Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] Boggie Steel Plate
| [GMCnet] Boggie Steel Plate [message #201803] |
Sat, 16 March 2013 12:27  |
Dwayne
Messages: 418
Registered: October 2007
Location: White Rock BC
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What is the best size for the steel plate to use to support the boggies
3/8" thickness by ______ wide X _________ Long.
Used to hold the boggies from dropping when you jack the frame up.
Regards
Dwayne Jacobson
White Rock
77 Kingsley
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Dwayne & Sharon Jacobson
White Rock, BC
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: [GMCnet] Boggie Steel Plate [message #201811 is a reply to message #201803] |
Sat, 16 March 2013 13:56  |
mickey szilagyi
Messages: 273
Registered: January 2013
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We just recently made a pair of bogie bars out of an old trailer leaf spring. We tried one out and it worked great. We made two as we are going to use them every time we work on the rear wheels and figure we will occasionally have both sides up at the same time. What a difference it made as when we first tried to get the wheels off the ground we stopped as we were concerned about how high up we were and the wheels weren't off the ground yet so we stopped. Using the bogie bar the wheels came off the ground almost right away. Don't forget to let the air out of the airbag system once you take the weight off the wheels a bit and re-inflate on the way back down. We're going to carry the bogie bars in the coach in case of a flat tire or we need to get the rear wheels up for whatever reason.
We found the size of the bars don't make that much of a difference as long as they are within a few parameters: 11 to 14 inches long (any longer and they become hard to get in place, too short and they may put stress on the bogies or the bars themselves), ours are 2 inches wide and 5/16 thick and work perfectly. 3 inches wide might be OK too but any wider, again, perhaps hard to get in place. We used plate from a leaf spring thinking the bars will tend to keep their shape better. It doesn't seem to matter that they are slightly bent to start with. We put them in place bowed down.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g6326-bogie-plates.html
Mickey
77 Kingsley, Lansing, MI
Mickey
1977 Kingsley, 403, Lansing, MI
[Updated on: Sun, 17 March 2013 08:28] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: [GMCnet] Boggie Steel Plate [message #201816 is a reply to message #201803] |
Sat, 16 March 2013 14:58 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
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I have an extra stick of 2 1/2 x 1/4 flat bar in the steel yard. If that is thick enough, I can shear it up in 12" lengths. I have a couple sticks of 1/2x3 but since I use that size in the business, I'd just have to replace it so it would be more expensive.
I'd expect it will easily hold up the bogies with the bag deflated. Given how easily my 1/2x3 bar bent, I'm thinking there is a LOT of leverage on the arm 2" from the bogie pin (Fulcrum)
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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| Re: [GMCnet] Boggie Steel Plate [message #201823 is a reply to message #201815] |
Sat, 16 March 2013 15:44 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
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Rob,
Tom Warner delivered blocks like that with his jack hooks 'way back when.
I was/am adamantly opposed to the use of them.
Remember that busted bogie from Skip Newhouse's coach (now yours?) ... I'm
not convinced that busted out bottom didn't come from mis-use of the Warner
Blocks. Think about how the arm support bars get bent if you forget to let
the air out of the bags on the way up. Now imagine concentrating that
force only a couple of inches from the bogie pins, as the blocks will do.
Can't be good for the pins, bushings, nor the relatively weak-in-that-area
bogie.
JMHO,
Ken H.
On Sat, Mar 16, 2013 at 3:48 PM, Robert Mueller wrote:
> Dwayne,
>
> Double Trouble's previous owner made up a couple of aluminum blocks to
> stick between the bogie and the bogie box. From memory
> they're about 2" x 2" x 3/4". If you can wait until next week I'll send
> you the exact dimensions.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dwayne Jacobson
>
> What is the best size for the steel plate to use to support the boggies
> 3/8" thickness by ______ wide X _________ Long.
> Used to hold the boggies from dropping when you jack the frame up.
> Regards
>
> Dwayne
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Boggie Steel Plate [message #201829 is a reply to message #201823] |
Sat, 16 March 2013 16:35 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Ken,
I agree 100% with you!
IIRC the blocks I have are deeply scarred probably from someone not letting the air out of the bags before jacking the coach up and
probably why one of Double Trouble's cracked and had to be replaced. However, if you slide the 3/8 bar in under the bogies I think
it contacts the bogie box in the same place the blocks do which makes me wonder why that doesn't crack the bogie box.
Do you think it might be because the flat bar will bend and absorb some of the force?
As I understand the rear suspension the shock absorbers limit the travel of the bogie arms. When the coach is jacked up they are
compressed. I checked the MM and didn't find any requirement to drop the air pressure in the air bags when jacking the rear so
apparently that's OK and not detrimental to the shocks?
I also wonder if making the bars out of leaf springs is a good idea in a 12" or less length as they would be stronger than mild
steel and might cause the same problems as the blocks.
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Ken Henderson
Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2013 7:45 AM
To: gmclist
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Boggie Steel Plate
Rob,
Tom Warner delivered blocks like that with his jack hooks 'way back when.
I was/am adamantly opposed to the use of them.
Remember that busted bogie from Skip Newhouse's coach (now yours?) ... I'm
not convinced that busted out bottom didn't come from mis-use of the Warner
Blocks. Think about how the arm support bars get bent if you forget to let
the air out of the bags on the way up. Now imagine concentrating that
force only a couple of inches from the bogie pins, as the blocks will do.
Can't be good for the pins, bushings, nor the relatively weak-in-that-area
bogie.
JMHO,
Ken H.
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Boggie Steel Plate [message #201838 is a reply to message #201829] |
Sat, 16 March 2013 17:54 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Rob,
I'm not at all confident that this analysis is correct, but it's what I've
based my opposition on all this time:
Let: Swing Arm Length to spindle = 18"
Swing Arm Down Force at spindle (due to air bag) = 1800#
Distance from Pivot Pin to Block Location = 3"
Distance from Pivot Pin to Bar End = 6"
Now: Torque about the Pin = 18" X 1800# = 32,400"#
Reaction at Block Location = 32,400"#/3"= 10,800#
Reaction at Bar End = 32,400"#/6"=5,400#
That's a significantly reduced load, even though still high enough to bend
the bar.
.
.
.
Unfortunately, that's a misleading analysis -- it really doesn't examine
the force at the Bogie for the Bar. To determine that, one must treat the
bar itself as another lever. Since that lever is 1:1 across its fulcrum at
the Bogie, it transfers an additional 5400# to the bogie. That puts us
right back to the 10,800#. :-(
Maybe.
Too pretty out for me to continue getting this headache!
OK, so I'll hush! But DO dump the air when jacking!
Ken H.
On Sat, Mar 16, 2013 at 5:39 PM, Robert Mueller wrote:
> Ken,
>
> I agree 100% with you!
>
> IIRC the blocks I have are deeply scarred probably from someone not
> letting the air out of the bags before jacking the coach up and
> probably why one of Double Trouble's cracked and had to be replaced.
> However, if you slide the 3/8 bar in under the bogies I think
> it contacts the bogie box in the same place the blocks do which makes me
> wonder why that doesn't crack the bogie box.
>
> Do you think it might be because the flat bar will bend and absorb some of
> the force?
>
> As I understand the rear suspension the shock absorbers limit the travel
> of the bogie arms. When the coach is jacked up they are
> compressed. I checked the MM and didn't find any requirement to drop the
> air pressure in the air bags when jacking the rear so
> apparently that's OK and not detrimental to the shocks?
>
> I also wonder if making the bars out of leaf springs is a good idea in a
> 12" or less length as they would be stronger than mild
> steel and might cause the same problems as the blocks.
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org [mailto:
> gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Ken Henderson
> Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2013 7:45 AM
> To: gmclist
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Boggie Steel Plate
>
> Rob,
>
> Tom Warner delivered blocks like that with his jack hooks 'way back when.
> I was/am adamantly opposed to the use of them.
>
> Remember that busted bogie from Skip Newhouse's coach (now yours?) ... I'm
> not convinced that busted out bottom didn't come from mis-use of the Warner
> Blocks. Think about how the arm support bars get bent if you forget to let
> the air out of the bags on the way up. Now imagine concentrating that
> force only a couple of inches from the bogie pins, as the blocks will do.
> Can't be good for the pins, bushings, nor the relatively weak-in-that-area
> bogie.
>
> JMHO,
>
>
> Ken H.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Boggie Steel Plate [message #201841 is a reply to message #201838] |
Sat, 16 March 2013 18:20 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Ken,
Thanks for taking the time to figger' out the forces in play. While your calculations may not be 100% correct they're in the ball
park and show the force involved.
I reckon the bottom lines are:
1) Slip the bar or block(s) between the bogie arm(s) and the bogie box
2) Engage a jack / jack hook in the bogie slot
3) Pump the jack up until it is supporting the weight of the coach
4) Let the pressure out of the air bag(s)
5) Pump up the jack until the coach reaches the desired height
Pretty simple eh?
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Henderson
Rob,
I'm not at all confident that this analysis is correct, but it's what I've
based my opposition on all this time:
Let: Swing Arm Length to spindle = 18"
Swing Arm Down Force at spindle (due to air bag) = 1800#
Distance from Pivot Pin to Block Location = 3"
Distance from Pivot Pin to Bar End = 6"
Now: Torque about the Pin = 18" X 1800# = 32,400"#
Reaction at Block Location = 32,400"#/3"= 10,800#
Reaction at Bar End = 32,400"#/6"=5,400#
That's a significantly reduced load, even though still high enough to bend
the bar.
.
.
.
Unfortunately, that's a misleading analysis -- it really doesn't examine
the force at the Bogie for the Bar. To determine that, one must treat the
bar itself as another lever. Since that lever is 1:1 across its fulcrum at
the Bogie, it transfers an additional 5400# to the bogie. That puts us
right back to the 10,800#. :-(
Maybe.
Too pretty out for me to continue getting this headache!
OK, so I'll hush! But DO dump the air when jacking!
Ken H.
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GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Boggie Steel Plate [message #201843 is a reply to message #201839] |
Sat, 16 March 2013 18:31 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Gary,
As long as you ALWAYS let the air out of the bags, you can use 'most
anything as lifters -- including pine blocks. Don't let the air out, and
you risk damage.
It's a real concern to me, yet I've forgotten on occasion; I'm just trying
to warn those who may not realize the potential for damage.
Ken H.
On Sat, Mar 16, 2013 at 7:06 PM, Gary Berry wrote:
> Ken;
>
> I don't agree at all. I have a set of the TW boggie aluminum plates
> and have had to use them a couple of times on the 76 Palm Beach
> (CamoGMC) that we use to have. Never had a problem using them as
> probably 99% of the other folks that got them (or the car leaf spring
> which I also have one). Just have to remember to let the air out of
> the bags as you start jacking up the coach. Haven't been able to use
> them on the Stretch as it has the bag extenders on it and they won't
> let the top of the boggies come together close enough to open up a
> space big enough on the bottom of the boggies to slide the plates in.
> Anyway, I have found them to be pretty useful in the past, especially
> with flat tires.
>
> --
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Boggie Steel Plate [message #201845 is a reply to message #201843] |
Sat, 16 March 2013 18:48 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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| Ken Henderson wrote on Sat, 16 March 2013 18:31 |
...just trying to warn those who may not realize the potential for damage.
|
I'll agree 100%. The forces involved to bend a 1/2"x3" piece of bar flat are pretty serious. No, check that, they are REALLY serious.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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| Re: [GMCnet] Boggie Steel Plate [message #201864 is a reply to message #201845] |
Sat, 16 March 2013 19:46 |
Dwayne
Messages: 418
Registered: October 2007
Location: White Rock BC
Karma: 0
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Hi Kerry
Well I called my son in law and gave him the dimensions and today he
brought me
4 bars - 2 at 1/2"x3"x14" and 2 at 1/2" x 2 1/2 x 14" I had him soften
the ends
I can fit either one in easily.
Just a Note for those making the change to rear disc brakes with the
reaction arm. Not sure what the make up is for the reaction arms using
the original
drum brakes. PLEASE check out your shocks because IT IS THE TIME to change
them when installing the Reaction Arm set-up.
I didn't do it that way, so today I got the 2 rear shocks installed - took
much longer than if I had done it at the time of disc install.
Dwayne Jacobson
White Rock
77 Kingsley
On Sat, Mar 16, 2013 at 4:48 PM, Kerry Pinkerton <Pinkertonk@mchsi.com>wrote:
>
>
> Ken Henderson wrote on Sat, 16 March 2013 18:31
> > ...just trying to warn those who may not realize the potential for
> damage.
>
>
> I'll agree 100%. The forces involved to bend a 1/2"x3" piece of bar flat
> are pretty serious. No, check that, they are REALLY serious.
> --
> Kerry Pinkerton
>
> North Alabama, near Huntsville,
>
> 77 Eleganza II, "The Lady", 403CI, also a 76 Eleganza being re-bodied as
> an Art Deco car hauler
> _______________________________________________
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--
Dwayne Jacobson
Haven Properties
Ph: 604-538-3823 Ext 22
Fax: 604-538-5845
Cell: 604-644-8090
dwayne@havenproperties.ca
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White Rock, BC
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: [GMCnet] Boggie Steel Plate [message #201882 is a reply to message #201829] |
Sat, 16 March 2013 23:09 |
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mike miller
Messages: 3576
Registered: February 2004
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon
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| Robert Mueller wrote on Sat, 16 March 2013 14:35 |
...
As I understand the rear suspension the shock absorbers limit the travel of the bogie arms. When the coach is jacked up they are compressed. I checked the MM and didn't find any requirement to drop the air pressure in the air bags when jacking the rear so
apparently that's OK and not detrimental to the shocks?
...
|
While there doesn't seem to any instructions to do so, not letting the air out of the bags WILL make the "yellow" shocks leak. The white KYB's do not seem to leak with abuse, but I doubt it is good on the shocks.
Let the pressure out when jacking.
Mike Miller -- Hillsboro, OR -- on the Black list
(#2)`78 23' Birchaven Rear Bath -- (#3)`77 23' Birchaven Side Bath
More Sidekicks than GMC's and a late model Malibu called 'Boo'
http://m000035.blogspot.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] Boggie Steel Plate [message #202036 is a reply to message #201803] |
Mon, 18 March 2013 12:23 |
Craig Lechowicz
Messages: 541
Registered: October 2006
Location: Waterford, MI
Karma: 0
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Rob,
I learned the hard way that not letting the air out of the airbags before jacking the rear causes the yellow shocks to leak. I still have to get a pair of KYB's from Jim K to fix them. I still haven't cooled down enough from what I consider a poorly designed shock to change them.
Craig Lechowicz
'77 Kingsley, Waterford, MI
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