pull a sample and retest. I have absolutely no idea if the PO accidentally poured some coolant in the oil or not. It wouldn't surprise me given some of the other things but I suspect the worst, a blown head gasket or small crack in a head. It runs too good to be a big problem and I'm not seeing any coolant loss now that I've got all my external leaks fixed.
I'll probably have a better diagnosis in a few weeks. I suspect I'll be going through an engine this summer.... :(
If I do have to go through the engine, I'll probably drop the whole front subframe. I've got a 1 ton front end on order and want to do the drive chain thing and install my 'new' 321 and it just seems easier to drop the whole thing and work on it on a table.
Trying to be optimistic but 1.22% coolant just ain't good and there really isn't any other way for it to get in the oil other than some dumbass pouring coolant into the oil filler. I guess that is a possibility but I'm not counting on it.
--
Kerry Pinkerton
North Alabama, near Huntsville,
77 Eleganza II, "The Lady", 403CI, also a 76 Eleganza being re-bodied as an Art Deco car hauler
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Disturbing news from Blackstone Labs [message #204208 is a reply to message #204191] |
Tue, 09 April 2013 20:33 |
GMC_LES
Messages: 569
Registered: October 2009
Location: Montreal
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Kerry
The contaminates detected in your oil could be the remnants of a problem that occurred and was repaired prior to you owning your GMC.
The detected coolant levels by themselves are not excessive but combined with high lead levels it sounds like possible bearing deterioration. If it were my vehicle, I'd be doing a retorque of the manifold and heads then an oil change. Short trips and frequent oil samples should indicate if the problem is getting worse or better, providing you with info to determine your next move. If the sample results show a significant improvement then you should be good to wander further from home. If deciding to run the engine as is, I would certainly subject the motor to a frequent oil sampling schedule for the next 5000-10,000 miles or so to be sure that the bearings aren't deteriorating prematurely.
Les Burt
Montreal
On 2013-04-09, at 8:11 PM, Johnny Bridges <jhbridges@ymail.com> wrote:
> Where would it get leaded gas, unless someone put avgas in it? I'd have to wonder if it isn't from bearings... which antifreeze will attack. But, I'd sure find out how antifreeze is getting in the oil quickly. Next analysis should tell the tale as to whether some got inadvertantly poured in or there's a leak somelace.
>
> --johnny
> '76 23' transmode norris
> '76 palm beach
>
> From: Kerry Pinkerton <Pinkertonk@MCHSI.com>
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Sent: Tuesday, April 9, 2013 6:54 PM
> Subject: [GMCnet] Disturbing news from Blackstone Labs
>
>
>
> After I made the LazyDays rally, I changed the oil and just got around to sending the sample to BlackStone. They called today and there is an 'issue'.
>
> The sample shows 1.22% antifreeze and antifreeze can cause extra wear in the engine as evidenced by higher than expected metals content. About 4 times normal for a 3000 mile change but I really don't know how long it had been or what happened with/by/to the PO. Also the lead was almost 20 times normal which COULD be caused by leaded gas. I just don't know. I've put some real gas in since I changed the oil but who knows what happened before.
>
> In retrospect, it was pretty stupid not to have immediately changed the oil when I got the coach...but it sure looked good.
>
> I've got about 1000 miles on the new oil and as soon as they send me a new test container, I'll pull a sample and retest. I have absolutely no idea if the PO accidentally poured some coolant in the oil or not. It wouldn't surprise me given some of the other things but I suspect the worst, a blown head gasket or small crack in a head. It runs too good to be a big problem and I'm not seeing any coolant loss now that I've got all my external leaks fixed.
>
> I'll probably have a better diagnosis in a few weeks. I suspect I'll be going through an engine this summer.... :(
>
> If I do have to go through the engine, I'll probably drop the whole front subframe. I've got a 1 ton front end on order and want to do the drive chain thing and install my 'new' 321 and it just seems easier to drop the whole thing and work on it on a table.
>
> Trying to be optimistic but 1.22% coolant just ain't good and there really isn't any other way for it to get in the oil other than some dumbass pouring coolant into the oil filler. I guess that is a possibility but I'm not counting on it.
> --
> Kerry Pinkerton
>
> North Alabama, near Huntsville,
>
> 77 Eleganza II, "The Lady", 403CI, also a 76 Eleganza being re-bodied as an Art Deco car hauler
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Les Burt
Montreal
1975 Eleganza 26ft
A work in Progress
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Disturbing news from Blackstone Labs [message #204211 is a reply to message #204181] |
Tue, 09 April 2013 20:51 |
k2gkk
Messages: 4452
Registered: November 2009
Karma: -8
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Well, as you know, Kerry, ours DID fail with boss aboard,
just 56 miles from home on our way to Dothan! It must
be obvious that I have a very patient and forgiving wife!
A failure 56 miles away from home is a LOT more bearable
than one that strands you 500+ miles down the road.
I'll give them a call tomorrow.
Thanks again for the info.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ D C "Mac" Macdonald ~ ~~
~ ~ Amateur Radio - K2GKK ~ ~
~ ~ USAF and FAA, Retired ~ ~
~ ~ ~ Oklahoma City, OK ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ ~ "The Money Pit" ~ ~ ~~
~ ~ ~ ~ TZE166V101966 ~ ~ ~ ~
~ ~ ~ '76 ex-Palm Beach ~ ~ ~
~ www.gmcmhphotos.com/okclb ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
______________
*[ ]~~~[][ ][|\
*--OO--[]---O-*
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> From: Pinkertonk@MCHSI.com
> Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 18:30:55 -0500
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Disturbing news from Blackstone Labs
>
>
>
> k2gkk wrote on Tue, 09 April 2013 18:02
> > ...
> > Since you have the most recent experience with
> > Blackstone, I'd appreciate contact info for them
> > and any other info you may provide. ...
>
>
> Mac, you can contact them at 260-744-2380 or through their web site at www.blackstone-labs.com.
>
> They will send you a test kit. You get your engine to temp and fill up a small bottle they send you and ship it off. $25 bucks plus shipping. If you overnight it to them (Ft. Wayne In), they do the test the same day. I did normal mail and sent mine off a week ago.
>
> The called me with the heads up and emailed the results. The report will show the current AND previous tests so you get to see changes over time.
>
> I'm impressed and will be doing this regularly. The absolutely LAST, fricking LAST thing I want is to have the coach fail with the boss in it.
>
> I'd absolutely spend the $25 before I even thought about having a motor rebuilt Mac. If there is no metal in the sample, you haven't damaged the engine and the knock was something else.
> --
> Kerry Pinkerton
>
> North Alabama, near Huntsville,
>
> 77 Eleganza II, "The Lady", 403CI, also a 76 Eleganza being re-bodied as an Art Deco car hauler
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Disturbing news from Blackstone Labs [message #204239 is a reply to message #204211] |
Wed, 10 April 2013 03:20 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Kerry,
Might be better to do as some has suggested and re torque the heads and
tighten the intake, then get the newer Nano type engine block sealer and
follow the procedure.
Change oil and filter , then drive it for few hundred miles and take
another sample.
If the coolent content disapiers, and the metel content stabalises, then
run another analysis of the same oil after another thousand miles and see.
The cost of doing this is lot less, but is in no way an absolute way.
I have done this on my personal vehicles at our shop when we did not want
to invest $ on an engine and has worked out.
On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 6:51 PM, D C _Mac_ Macdonald <k2gkk@hotmail.com>wrote:
> Well, as you know, Kerry, ours DID fail with boss aboard,
> just 56 miles from home on our way to Dothan! It must
> be obvious that I have a very patient and forgiving wife!
> A failure 56 miles away from home is a LOT more bearable
> than one that strands you 500+ miles down the road.
>
> I'll give them a call tomorrow.
>
> Thanks again for the info.
>
> ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
> ~~ ~ D C "Mac" Macdonald ~ ~~
> ~ ~ Amateur Radio - K2GKK ~ ~
> ~ ~ USAF and FAA, Retired ~ ~
> ~ ~ ~ Oklahoma City, OK ~ ~ ~
> ~~ ~ ~ "The Money Pit" ~ ~ ~~
> ~ ~ ~ ~ TZE166V101966 ~ ~ ~ ~
> ~ ~ ~ '76 ex-Palm Beach ~ ~ ~
> ~ www.gmcmhphotos.com/okclb ~
> ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
> ______________
> *[ ]~~~[][ ][|\
> *--OO--[]---O-*
>
>
>
>
> > To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> > From: Pinkertonk@MCHSI.com
> > Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 18:30:55 -0500
> > Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Disturbing news from Blackstone Labs
> >
> >
> >
> > k2gkk wrote on Tue, 09 April 2013 18:02
> > > ...
> > > Since you have the most recent experience with
> > > Blackstone, I'd appreciate contact info for them
> > > and any other info you may provide. ...
> >
> >
> > Mac, you can contact them at 260-744-2380 or through their web site at
> www.blackstone-labs.com.
> >
> > They will send you a test kit. You get your engine to temp and fill up a
> small bottle they send you and ship it off. $25 bucks plus shipping. If you
> overnight it to them (Ft. Wayne In), they do the test the same day. I did
> normal mail and sent mine off a week ago.
> >
> > The called me with the heads up and emailed the results. The report will
> show the current AND previous tests so you get to see changes over time.
> >
> > I'm impressed and will be doing this regularly. The absolutely LAST,
> fricking LAST thing I want is to have the coach fail with the boss in it.
> >
> > I'd absolutely spend the $25 before I even thought about having a motor
> rebuilt Mac. If there is no metal in the sample, you haven't damaged the
> engine and the knock was something else.
> > --
> > Kerry Pinkerton
> >
> > North Alabama, near Huntsville,
> >
> > 77 Eleganza II, "The Lady", 403CI, also a 76 Eleganza being re-bodied as
> an Art Deco car hauler
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Disturbing news from Blackstone Labs [message #204241 is a reply to message #204174] |
Wed, 10 April 2013 06:50 |
Steven Ferguson
Messages: 3447
Registered: May 2006
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
What Gene said.
You cannot retorque a head in this situation. Once the gasket is
crushed, and leaks, there is no way it is serviceable. The lead is most
likely from your bearings and now that stuff has circulated through the
engine, oil cooler etc. Since the coach is new to you, I would guess that
you have no history on oil pressure so a drop in oil pressure caused by
premature bearing wear my not be noticable to you.
Unless you have no ring seal, leaded fuel is not the culprit. That's way
too much lead. Continuing to run the motor will only cause additional
damage. You know what you have to do.
Steve
GMCWS Amado
On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 3:54 PM, Kerry Pinkerton <Pinkertonk@mchsi.com>wrote:
>
>
> After I made the LazyDays rally, I changed the oil and just got around to
> sending the sample to BlackStone. They called today and there is an
> 'issue'.
>
> The sample shows 1.22% antifreeze and antifreeze can cause extra wear in
> the engine as evidenced by higher than expected metals content. About 4
> times normal for a 3000 mile change but I really don't know how long it had
> been or what happened with/by/to the PO. Also the lead was almost 20 times
> normal which COULD be caused by leaded gas. I just don't know. I've put
> some real gas in since I changed the oil but who knows what happened before.
>
> In retrospect, it was pretty stupid not to have immediately changed the
> oil when I got the coach...but it sure looked good.
>
> I've got about 1000 miles on the new oil and as soon as they send me a new
> test container, I'll pull a sample and retest. I have absolutely no idea
> if the PO accidentally poured some coolant in the oil or not. It wouldn't
> surprise me given some of the other things but I suspect the worst, a blown
> head gasket or small crack in a head. It runs too good to be a big problem
> and I'm not seeing any coolant loss now that I've got all my external leaks
> fixed.
>
> I'll probably have a better diagnosis in a few weeks. I suspect I'll be
> going through an engine this summer.... :(
>
> If I do have to go through the engine, I'll probably drop the whole front
> subframe. I've got a 1 ton front end on order and want to do the drive
> chain thing and install my 'new' 321 and it just seems easier to drop the
> whole thing and work on it on a table.
>
> Trying to be optimistic but 1.22% coolant just ain't good and there really
> isn't any other way for it to get in the oil other than some dumbass
> pouring coolant into the oil filler. I guess that is a possibility but I'm
> not counting on it.
> --
> Kerry Pinkerton
>
> North Alabama, near Huntsville,
>
> 77 Eleganza II, "The Lady", 403CI, also a 76 Eleganza being re-bodied as
> an Art Deco car hauler
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Take care,
Steve
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Disturbing news from Blackstone Labs [message #204243 is a reply to message #204182] |
Wed, 10 April 2013 07:46 |
Mr ERFisher
Messages: 7117
Registered: August 2005
Karma: 2
|
Senior Member |
|
|
will ask steve F. he is here
gene
On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 4:35 PM, Kerry Pinkerton <Pinkertonk@mchsi.com>wrote:
>
>
> Mr ERFisher wrote on Tue, 09 April 2013 18:27
> > ...it is a leak
> > head gasket
> > manifold
> > ...
>
>
> Assuming it is Gene and that would be the best case scenario...other than
> no antifreeze in the next sample...would I be better off dropping the pan
> and changing all the bearings anyway or just fix the lean and drive on?
> The motor is a 56K original 403 and runs really, really good.
>
> Will a leak down test show which cylinder has the problem?
>
> --
> Kerry Pinkerton
>
> North Alabama, near Huntsville,
>
> 77 Eleganza II, "The Lady", 403CI, also a 76 Eleganza being re-bodied as
> an Art Deco car hauler
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Disturbing news from Blackstone Labs [message #204253 is a reply to message #204182] |
Wed, 10 April 2013 09:00 |
 |
Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
|
Senior Member |
|
|
| Kerry Pinkerton wrote on Tue, 09 April 2013 19:35 |
Assuming it is Gene and that would be the best case scenario...other than no antifreeze in the next sample...would I be better off dropping the pan and changing all the bearings anyway or just fix the lean and drive on? The motor is a 56K original 403 and runs really, really good.
Will a leak down test show which cylinder has the problem?
|
Kerry,
A leakdown or other test will tell you nothing in this case. It takes 3~500psi nitrogen to test the combustion seals.
I do not know about the 403, but it is simply not possible to get the pan off a 455 with the transmission in place.
These sort of leaks are actually a relatively common and are always assembly joints. The truth about head gaskets is that all but a very few designs benefit from re-torquing. But please read the below carefully. Intake manifolds are a poor bet at best. In my history, I have seen factory assemblies leak at the valley.
It is a major league PITA, but re-torquing is a good thing. But it is best if you do it like this:
Get a bending beam type wrench (click and dial will not work). Clear everything away and put the wrench on a fastener so the location of the pointer is easily remembered. Pull on the wrench to the specified final value. (I don't know about the 403, but a 455 is 85#ft.) If the fastener moves, continue to final spec. If it does not, remember the location of the pointer relative to the engine and reverse until the fastener cracks loose. Now, pull to final spec and get an idea of the additional turn you put on the fastener. At full load, the fastener tension increase per degree of rotation is a very steep curve. Only a few degrees can result in a very significant increase in fastener tension. This can often solve low level leakage issues.
This cannot be done effectively with and anything that has a "torque and turn" or other "torque to yield" specification. (That requires the 5K$us wrench that we had in the lab at McCord/Payen/Federal Mogul.)
Why does this work?
All assemblies have creep (relaxation that occurs under load). Composite gaskets all have considerable creep. Even a solid steel joint has creep, but a lot less than a gasketed one. This process can restore the fastener tension to the design level and give an idea of the level of creep-loss recovered. It can do this without introducing any additional distortion as that has been accommodated by the assembly at this point.
This can also be done to the intake, but much greater care is required because of the lower fastener torque. It has been my experience that this is a lower likelihood as there is both less opportunity for this leak and lower level of stress on the intake manifold. (Also, good intake gaskets have "weep lines" included to prevent this.)
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
|
|
|
|
Goto Forum:
Current Time: Mon Nov 18 06:24:33 CST 2024
Total time taken to generate the page: 0.07131 seconds
|
GMCforum
Search
Help
Register
Login
Home
