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| Jeep Cherokee as a Toad [message #195671] |
Wed, 16 January 2013 09:05  |
habbyguy
Messages: 896
Registered: May 2012
Location: Mesa, AZ
Karma: 3
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I've been exploring the wonderful world of toads lately, trying to work out the best option for "on-site transportation". I've been very happy with the GMC's ability to go anywhere a car will, but some of the plans we have would benefit greatly by having transportation that doesn't require tearing down the campsite every time we need a quart of milk...
I'd seen a lot of Suzuki SUVs as toads - Samurais, Sidekicks and the equivalent Geo Tracker. When we lived in Australia, we had a Vitara JLX (equivalent to the Sidekick in the US), and it was a great little car. It had a full transfer case that could be switched to Neutral, would go almost anywhere (within reason), and got great gas mileage (high 20's).
Then I started doing the research, and it appears I'd only save about 400 pounds swapping my trusty old 1996 Jeep Cherokee (XJ) 4x4, partially because it's a "stripper" (manual crank windows, two door, manual transmission). Plus, I'm getting 23-24mpg with it, I know the mechanical state it's in (a very, very well-maintained 220,000 miles), and it's paid for (many, many years ago). It'll also easily hold a couple bikes inside, and can carry big parts if something breaks on the GMC.
http://www.habcycles.com/cherokee.jpg
I'm not concerned about braking, since I have a VIP tow brake system on the way (one was installed in my coach, and I found a new, uninstalled system on Ebay for a fraction of the new price so I'd get the "car parts").
So the questions:
1) Is the 3,050 pounds really much different than the 2,000 pounds of the lightest 4-seat toad I could possibly get?
2) Will there be any problems because my Jeep sits about 4" higher than stock (3" lift plus 31" tires)?
3) Is there really a big difference in tow bars? I can spend anywhere from $70 to $1000 for a tow bar, though I have to believe any of them are much more than up to the challenge of pulling a relatively light vehicle.
Mark Hickey
Mesa, AZ
1978 Royale Center Kitchen
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| Re: [GMCnet] Jeep Cherokee as a Toad [message #195675 is a reply to message #195671] |
Wed, 16 January 2013 09:52  |
emerystora
Messages: 4442
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 13
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I pulled a Jeep CJ-7 for a few years but then found out our Jeep Grand Cherokee was about 300 pounds lighter so I switched to that. It had been towed coast to coast across the country three times and also up and down the mountains as we lived in Santa Fe. Initially we had a 3.07 final drive but when Jim Kanomata developed his 3.55 : 1 drive I installed that. It definitely made it easier to tow. I later bought a Geo Tracker and the difference in weight improved my mileage about 5-10%. You can tow a Cherokee but the lighter the toad, the better.
I used a Roadmaster Falcon towbar which is a motorhome mounted bar to the receiver I then switched to a Roadmaster Sterling which is easier to release the arms when unhooking.
You can sometimes find some good buys on EBay. I bought my Sterling there and the sold my Falcon there for more than I paid for the Sterling.
Emery Stora
77 Kingsley
Frederick, CO
On Jan 16, 2013, at 10:05 AM, Mark <mark@habcycles.com> wrote:
>
>
> I've been exploring the wonderful world of toads lately, trying to work out the best option for "on-site transportation". I've been very happy with the GMC's ability to go anywhere a car will, but some of the plans we have would benefit greatly by having transportation that doesn't require tearing down the campsite every time we need a quart of milk...
>
> I'd seen a lot of Suzuki SUVs as toads - Samurais, Sidekicks and the equivalent Geo Tracker. When we lived in Australia, we had a Vitara JLX (equivalent to the Sidekick in the US), and it was a great little car. It had a full transfer case that could be switched to Neutral, would go almost anywhere (within reason), and got great gas mileage (high 20's).
>
> Then I started doing the research, and it appears I'd only save about 400 pounds swapping my trusty old 1996 Jeep Cherokee (XJ) 4x4, partially because it's a "stripper" (manual crank windows, two door, manual transmission). Plus, I'm getting 23-24mpg with it, I know the mechanical state it's in (a very, very well-maintained 220,000 miles), and it's paid for (many, many years ago). It'll also easily hold a couple bikes inside, and can carry big parts if something breaks on the GMC.
>
> http://www.habcycles.com/cherokee.jpg
>
> I'm not concerned about braking, since I have a VIP tow brake system on the way (one was installed in my coach, and I found a new, uninstalled system on Ebay for a fraction of the new price so I'd get the "car parts").
>
> So the questions:
> 1) Is the 3,050 pounds really much different than the 2,000 pounds of the lightest 4-seat toad I could possibly get?
> 2) Will there be any problems because my Jeep sits about 4" higher than stock (3" lift plus 31" tires)?
> 3) Is there really a big difference in tow bars? I can spend anywhere from $70 to $1000 for a tow bar, though I have to believe any of them are much more than up to the challenge of pulling a relatively light vehicle.
> --
> Mark Hickey
> Mesa, AZ
> 1978 Royale Center Kitchen
> _______________________________________________
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| Re: Jeep Cherokee as a Toad [message #195676 is a reply to message #195671] |
Wed, 16 January 2013 10:00 |
habbyguy
Messages: 896
Registered: May 2012
Location: Mesa, AZ
Karma: 3
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Senior Member |
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Dan, thanks for the input. My coach's front end is pretty good, but I do need a new relay arm (see separate thread at http://gmc.mybirdfeeder.net/GMCforum/index.php?t=msg&th=24732&start=0&rid=2480).
The PO mentioned that he had some issues with his toad "wagging" the coach, particularly when changing lanes. His solution was to install a couple really heavy-duty sway bars on the bogies (don't know if it helped that, but the coach corners really flat now). I suspect his real problem was the considerable amount of play in the steering box (2.5" of steering wheel movement before the box did anything), which I've fixed. I also put on a set of Straight Track bogie devices to keep the front bogies from trying to rear-steer the coach (and they work great). I'll be replacing the worn relay arm soon, and that should have me back to 95%.
Some day I might find something REALLY light to use as a toad (a Renault 2CV or an original Mini Cooper?) but for now the utility of the (paid for, sitting in my driveway) Jeep is hard to beat.
On a slightly related note - I'm taking it in for paint Monday (the AZ sun is really, really hard on paint). I'm planning to have it painted the original dark green metallic, but my wife is pressuring me to paint it to "match" the coach, which in this case would mean silver (not the exotic striped paint job the coach has... http://www.habcycles.com/GMC2.jpg ) Of course, that would mean having to look at dark green every time I open a door, hatch or hood (which is seriously cheeseball, IMHO). Does anyone really think it's necessary for the toad to be "color-coordinated" with the coach?
Mark Hickey
Mesa, AZ
1978 Royale Center Kitchen
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| Re: Jeep Cherokee as a Toad [message #195680 is a reply to message #195671] |
Wed, 16 January 2013 10:25 |
habbyguy
Messages: 896
Registered: May 2012
Location: Mesa, AZ
Karma: 3
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Senior Member |
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Emery, that's great input. I wonder which model Grand Cherokee you had? I had a '99 (first year of the WJ series) which supposedly weighed 3,970 pounds (vs. my XJ Cherokee's relatively svelte 3,050 pounds). I looked up the curb weight for a 4x4 Suzuki Sidekick and it's listed at 2,762, so I'm guessing that - weight-wise, at least - my Cherokee would tow a lot more like your old Suzuki than your Jeep.
My coach has a Cinnabar 3.42 "rear end" (always sounds wrong when referring to a FWD vehicle), and I'm not too worried about power - at least until I get to high altitude, steep climbs (and will be installing a fuel injection system which should help that a lot).
I'd love some input on the tow bar conundrum... do the telescoping tow bars just make it easier to hitch/unhitch the toad, or do they act as shock absorbers when towing? Do they do anything different from a basic tow bar in terms of just pulling the vehicle down the road?
Mark Hickey
Mesa, AZ
1978 Royale Center Kitchen
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| Re: Jeep Cherokee as a Toad [message #195682 is a reply to message #195676] |
Wed, 16 January 2013 10:39 |
Carl S.
Messages: 4186
Registered: January 2009
Location: Tucson, AZ.
Karma: 13
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Senior Member |
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Mark,
I have an '87 XJ Cherokee Laredo, loaded four door. It is lifted about 4-1/4 inches and has 31" tires on it. I have had it weighed and it weighs in at about 3,850 lbs, so it is quite a bit heavier than yours. That said, I would check the weight on yours, it might be heavier than you think it is.
I put a slightly modified tow plate on the front that I got from a friend for free, along with a Craig's list tow bar, and towed it to Quartzsite, from Tucson, and back one time. It was not a problem, but that route is mostly flat. We have since invested in an '03 Chevy Tracker, four door, that weighs in at about 3,000 lbs (I'm not sure about that as I've never had it weighed) and we tow it all over the place.
IF your XJ weighs what you say it does, or even 500# more, I wouldn't think you would have any issues towing it. The 3.07 final drive (what our coach had when we towed the Cherokee) is a little high, and your transmission will thank you if you changed it out to a 3.70 (what we have now).
Here are some pics:
The XJ:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/towing-etc/p34786-towing.html
The Tracker:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/towing-etc/p37214-tracker-towing-set-up.html
My other Jeep:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/towing-etc/p34785-towing.html
Carl Stouffer
'75 ex Palm Beach
Tucson, AZ.
Chuck Aulgur Reaction Arm Disc Brakes, Quadrabags, 3.70 LSD final drive, Lenzi knuckles/hubs, Dodge Truck 16" X 8" front wheels, Rear American Eagles, Solar battery charging. GMCSJ and GMCMI member
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| Re: Jeep Cherokee as a Toad [message #195683 is a reply to message #195682] |
Wed, 16 January 2013 10:41 |
Carl S.
Messages: 4186
Registered: January 2009
Location: Tucson, AZ.
Karma: 13
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Senior Member |
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We didn't plan it this way, but the silver Tracker pretty much matches the silver stripes on the coach. 
Carl Stouffer
'75 ex Palm Beach
Tucson, AZ.
Chuck Aulgur Reaction Arm Disc Brakes, Quadrabags, 3.70 LSD final drive, Lenzi knuckles/hubs, Dodge Truck 16" X 8" front wheels, Rear American Eagles, Solar battery charging. GMCSJ and GMCMI member
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| Re: Jeep Cherokee as a Toad [message #195684 is a reply to message #195671] |
Wed, 16 January 2013 10:46 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
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I'd put stock wheels and tires back on the XJ to save weight and drag and give it a try for a while. Paid for and a great vehicle.
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: [GMCnet] Jeep Cherokee as a Toad [message #195689 is a reply to message #195680] |
Wed, 16 January 2013 11:11 |
emerystora
Messages: 4442
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 13
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Senior Member |
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Hi Mark
My grand Cherokee was a 1993 with a V-8 . I don't remember the weight.
The towbars that mount on the motorhome do not have any shocks in them. The telescoping arms just make it much easier to hook up. This type of mount also gives more stability than the one with a ball at the rear of the motorhome. Them eliminate any tendency to sway.
Emery Stora
On Jan 16, 2013, at 11:25 AM, Mark <mark@habcycles.com> wrote:
>
>
> Emery, that's great input. I wonder which model Grand Cherokee you had? I had a '99 (first year of the WJ series) which supposedly weighed 3,970 pounds (vs. my XJ Cherokee's relatively svelte 3,050 pounds). I looked up the curb weight for a 4x4 Suzuki Sidekick and it's listed at 2,762, so I'm guessing that - weight-wise, at least - my Cherokee would tow a lot more like your old Suzuki than your Jeep.
>
> My coach has a Cinnabar 3.42 "rear end" (always sounds wrong when referring to a FWD vehicle), and I'm not too worried about power - at least until I get to high altitude, steep climbs (and will be installing a fuel injection system which should help that a lot).
>
> I'd love some input on the tow bar conundrum... do the telescoping tow bars just make it easier to hitch/unhitch the toad, or do they act as shock absorbers when towing? Do they do anything different from a basic tow bar in terms of just pulling the vehicle down the road?
>
> --
> Mark Hickey
> Mesa, AZ
> 1978 Royale Center Kitchen
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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| Re: Jeep Cherokee as a Toad [message #195691 is a reply to message #195671] |
Wed, 16 January 2013 11:50 |
gbarrow2
Messages: 765
Registered: February 2004
Location: Lake Almanor, Ca./ Red Bl...
Karma: 3
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Senior Member |
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Mark,
I tow a gray 1993 4dr 4X4 Cherokee with automatic and stock wheels and no lift. Must be about the same weight as yours. No issues in several years and many miles of towing.
I use a cheap basic Reese Tow Champ tow bar that I previously used to tow my Porche 914.
The tow bar doesn't stow on the GMC but it would fit in the trunk of the Porche.
When on the road with the Jeep and not connected to the coach I stow the bar by swiveling it up against the grille and secure it with a stiff bungee.
I also previously towed a VW bug with the standard VW tow bar.
After getting the Jeep I switched from the stock 3:07 to the 3:70 final drive. Much better with the greater weight of the Jeep: especially since I drive in the mountains a lot.
I didn't feel the need for supplemental braking with the VW and Porche. I would like to have it for the Jeep. I bought a US Gear system that Jim Kanamota uses but have not installed it yet.
Jeep is the best allaround tow vehicle-4 seats for extra passengers- extra space in back to haul your toys- 4X4 and best of all for my wife A/C.
Like Emory, my coach is tan- the Porche is white- the VW was blue and the Jeep is gray. No body cares.
Gene Barrow
Lake Almanor, Ca.
1976 Palm Beach
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| Re: Jeep Cherokee as a Toad [message #195693 is a reply to message #195684] |
Wed, 16 January 2013 12:18 |
habbyguy
Messages: 896
Registered: May 2012
Location: Mesa, AZ
Karma: 3
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Senior Member |
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| JohnL455 wrote on Wed, 16 January 2013 09:46 |
I'd put stock wheels and tires back on the XJ to save weight and drag and give it a try for a while. Paid for and a great vehicle.
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Ack... the poor thing was just not right with those itty bitty little steel wheels and tires sitting a few inches inside the flares, and no serious ground clearance. I use my XJ to go "dumb places", such as rescue missions for the Toyota Land Cruisers that break in the mountains of Colorado at the place my son worked. 
I don't doubt that my XJ is a bit heavier than the stock weight, though I don't think I've added much weight (went from steel to aluminum wheels, but added 3" of lift and 31" tires, which I suspect is pretty close to a wash weight-wise). It's about as light as a 6-cylinder XJ can be with its manual tranny, crank up windows and two door body. I suspect that's why I'm getting the kind of gas mileage I am (well, that and 3.07 gears, upgraded fuel injectors, a header, etc.).
Today my wife helpfully suggested that I didn't have to paint it silver - I could paint it the color of the "purple" stripe on my coach... 
I'm not sure the woods would let me in with a Jeep that color!
Mark Hickey
Mesa, AZ
1978 Royale Center Kitchen
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| Re: Jeep Cherokee as a Toad [message #195702 is a reply to message #195700] |
Wed, 16 January 2013 13:17 |
rcjordan
Messages: 1913
Registered: October 2012
Location: Elizabeth City, North Car...
Karma: 1
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Blue Ox seems to own the market in tow bars right now. There are a fair number of them that come up on Craigslist in Arizona. Jeep baseplates are listed fairly often, too.
SOLD 77 Royale Coachmen Side Dry Bath
76 Birchaven Coachmen Side Wet Bath
76 Eleganza
Elizabeth City, NC
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| Re: Jeep Cherokee as a Toad [message #195704 is a reply to message #195700] |
Wed, 16 January 2013 13:36 |
Carl S.
Messages: 4186
Registered: January 2009
Location: Tucson, AZ.
Karma: 13
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Senior Member |
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Mark,
Try Quadratec:
http://www.quadratec.com/products/76045_801.htm
Carl Stouffer
'75 ex Palm Beach
Tucson, AZ.
Chuck Aulgur Reaction Arm Disc Brakes, Quadrabags, 3.70 LSD final drive, Lenzi knuckles/hubs, Dodge Truck 16" X 8" front wheels, Rear American Eagles, Solar battery charging. GMCSJ and GMCMI member
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| Re: Jeep Cherokee as a Toad [message #195706 is a reply to message #195671] |
Wed, 16 January 2013 14:08 |
habbyguy
Messages: 896
Registered: May 2012
Location: Mesa, AZ
Karma: 3
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Senior Member |
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Carl, thanks for that! I like the concept of having a spare 2" receiver on the front, since I could always use that to mount a removable winch. My XJ doesn't have tow hooks now, but I see they sell mounts for under $50 so the end cost would still be a whole lot less than a similar setup (without a 2" receiver) from one of the other manufacturers.
Mark Hickey
Mesa, AZ
1978 Royale Center Kitchen
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| Re: Jeep Cherokee as a Toad [message #195713 is a reply to message #195706] |
Wed, 16 January 2013 16:02 |
Carl S.
Messages: 4186
Registered: January 2009
Location: Tucson, AZ.
Karma: 13
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Senior Member |
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| habbyguy wrote on Wed, 16 January 2013 13:08 |
Carl, thanks for that! I like the concept of having a spare 2" receiver on the front, since I could always use that to mount a removable winch. My XJ doesn't have tow hooks now, but I see they sell mounts for under $50 so the end cost would still be a whole lot less than a similar setup (without a 2" receiver) from one of the other manufacturers.
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I had to buy and install tow hook brackets on mine as well. The free base plate I got did not have the receiver on it but I welded two square tube 'boxes' onto it for tow bar attachment points. I also was able to pick up a "Brake Buddy", second hand, for only $350.00. We have used it in the tracker as well and it has worked as advertized for over three years.
I also removed the front air dam and skid plate in order to install the base plate. I plan to reinstall the skid plate sometime, but as you can see, it has not been a priority. I can take some pics if it would help.
Carl Stouffer
'75 ex Palm Beach
Tucson, AZ.
Chuck Aulgur Reaction Arm Disc Brakes, Quadrabags, 3.70 LSD final drive, Lenzi knuckles/hubs, Dodge Truck 16" X 8" front wheels, Rear American Eagles, Solar battery charging. GMCSJ and GMCMI member
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| Re: Jeep Cherokee as a Toad [message #195714 is a reply to message #195671] |
Wed, 16 January 2013 16:34 |
habbyguy
Messages: 896
Registered: May 2012
Location: Mesa, AZ
Karma: 3
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Senior Member |
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This front receiver might be a good option as well. It looks mechanically more robust than the Quadratec, and doesn't require the tow hook mounts (which my XJ doesn't have, sadly). I'm thinking I could either buy a universal tow bar and bolt the supplied mounts directly to the receiver, or I could buy a couple of the custom bolt-on adapters for the common tow bars attachments (though probably not the Blue Ox bar-style quick release attachment). http://www.carid.com/1996-jeep-cherokee-trailer-hitches/curt-front-trailer-hitches-1642221.html
Here's an example of the universal tow bar, which isn't nearly as slick as the Blue Ox bar, but is a whole lot cheaper... http://www.miniurl.com/s/3P6 Or I could just hold out for the right used Blue Ox or other "quality" tow bar.
And here's a typical bolt-on adapter that should be easy enough to fit to the receiver: http://www.quadratec.com/products/12065_3023.htm
That (unless I'm missing something) would give me a solid tow bar mount, plus a front receiver that I could use for a winch, cargo carrier, or bike carrier - for about $210 all-up. Not too bad... or for about that I could bolt the generic tow bar directly to the receiver and be done, too...
Mark Hickey
Mesa, AZ
1978 Royale Center Kitchen
[Updated on: Wed, 16 January 2013 16:36] Report message to a moderator |
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