Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] Using Public storage is risky for GMC technical info
| [GMCnet] Using Public storage is risky for GMC technical info [message #203463] |
Wed, 03 April 2013 06:09  |
Mr ERFisher
Messages: 7117
Registered: August 2005
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I want to start a new thread on this subject
I think it is time to cover this topic again
the only place "we" can own the GMC information is
bdub and the photo site. (send him money:>)
the "clouds" and other photo sites, own your information when you use them
and
they will remove your data without notice
JWID
gene
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: gene Fisher <mr.erfisher@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 4:07 AM
Subject: The risk of publishing GMC info on Social Media
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
I am not trying to create a controversy here
I am just showing some of the problems in saving 40 years of GMC technical
information.
I am going to use two of my friends for examples ( I hope they ok with this)
Bdub has the only site that has long-term life for GMC information.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/
Over the last 10 years, other sites, have come and gone, and we have lost
the information stored there (about 1/2 of my links are broken).
- Photo sites, are there to sell you something, and when they wish, they go
away, or sell you back your own data
- you have no control of how they control your data
EX-1
Gary Berry has many fine contributions over the years
HIs videos were famous, but now Utube has decided they no longer support
some of the old links like this one for GMCWS rally's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqK6xa2Sf00
His current information, is in photo bucket, which is allowing viewing only
one picture a a time
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b304/fulsgld/1973%20CanyonLands%20Stretch%20GMC/Burned%20Floor/HoleintheFloor1.jpg
while a GMCphoto store, presentation allows "smart devices" like
(pads,pods,phones,tablets), allows them to be seen "forever"
with a single finger swipe using modern technology.
http://goo.gl/a8c7Q
EX2
Social Media sites let data go away at their own schedule
1 last year Google discontinued one form of presentation, leaving the
GMCefi group to scramble, and archive their own data and move to a new
format.
2 Some clubs / orgnizations decide (on their own) to capture freely
donated information, and 10 years later, decide to sell it back for
members-only
like this classic document, once free, now only available to 1/8 th of the
GMC community
http://www.gmcmi.com/mem-bers/TechHandouts/Powermaster.pdf
3 Pictures with their technical documentation are not welcome on the Forum,
and are difficult to link to (but thanks Eugene for all of your work)
4 I recently captured this picture from the FACEBOOK gmc site I liked the
picture, but have not determined how to id it for the future - afraid it
will go away
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/famous-locations-with-gmc/p46188-momo-driller.html
5 Utube, I do not know how to archive their information, for the future. It
looks like they throw it away after about 2 years.
6 One ,regional, club, last year redesigned their web site, I begged them
to bring back the technical files ( most were irreplaceable and not
archived)
EX3
1 GMCphoto site is THE archive for GMC information
- members come and pass away :>(, but their , data, pictures, and manuals
remain,
Example,J Harper (gone for 2 years), (notice the last link to a GB topic,
no longer works;>(
http://gmcmotorhome.info/toad.html#vw
2 GMCphoto site is ours (thanks Bdub)
3 it does not work real well on PPPT devices, but I think it will.
4 Send money to GMCphoto site
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/
5 where will we archive now that DVDs are too small? (Apple just got rid of
them)
JWID
Just some of my feelings,
off to bed now
gene
--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
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| Re: [GMCnet] Using Public storage is risky for GMC technical info [message #203469 is a reply to message #203463] |
Wed, 03 April 2013 06:48  |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
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| Mr ERFisher wrote on Wed, 03 April 2013 06:09 |
...the only place "we" can own the GMC information is
bdub and the photo site. The "clouds" and other photo sites, own your information when you use them and they will remove your data without notice...
|
True Gene but even this has risks. What happens if, heaven forbid, Bdub gets hit by the proverbial beer truck? (actually knew a lady who survived getting hit by a beer truck on two separate occasions) Hopefully he has backups and other people have access to the admin passwords. I don't know. The same is true for the multitude of personal and regional club data. Again, hopefully it is backed up and there is an evolution plan in case something happens...and it will.
I do know and have seen it numerous times that the various 'free' hosting sites have a way of becoming 'not free' and or restricting assess to 'your'...now 'their' stuff. Early on Yahoo allowed photos posted inline and with Yahoo groups (egroups these days) you could create folders and do some pretty impressive work. Then they decided not to archive photos and the whole thing went to heck in a handbasket. For the metal shaping community, this led us to a forum structure because we literally OWNED it....just like GMCnet.com and the photo site. Even so, on older threads, there are many missing photos and broken links because the photos no longer exist on 'trust-me-with-your-stuff.com' or whatever. Even some tremendous resources that were someone's personal database have been lost when they passed away, went out of business, or whatever. Even sites like GMCEast would be tremendous loss to the community and if they are not being backed up and stored offline, they are at risk. We've got great content scattered on a multitude of locations.
The only way is to have the photos and text held within our forum structure. The previous metal shaping group I was a part of lost THREE FREAKING YEARS worth of posts and photos due to the admins incompetence and ineptitude. A bunch of us left that community and started over. The software we have (for AllMetalShaping.com...the new site)is Vbulletin and it has an integrated album setup similar to the Bdub site so the photos are forever part of the data base. We have a forum structure that allows folks to put their threads in the areas we defined (similar to what Bdub did for the photo site). Plus, there is a great search feature built in. Our Internet Service Provider (ISP)does daily backups and has redundant systems. In addition, I do regular backups and copy the data to a 1 terabyte hard drive on my home pc. If our data center (wherever it actually is) gets hit by a North Korean SCUD and the entire ISP and all their online/onsite and offline/offsite data and backups are lost, we can simply reinstall the Vbulletin software on another ISP, reload our data from the offline backup and be back up 100% in a matter of a couple days.
We've actually been thinking about this quite a lot because of the three guys who own our site (free site, no advertizing, no spam) one guy has young kids and has been overtaken by life, another is losing interest, and I'm wanting to do some extended motorhoming. As a result, we've been doing some secession planning to ensure that we can keep the spirit and goals of our site going.
One of the best seminars at Dothan was when Ken Henderson was called in to fill a spot at the last minute. Ken brought his laptop and we basically looked through is VERY organized folders at the photos and presentations he's saved over the years from emails and other sources. The problem is that is on HIS PC and not accessible to anyone else. And new guys (like me), don't have access to emails sent before we joined the cult. That is the dark side of mailing list.
ok, off my soapbox.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
[Updated on: Wed, 03 April 2013 07:06] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: [GMCnet] Using Public storage is risky for GMC technical info [message #203471 is a reply to message #203463] |
Wed, 03 April 2013 07:10 |
rcjordan
Messages: 1913
Registered: October 2012
Location: Elizabeth City, North Car...
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With the development of BestClassA.com, I have been grilled relentlessly (but cordially) by some of the clubs on the issue of succession. I'm not sure if I have any keystrokes left in me on this issue but -yes- it is a very real concern.
Let me cut to the chase; the only real answer for this is redundancy. Phred's poopsheets are not at risk. Just about everything else is.
SOLD 77 Royale Coachmen Side Dry Bath
76 Birchaven Coachmen Side Wet Bath
76 Eleganza
Elizabeth City, NC
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| Re: [GMCnet] Using Public storage is risky for GMC technical info [message #203527 is a reply to message #203463] |
Wed, 03 April 2013 12:39 |
rcjordan
Messages: 1913
Registered: October 2012
Location: Elizabeth City, North Car...
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Gene, since you opened the subject, I'll add that you are one of my concerns. Who is going to replace you? I've seen you go back in your "library stacks" countless times now and retrieve data. If I had a nickel for every time you've started a post with "Have you read here" I'd be able to pay JimB and have gas money left over.
THANKS!
SOLD 77 Royale Coachmen Side Dry Bath
76 Birchaven Coachmen Side Wet Bath
76 Eleganza
Elizabeth City, NC
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| Re: [GMCnet] Using Public storage is risky for GMC technical info [message #203588 is a reply to message #203527] |
Wed, 03 April 2013 22:51 |
Mr ERFisher
Messages: 7117
Registered: August 2005
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. Who is going to replace you?
I have a secret angel, watching my back
( dave mumert)
he has recovered me several times and even has a mirror web site that keeps
up with changes
I think Bdub does also. (another nice guy, among several, - Patrich,
Eugene, Mumert, )
all who do this , not for money or fame, but just to do good things,and
keep us alive and well on the net for the past 20 years ---thanks--
when I see great technical items posted on photo sites,clouds, and Google
(from Batman, and Pinkerton and others) it scares me that it will all be
gone some day.
don't get me wrong,
I love all the GMC posts, and I think the traffic is good, it is just that
the technical information, will be lost some day.
gene
I've seen you go back in your "library stacks" countless times now and
retrieve data. If I had a nickel for every time you've started a post with
"Have you read here" I'd be able to pay JimB and have gas money left over.
>
> THANKS!
> --
> 77 Royale Coachmen Side Dry Bath
> 76 Birchaven Coachmen Side Wet Bath
> http://www.gmcmotorhomesforsale.com/
> _______________________________________________
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--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
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| Re: [GMCnet] Using Public storage is risky for GMC technical info [message #203595 is a reply to message #203463] |
Thu, 04 April 2013 06:32 |
rcjordan
Messages: 1913
Registered: October 2012
Location: Elizabeth City, North Car...
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>lost
I agree. That's unsettling because I have a fair amount of experience in this (there was no ICANN or even registrar system when my first 4 domains went up) .
Let's just skip the nothing-bad-happens denial part and assume that it's all (the whole GMC confederacy) at risk. We can worry about the 'how' after we know what the 'what' is. Exactly what needs saving? What is referenced most?
SOLD 77 Royale Coachmen Side Dry Bath
76 Birchaven Coachmen Side Wet Bath
76 Eleganza
Elizabeth City, NC
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| Re: [GMCnet] Using Public storage is risky for GMC technical info [message #203611 is a reply to message #203607] |
Thu, 04 April 2013 09:51 |
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Gene,
Do you think about contacting the web guru at different sites when a link
changes?
As you know, the GMCMI site is undergoing massive revision. This isn't an
easy task at all, especially for doing it as a volunteer (of which you
know). In this case, Kim Weeks has taken on the project and also has a day
job. That means time is limited for her to make corrections to everything.
Besides that, at the request of the sponsoring organization and/or the
creator of the information, some things are "captured" (and let's not go
into that again, please).
One more reminder, links on the dynamic web aren't static objects. Things
are always subject to change. Besides, Jeremy reminded us that the word
"steal" is a powerful term. What is in the public domain isn't under
copyright or patent (there I go with that legal language).
By the way, my life is not the GMC nor is it our SOB. My life is about my
family and friends, who are animate creations of God, and not some inanimate
object that rolled off the line in Pontiac or wherever.
So, check with Kim Weeks about the broken link you're referencing.
Byron Songer
Louisville, KY
gene Fisher wrote:
> Exactly what needs saving? What is referenced most?
>
> I am a knowledgeable editor
> - I seldom create new information
> - I just collect and display links to GMC technical directions
> - So I am always linking to ,previous links of proven good technology
> - so it is soooo disappointing when the links go bad, or are stolen from
> the public domain
> - I spend 2 hours a day, trying to fix broken links
> - before Bdub, we were loosing whole archives of information
>
> "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
>
> like this link
> http://www.gmcmi.com/mem-bers/TechHandouts/Powermaster.pdf
>
> this is our life
> gene
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Byron Songer
Full-timing to enjoy the USA
Former owner but still an admirer
GMC paint schemes at -
http://www.songerconsulting.net
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| Re: [GMCnet] Using Public storage is risky for GMC technical info [message #203617 is a reply to message #203611] |
Thu, 04 April 2013 11:19 |
emerystora
Messages: 4442
Registered: January 2004
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On Apr 4, 2013, at 8:51 AM, Byron Songer wrote:
> Gene,
>
> Do you think about contacting the web guru at different sites when a link
> changes?
>
> As you know, the GMCMI site is undergoing massive revision. This isn't an
> easy task at all, especially for doing it as a volunteer (of which you
> know). In this case, Kim Weeks has taken on the project and also has a day
> job. That means time is limited for her to make corrections to everything.
> Besides that, at the request of the sponsoring organization and/or the
> creator of the information, some things are "captured" (and let's not go
> into that again, please).
>
> One more reminder, links on the dynamic web aren't static objects. Things
> are always subject to change. Besides, Jeremy reminded us that the word
> "steal" is a powerful term. What is in the public domain isn't under
> copyright or patent (there I go with that legal language).
>
> By the way, my life is not the GMC nor is it our SOB. My life is about my
> family and friends, who are animate creations of God, and not some inanimate
> object that rolled off the line in Pontiac or wherever.
>
> So, check with Kim Weeks about the broken link you're referencing.
>
> Byron Songer
> Louisville, KY
>
>
That is not a broken link. Just go to the GMCMI website and sign into the Members section and you can access that article.
Emery Stora
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| Re: [GMCnet] Using Public storage is risky for GMC technical info [message #203627 is a reply to message #203617] |
Thu, 04 April 2013 12:51 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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To me, the ISSUE is that the information is spread over a jillion sites. Yes there are some good indexes but none of them have everything and they are just indexes not repositories. The following is a good example:
| emerystora wrote on Thu, 04 April 2013 11:19 |
...That is not a broken link. Just go to the GMCMI website and sign into the Members section and you can access that article.
Emery Stora
|
Some great stuff is on the GMCMI site but only available to members of GMCMI. I don't know what percentage of the community are members but, as a member of GMCMI AND the greater community, I don't have any wish for the seminar presentation I gave be restricted to the members only GMCMI site. I'll be posting it on the Bdub photo site also.
Imo, the perfect solution would be if all the disparate data sources, regional clubs, international, personal sites, blogs, etc, would relinquish control for their data/information to be moved to a central integrated location in a structure like VBulletin (VBB) where the forum AND photos/albums are all in a single structure that can be backed up and restored by folks with administrative skills. And the pool of people who have the Information Technology skills to set up and operate a structured package like VBB (there are others) are many and cheap even if we had to hire/outsource the webmaster functions.
In all probability the GMC world is eventually going to suffer a huge data loss and come to this conclusion. I hope not but the odds favor it happening. The Metal Shaping community went through this exact thing and came to this exact conclusion.
There are many absolute wizards in this community that have their individual ways of archiving information and have done so for years. Ken Henderson (bless his heart) has not hung up on me when I call and I pester him probably way too much. Ken seems to know everything and where EVERYTHING is. Every time I talk to him, he points to this or that or the other that I didn't know existed. I hope he (and the others like him) live forever! Seriously!
Sorry to be so passionate about this but I've been down this road twice in my internet life, first with http://imperialclub.com/ and then with the metal shaping communities. I'd hate to see the same thing happen here. Btw, take a look at how http://imperialclub.com/ is organized. really logical and first rate.
Change is hard.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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| Re: [GMCnet] Using Public storage is risky for GMC technical info [message #203629 is a reply to message #203463] |
Thu, 04 April 2013 13:01 |
rcjordan
Messages: 1913
Registered: October 2012
Location: Elizabeth City, North Car...
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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>moved to a central integrated location
Nope. A centralized location won't save the confederacy. Been there, done that (with dozens of well-meaning public tourism agencies). A centralized location is great and I hope it can be done but if it's the information you want to protect then there has to be redundancy --back-up copies.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Using Public storage is risky for GMC technical info [message #203630 is a reply to message #203463] |
Thu, 04 April 2013 13:06 |
rallymaster
Messages: 662
Registered: February 2004
Location: North Plains, ORYGUN
Karma: -4
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Probably could, Emery, if it was still on the site. I went there a while
ago and there was no Powermaster listing.
No listings starting with P, even. Listings jump from Oil to Rear
Suspension.
RonC
On Thu, 04 Apr 2013 10:19:40 -0600 Emery Stora <emerystora@mac.com>
writes:
>
> On Apr 4, 2013, at 8:51 AM, Byron Songer wrote:
>
> > Gene,
> >
> > Do you think about contacting the web guru at different sites when
> a link
> > changes?
> >
> > As you know, the GMCMI site is undergoing massive revision. This
> isn't an
> > easy task at all, especially for doing it as a volunteer (of which
> you
> > know). In this case, Kim Weeks has taken on the project and also
> has a day
> > job. That means time is limited for her to make corrections to
> everything.
> > Besides that, at the request of the sponsoring organization and/or
> the
> > creator of the information, some things are "captured" (and let's
> not go
> > into that again, please).
> >
> > One more reminder, links on the dynamic web aren't static objects.
> Things
> > are always subject to change. Besides, Jeremy reminded us that the
> word
> > "steal" is a powerful term. What is in the public domain isn't
> under
> > copyright or patent (there I go with that legal language).
> >
> > By the way, my life is not the GMC nor is it our SOB. My life is
> about my
> > family and friends, who are animate creations of God, and not some
> inanimate
> > object that rolled off the line in Pontiac or wherever.
> >
> > So, check with Kim Weeks about the broken link you're
> referencing.
> >
> > Byron Songer
> > Louisville, KY
> >
> >
>
> That is not a broken link. Just go to the GMCMI website and sign
> into the Members section and you can access that article.
>
> Emery Stora
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
Ron & Linda Clark
1978 Eleganza II
North Plains, ORYGUN
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78 Eleganza II
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| Re: [GMCnet] Using Public storage is risky for GMC technical info [message #203631 is a reply to message #203630] |
Thu, 04 April 2013 13:14 |
Kimberlea Weeks
Messages: 675
Registered: July 2010
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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listed under "B" brakes
Kimberlea Weeks
VP Administration and Convention Manager
612.501.4600
GMC Motorhomes International
1402 So. Cage Blvd | Unit 273 | Pharr | TX 78577
Don't Miss the 2013 GMCMI Spring Convention!
Friday, March 22 to Thursday, March 28
National Peanut Festival Facilities | Dothan, Alabama
Don't Miss the 2013 GMCMI Fall Convention!
Friday, September 20 to Thursday, September 26
KOA Campground & Convention Center | Branson, Missouri
On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 1:06 PM, <rallymaster@juno.com> wrote:
> Probably could, Emery, if it was still on the site. I went there a while
> ago and there was no Powermaster listing.
> No listings starting with P, even. Listings jump from Oil to Rear
> Suspension.
>
> RonC
>
> On Thu, 04 Apr 2013 10:19:40 -0600 Emery Stora <emerystora@mac.com>
> writes:
> >
> > On Apr 4, 2013, at 8:51 AM, Byron Songer wrote:
> >
> > > Gene,
> > >
> > > Do you think about contacting the web guru at different sites when
> > a link
> > > changes?
> > >
> > > As you know, the GMCMI site is undergoing massive revision. This
> > isn't an
> > > easy task at all, especially for doing it as a volunteer (of which
> > you
> > > know). In this case, Kim Weeks has taken on the project and also
> > has a day
> > > job. That means time is limited for her to make corrections to
> > everything.
> > > Besides that, at the request of the sponsoring organization and/or
> > the
> > > creator of the information, some things are "captured" (and let's
> > not go
> > > into that again, please).
> > >
> > > One more reminder, links on the dynamic web aren't static objects.
> > Things
> > > are always subject to change. Besides, Jeremy reminded us that the
> > word
> > > "steal" is a powerful term. What is in the public domain isn't
> > under
> > > copyright or patent (there I go with that legal language).
> > >
> > > By the way, my life is not the GMC nor is it our SOB. My life is
> > about my
> > > family and friends, who are animate creations of God, and not some
> > inanimate
> > > object that rolled off the line in Pontiac or wherever.
> > >
> > > So, check with Kim Weeks about the broken link you're
> > referencing.
> > >
> > > Byron Songer
> > > Louisville, KY
> > >
> > >
> >
> > That is not a broken link. Just go to the GMCMI website and sign
> > into the Members section and you can access that article.
> >
> > Emery Stora
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> >
>
>
> Ron & Linda Clark
> 1978 Eleganza II
> North Plains, ORYGUN
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Using Public storage is risky for GMC technical info [message #203640 is a reply to message #203463] |
Thu, 04 April 2013 14:52 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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Senior Member |
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The long and short of it is this:
In order of decreasing security and reliability:
#1 BEST - GMCnet forum and photo site
#2 Next Best - Regional club and GMCMI sites
#3 neutral - Email...great for you but no one else benefits. How secure it is depends on your safe computing habits and processes.
#3 Best worst - personal web sites/blogs
#4 Worst by far - Any 'free or paid' photo storage site, photobucket.com, yahoo sites, AOL, whatever. ALL of them have changed their agreements with users over time. ALL! There is NOTHING that is free and sooner or later you are going to be asked to pay for it in some manner, either by being exposed to advertising, giving personal info, or restricting access until you do.
None of this addresses the ease of accessibility.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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| Re: [GMCnet] Using Public storage is risky for GMC technical info [message #203679 is a reply to message #203463] |
Fri, 05 April 2013 00:39 |
Chr$
Messages: 2690
Registered: January 2004
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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I'll beat this horse a bit.
1. Marry the Forum and the photo-site. Forum remains. but photos are now enabled (but some seem to be able to post them here) and take the current photosite archive and put it in an archive here. This forum software is waaaaay more powerful than it is used for. we use about 25% of it's capabilities. Trust me, I visit other forums that run on FUD and they are much more interactive. vBulletin is another very customizable forum package, and I know of a custom job for an auto make that is awesome. (www.mysporttrac.com) Simply the most comprehensive site for a SINGLE make of vehicle with a cult following like the GMC. That one includes an automatic member info list which could be the black list by simple tagging by the members, and the registry all in one. There is a cool projects page too. You can also search back to 2001 and all the photos are still there! go check it out.
2. Allow photos in the forum posts so this site is easy to use like EVERY OTHER SITE. Some folks here actually get this to work. I have not, perhaps there is a workaround or this is an email user embedding them in the email. Posting a message here and linking to a photo there is clunky, and many people cannot figure it out, even though it is simple to do. And if people are posting links to the photo site on the email list, then email users still have to go to the internet to see the photos. Save 'em a step, and save the OP's several.
3. Eliminate the email link (Sorry, but this is the major limiter and problem with topic organization). People learn to use new things every day. the forum is faster than email IMO, and easier to search, except when email postings break the threads up which ruins the topic, makes it frustrating to follow and is where I stop following and contributing usually.
4. Use the funds that pay for the photo site to pay for the new combined site. I sometimes donate, when I remember, I'd donate more.
5. Offer to host the various club sites on the server with links. Share advertising revenue, and get it all in one place. Many organizations link to their member's club's sites.
6. Add an off-topic forum. The off-topic forums on the other sites I visit are the most busy, and they give like minded individuals to talk about other things without cluttering up the usual topic threads, as some folks don't participate. Everyone is happy that way.
I'd have done this myself, but i'm not retired. This would be a full time job initially. and we don't need competing sites. "New" guys coming around and changing things doesn't fit well. But this topic comes up time and time again. I'm also no longer new since I came along in here 11 years ago. 
Facebook and Twitter are not a good place for this, easy as they are to use, and popular, they change, you cannot search and they don't thread well or index. They also sap commentary away from this, what I consider the main site. They compete.
I frequent two modeling forums, they compete, One gets more of my time than the other. It just happens to be the one I like better... and it is busier. Some people cross post on both, many don't bother. Hence competing sites don't work well together.
Many of the sites also have swap meets (like this one) and some have auctions. no ebay this way. Captive audience.
I'm ducking now.
-Chr$: Perpetual SmartAss
Scottsdale, AZ
77 Ex-Kingsley 455 SOLD!
2010 Nomad 24 Ft TT 390W PV W/MPPT, EV4010 and custom cargo door.
Photosite: Chrisc GMC:"It has Begun" TT: "The Other Woman"
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