Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] One ton front end
| [GMCnet] One ton front end [message #195431] |
Sat, 12 January 2013 22:14  |
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In light of the discussions that were going on here last week, I thought
that I would relate my experiences with t he new 1 ton front end. Mine
was installed several months ago and after it was done, while I liked
the improved braking and tracking, I had MASSIVE torque steer problems.
First, min steering box had a bunch of vertical play on the input shaft,
so we replaced the steering box with a BRAND NEW (not rebuilt, NOS, but
brand-spanking-new) box. That helped (a little), but my coach would
still "jump" about 4" to the left when accelerating, the tires would
break loose and squeal and I would get wheel hop crossing an
intersection with a crowned road.
Back to Manny's (could NOT make it up his hill, large clouds of tire
smoke). Manny VERY carefully made sure that the steering box was
properly centered, but more importantly, he replaced the tie rod ends
and mad sure that the tie-rod end clamps were VERY tight.
On our last outing (49ers Rally at Casa de Fruta), I had a long stretch
of road all to myself, so I did a WOT acceleration from dead start with
my hands OFF the steering wheel, the coach did nothing but go straight.
In the 10 years that I have owned this coach, this is the very first
time that I have had zero torque steer!
The moral of the story is....while the 1 ton front end may be (and
probably is) the best thing since bottled beer, IF you have other
pre-existing conditions (like bad tie-rod ends) it will exacerbate the
problems. It should not be looked at as and end in itself, but as a
part of whole front end assembly. If there are other issues, it WILL
help you find them!
As I said, I always had a little torque steer and just wrote it off to a
high-torque engine in a front wheel drive vehicle. I now know better and
am VERY happy with the way that my coach now steers and handles.
Thanks to Manny for the front end work, Jim and Nick at Applied for
fixing my bent bogie arms to get the rear end under control. My coach is
now an easy one-hand drive.
Terry Taylor
74 Eleganza SE
San Lorenzo, CA
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Terry Taylor
'74 ex-Eleganza SE
San Lorenzo, CA
http://www.n6mon.org
http://dldesignstore.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] One Ton Front End [message #338058 is a reply to message #338036] |
Sun, 21 October 2018 18:31  |
roy1
Messages: 2126
Registered: July 2004
Location: Minden nevada
Karma: 6
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The only negative I see is the spacers moving the wheels out to clear the calipers. If we could use a taller rim that could clear the caliper in my opinion it would be better for handling.
Roy Keen
Minden,NV
76 X Glenbrook
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| Re: [GMCnet] One Ton Front End [message #338059 is a reply to message #338058] |
Sun, 21 October 2018 18:46 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Roy,
The spacers are used by GM on their 1 Ton units. That is not a negative,
it's the geometry that is a concern that people who understand front end
geometry are questioning.
Bob D had several racers drive the unit with and w/o the suspension on a
track, result was that they felt it did not handle very well .
On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 4:32 PM roy keen wrote:
> The only negative I see is the spacers moving the wheels out to clear the
> calipers. If we could use a taller rim that could clear the caliper in my
> opinion it would be better for handling.
> --
> Roy Keen
> Minden,NV
> 76 X Glenbrook
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
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--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| [GMCnet] One Ton Front End. Is it an upgrade. [message #338060 is a reply to message #338036] |
Sun, 21 October 2018 21:43 |
BobDunahugh
Messages: 2465
Registered: October 2010
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA
Karma: 11
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Senior Member |
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I don't see it as one. And there are other well respected vendors that agree. I'm not saying that it's all bad. I can just say that I'll never have one of the one ton kits in a GMC that I'll own. As to what you may feel. Do what makes you comfortable.
All manufactures DO NOT, way over design suspention components as was done in days gone by. Our knuckle were designed for a car that weighed in the 5000 pound range. But due to their design parameters at that time of over building. These units have served us well for 41 to 46 years on a motor home that comes in at up to 12,000 lbs. For many. Well over 100,000 miles. The bearings haven't been the issue. It's been how the knuckle was machined out to hold the bearing in place. The machining process left the bearing mounting surface with valleys, and ridges. The ridges get compressed. Then the bearing looses it's interference fit. Dave Linzie, and Jim K can solve that issue at a reasonable price. With the one ton. The tire of the one ton isn't centered properly over the bearing center line as GM designed for it's one ton 4 wheel drive trucks. Then there's a deviation from standard suspention norms. With the upper, and lower A frames not being parallel with the one ton. There has been info put out that parts for our original suspention isn't available anymore. I haven't found that to be the case. The GMC that I rebuilt 3 years ago. It will last another 40 years for the next owner if properly maintained. Bob Dunahugh
________________________________
From: Bob Dunahugh
Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2018 1:11 AM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: RE: One Ton Front End
The one ton is a cheep way to go if about every part is bad up front. That's why I put one in a friends GMC when they first came out. Now I regret putting it in. Giving serious though of putting it back to original. I just don't see a good reason to put one in. Bob Dunahugh
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| Re: [GMCnet] One Ton Front End [message #338061 is a reply to message #338038] |
Mon, 22 October 2018 07:00 |
lqqkatjon
Messages: 2324
Registered: October 2010
Location: St. Cloud, MN
Karma: 5
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Senior Member |
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isn't it true that the axles are specifically built for the 1 ton? and you only have a couple venders that they are available from?
isn't that the same for the A-arms?
With all the coaches out there I just don't see the 1 ton as being a replacement for parts availability. If you are trying to save a buck on a total front end rebuild, maybe it is a way to go. I still do the math in my head, and still seem to think I can replace/rebuild OEM for OEM for less then a 1 ton kit.
It is an option, but I just can't see it as the only option as there are always trade off's.
Mr ERFisher wrote on Sun, 21 October 2018 04:52I see the one ton as the only hope for the future
- can no longer buy new parts for the oem front ends
- can no longer buy oem axles
- the separate bearing packs are available and plentiful
- the 12 inch disks supply good brakes
This makes the 1 ton the ONLY hope for the future of my 3 gmcs
On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 2:34 AM wrote:
> why do you regret putting the 1 ton front end on your friends coach?
>
> ronc
>
> On Sun, 21 Oct 2018 06:11:22 +0000 Bob Dunahugh
> writes:
>> The one ton is a cheep way to go if about every part is bad up front.
>> That's why I put one in a friends GMC when they first came out. Now
>> I regret putting it in. Giving serious though of putting it back to
>> original. I just don't see a good reason to put one in. Bob
>> Dunahugh
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
>
>
> Ron & Linda Clark
> North Plains, ORYGUN
> 1978 Eleganza II
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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>
--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
"Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
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Jon Roche
75 palm beach
EBL EFI, manny headers, Micro Level, rebuilt most of coach now.
St. Cloud, MN
http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/
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| Re: [GMCnet] One Ton Front End [message #338063 is a reply to message #338061] |
Mon, 22 October 2018 10:04 |
Mr ERFisher
Messages: 7117
Registered: August 2005
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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http://www.machinesoflovinggrace.net/gmc/frontend/
😀
On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 5:04 AM Jon Roche wrote:
> isn't it true that the axles are specifically built for the 1 ton? and you
> only have a couple venders that they are available from?
> isn't that the same for the A-arms?
>
> With all the coaches out there I just don't see the 1 ton as being a
> replacement for parts availability. If you are trying to save a buck on a
> total
> front end rebuild, maybe it is a way to go. I still do the math in my
> head, and still seem to think I can replace/rebuild OEM for OEM for less
> then
> a 1 ton kit.
>
> It is an option, but I just can't see it as the only option as there are
> always trade off's.
>
>
>
>
> Mr ERFisher wrote on Sun, 21 October 2018 04:52
>> I see the one ton as the only hope for the future
>> - can no longer buy new parts for the oem front ends
>> - can no longer buy oem axles
>> - the separate bearing packs are available and plentiful
>> - the 12 inch disks supply good brakes
>>
>> This makes the 1 ton the ONLY hope for the future of my 3 gmcs
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 2:34 AM wrote:
>>
>>> why do you regret putting the 1 ton front end on your friends coach?
>>>
>>> ronc
>>>
>>> On Sun, 21 Oct 2018 06:11:22 +0000 Bob Dunahugh
>>> writes:
>>>> The one ton is a cheep way to go if about every part is bad up front.
>>>> That's why I put one in a friends GMC when they first came out. Now
>>>> I regret putting it in. Giving serious though of putting it back to
>>>> original. I just don't see a good reason to put one in. Bob
>>>> Dunahugh
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Ron & Linda Clark
>>> North Plains, ORYGUN
>>> 1978 Eleganza II
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>>
>> --
>> Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
>> "Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
>> -------
>> http://gmcmotorhome.info/
>> Alternator Protection Cable
>> http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
>
> --
> Jon Roche
> 75 palm beach
> St. Cloud, MN
> http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
_______________________________________________
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| Re: [GMCnet] One Ton Front End [message #338065 is a reply to message #338063] |
Mon, 22 October 2018 10:28 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Parts for the originals are still available, but the suppliers need to join
forces and get parts available when they get scarce.
On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 8:05 AM gene Fisher wrote:
> http://www.machinesoflovinggrace.net/gmc/frontend/
>
> 😀
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 5:04 AM Jon Roche wrote:
>
>> isn't it true that the axles are specifically built for the 1 ton? and
> you
>> only have a couple venders that they are available from?
>> isn't that the same for the A-arms?
>>
>> With all the coaches out there I just don't see the 1 ton as being a
>> replacement for parts availability. If you are trying to save a buck
> on a
>> total
>> front end rebuild, maybe it is a way to go. I still do the math in my
>> head, and still seem to think I can replace/rebuild OEM for OEM for less
>> then
>> a 1 ton kit.
>>
>> It is an option, but I just can't see it as the only option as there are
>> always trade off's.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Mr ERFisher wrote on Sun, 21 October 2018 04:52
>>> I see the one ton as the only hope for the future
>>> - can no longer buy new parts for the oem front ends
>>> - can no longer buy oem axles
>>> - the separate bearing packs are available and plentiful
>>> - the 12 inch disks supply good brakes
>>>
>>> This makes the 1 ton the ONLY hope for the future of my 3 gmcs
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 2:34 AM wrote:
>>>
>>>> why do you regret putting the 1 ton front end on your friends coach?
>>>>
>>>> ronc
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, 21 Oct 2018 06:11:22 +0000 Bob Dunahugh
>>>> writes:
>>>> > The one ton is a cheep way to go if about every part is bad up
> front.
>>>> > That's why I put one in a friends GMC when they first came out. Now
>>>> > I regret putting it in. Giving serious though of putting it back to
>>>> > original. I just don't see a good reason to put one in. Bob
>>>> > Dunahugh
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > GMCnet mailing list
>>>> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>>> > http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ron & Linda Clark
>>>> North Plains, ORYGUN
>>>> 1978 Eleganza II
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>>>
>>> --
>>> Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
>>> "Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
>>> -------
>>> http://gmcmotorhome.info/
>>> Alternator Protection Cable
>>> http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
>>
>> --
>> Jon Roche
>> 75 palm beach
>> St. Cloud, MN
>> http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
> --
> Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
> “Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
> -------
> http://gmcmotorhome.info/
> Alternator Protection Cable
> http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: [GMCnet] One Ton Front End [message #338066 is a reply to message #338061] |
Mon, 22 October 2018 10:43 |
Richard Denney
Messages: 920
Registered: April 2010
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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The CV joints and boots are commonly available, as are hubs, rotors,
bearings, calipers, hoses, and ball joints. The original bearings are much
more difficult to service and change, unless you install zerks, in which
case they are only somewhat more difficult to service but still much more
difficult to replace. And if the bearing has failed, it often takes the hub
and knuckle with it, and these are hard to replace (or will be when Dave
Lenzi stops rebuilding them, which we of course hope happens later rather
than sooner).
Bearing adjustment in the original design is critically dependent on the
spacer and the machining of the hub and knuckle, and cannot be easily
evaluated after required assembly. On the one-ton, the knuckle is slightly
modified (I think it’s the upper ball-joint taper, but I may be
misremembering) but should never need replacing simply because bearing
races are not directly installed in it. The bearing is a cartridge held in
place with four bolts and can be replaced at roadside if necessary.
The lower control arm is modified, but strengthened (in the places where
early A-arms fatigue and also in the torsion-bar receptacle) and should
never need replacing short of collision damage. Bushings are unchanged from
the original.
The bearing was originally designed for the use of a spacer.
There are some handling effects, but most people don’t notice them. In
return for that, the brakes are bigger and better, and will balance
improvements in rear braking that we might make.
The handling issue is caused by the two A-arms not being exactly parallel,
which causes a small change in camber through jounce and rebound.
For me, the decision was made when I looked at just the cost of replacing
my fatigue-prone ‘73 control arms. But I was also attracted to the easily
replaced bearing and the bigger brakes.
Rick “who has the Manny rear kit in hand” Denney
On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 8:04 AM Jon Roche wrote:
> isn't it true that the axles are specifically built for the 1 ton? and you
> only have a couple venders that they are available from?
> isn't that the same for the A-arms?
>
> With all the coaches out there I just don't see the 1 ton as being a
> replacement for parts availability. If you are trying to save a buck on a
> total
> front end rebuild, maybe it is a way to go. I still do the math in my
> head, and still seem to think I can replace/rebuild OEM for OEM for less
> then
> a 1 ton kit.
>
> It is an option, but I just can't see it as the only option as there are
> always trade off's.
>
>
>
>
> Mr ERFisher wrote on Sun, 21 October 2018 04:52
>> I see the one ton as the only hope for the future
>> - can no longer buy new parts for the oem front ends
>> - can no longer buy oem axles
>> - the separate bearing packs are available and plentiful
>> - the 12 inch disks supply good brakes
>>
>> This makes the 1 ton the ONLY hope for the future of my 3 gmcs
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 2:34 AM wrote:
>>
>>> why do you regret putting the 1 ton front end on your friends coach?
>>>
>>> ronc
>>>
>>> On Sun, 21 Oct 2018 06:11:22 +0000 Bob Dunahugh
>>> writes:
>>>> The one ton is a cheep way to go if about every part is bad up front.
>>>> That's why I put one in a friends GMC when they first came out. Now
>>>> I regret putting it in. Giving serious though of putting it back to
>>>> original. I just don't see a good reason to put one in. Bob
>>>> Dunahugh
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Ron & Linda Clark
>>> North Plains, ORYGUN
>>> 1978 Eleganza II
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>>
>> --
>> Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
>> "Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
>> -------
>> http://gmcmotorhome.info/
>> Alternator Protection Cable
>> http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
>
> --
> Jon Roche
> 75 palm beach
> St. Cloud, MN
> http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
--
Rick Denney
73 x-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
Off-list email to rick at rickdenney dot com
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| Re: [GMCnet] One Ton Front End [message #338067 is a reply to message #338065] |
Mon, 22 October 2018 10:44 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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No one is as blind, as he who refuses to look. (not my quote)
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
On Mon, Oct 22, 2018, 8:29 AM Jim Kanomata wrote:
> Parts for the originals are still available, but the suppliers need to join
> forces and get parts available when they get scarce.
>
> On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 8:05 AM gene Fisher wrote:
>
>> http://www.machinesoflovinggrace.net/gmc/frontend/
>>
>> 😀
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 5:04 AM Jon Roche wrote:
>>
>>> isn't it true that the axles are specifically built for the 1 ton? and
>> you
>>> only have a couple venders that they are available from?
>>> isn't that the same for the A-arms?
>>>
>>> With all the coaches out there I just don't see the 1 ton as being a
>>> replacement for parts availability. If you are trying to save a buck
>> on a
>>> total
>>> front end rebuild, maybe it is a way to go. I still do the math in my
>>> head, and still seem to think I can replace/rebuild OEM for OEM for
> less
>>> then
>>> a 1 ton kit.
>>>
>>> It is an option, but I just can't see it as the only option as there
> are
>>> always trade off's.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Mr ERFisher wrote on Sun, 21 October 2018 04:52
>>>> I see the one ton as the only hope for the future
>>>> - can no longer buy new parts for the oem front ends
>>>> - can no longer buy oem axles
>>>> - the separate bearing packs are available and plentiful
>>>> - the 12 inch disks supply good brakes
>>>>
>>>> This makes the 1 ton the ONLY hope for the future of my 3 gmcs
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 2:34 AM wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > why do you regret putting the 1 ton front end on your friends
> coach?
>>>> >
>>>> > ronc
>>>> >
>>>> > On Sun, 21 Oct 2018 06:11:22 +0000 Bob Dunahugh
>>>> > writes:
>>>> >> The one ton is a cheep way to go if about every part is bad up
>> front.
>>>> >> That's why I put one in a friends GMC when they first came out.
> Now
>>>> >> I regret putting it in. Giving serious though of putting it back
> to
>>>> >> original. I just don't see a good reason to put one in. Bob
>>>> >> Dunahugh
>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>> >> GMCnet mailing list
>>>> >> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>>> >> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > Ron & Linda Clark
>>>> > North Plains, ORYGUN
>>>> > 1978 Eleganza II
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > GMCnet mailing list
>>>> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>>> > http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>>> >
>>>> --
>>>> Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
>>>> "Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
>>>> -------
>>>> http://gmcmotorhome.info/
>>>> Alternator Protection Cable
>>>> http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Jon Roche
>>> 75 palm beach
>>> St. Cloud, MN
>>> http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>>
>> --
>> Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
>> “Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
>> -------
>> http://gmcmotorhome.info/
>> Alternator Protection Cable
>> http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
> --
> Jim Kanomata
> Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
> jimk@appliedairfilters.com
> http://www.appliedgmc.com
> 1-800-752-7502
> _______________________________________________
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| Re: [GMCnet] One Ton Front End [message #338068 is a reply to message #338066] |
Mon, 22 October 2018 11:01 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
|
Senior Member |
|
|
The best example I can give of the 1 ton is on a coach that I worked on
from the Oregon Coast. The original front end was extensively worn, as was
the rear bogie top hat thrust bushings and pins, along with drum brakes,
shocks, bushings, etc.
I installed a 1 ton front end, a quadra-bag full reaction arm disc
brake system with rear sway bars, KYB gas shocks, and my wireless remote
air system.
It went from an ill handling POS that both hands on the wheel and eyes
front and center were required to keep it on a twisty 2 lane, to a real
pleasure to drive.
Money well spent, in my opinion. But, your expectations and results
may vary.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403
On Mon, Oct 22, 2018, 8:44 AM Richard Denney wrote:
> The CV joints and boots are commonly available, as are hubs, rotors,
> bearings, calipers, hoses, and ball joints. The original bearings are much
> more difficult to service and change, unless you install zerks, in which
> case they are only somewhat more difficult to service but still much more
> difficult to replace. And if the bearing has failed, it often takes the hub
> and knuckle with it, and these are hard to replace (or will be when Dave
> Lenzi stops rebuilding them, which we of course hope happens later rather
> than sooner).
>
> Bearing adjustment in the original design is critically dependent on the
> spacer and the machining of the hub and knuckle, and cannot be easily
> evaluated after required assembly. On the one-ton, the knuckle is slightly
> modified (I think it’s the upper ball-joint taper, but I may be
> misremembering) but should never need replacing simply because bearing
> races are not directly installed in it. The bearing is a cartridge held in
> place with four bolts and can be replaced at roadside if necessary.
>
> The lower control arm is modified, but strengthened (in the places where
> early A-arms fatigue and also in the torsion-bar receptacle) and should
> never need replacing short of collision damage. Bushings are unchanged from
> the original.
>
> The bearing was originally designed for the use of a spacer.
>
> There are some handling effects, but most people don’t notice them. In
> return for that, the brakes are bigger and better, and will balance
> improvements in rear braking that we might make.
>
> The handling issue is caused by the two A-arms not being exactly parallel,
> which causes a small change in camber through jounce and rebound.
>
> For me, the decision was made when I looked at just the cost of replacing
> my fatigue-prone ‘73 control arms. But I was also attracted to the easily
> replaced bearing and the bigger brakes.
>
> Rick “who has the Manny rear kit in hand” Denney
>
> On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 8:04 AM Jon Roche wrote:
>
>> isn't it true that the axles are specifically built for the 1 ton? and
> you
>> only have a couple venders that they are available from?
>> isn't that the same for the A-arms?
>>
>> With all the coaches out there I just don't see the 1 ton as being a
>> replacement for parts availability. If you are trying to save a buck
> on a
>> total
>> front end rebuild, maybe it is a way to go. I still do the math in my
>> head, and still seem to think I can replace/rebuild OEM for OEM for less
>> then
>> a 1 ton kit.
>>
>> It is an option, but I just can't see it as the only option as there are
>> always trade off's.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Mr ERFisher wrote on Sun, 21 October 2018 04:52
>>> I see the one ton as the only hope for the future
>>> - can no longer buy new parts for the oem front ends
>>> - can no longer buy oem axles
>>> - the separate bearing packs are available and plentiful
>>> - the 12 inch disks supply good brakes
>>>
>>> This makes the 1 ton the ONLY hope for the future of my 3 gmcs
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 2:34 AM wrote:
>>>
>>>> why do you regret putting the 1 ton front end on your friends coach?
>>>>
>>>> ronc
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, 21 Oct 2018 06:11:22 +0000 Bob Dunahugh
>>>> writes:
>>>> > The one ton is a cheep way to go if about every part is bad up
> front.
>>>> > That's why I put one in a friends GMC when they first came out. Now
>>>> > I regret putting it in. Giving serious though of putting it back to
>>>> > original. I just don't see a good reason to put one in. Bob
>>>> > Dunahugh
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > GMCnet mailing list
>>>> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>>> > http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ron & Linda Clark
>>>> North Plains, ORYGUN
>>>> 1978 Eleganza II
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>>>
>>> --
>>> Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
>>> "Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
>>> -------
>>> http://gmcmotorhome.info/
>>> Alternator Protection Cable
>>> http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
>>
>> --
>> Jon Roche
>> 75 palm beach
>> St. Cloud, MN
>> http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
> --
> Rick Denney
> 73 x-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
> Off-list email to rick at rickdenney dot com
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] One Ton Front End [message #338069 is a reply to message #338068] |
Mon, 22 October 2018 11:38 |
Gary Worobec
Messages: 867
Registered: May 2005
Karma: -1
|
Senior Member |
|
|
I have a complete set of OEM front end parts off my 73 if anyone wants them. Miguel did the bearings on them so they only have about 3000 miles on them before I switched to Manny’s one ton stuff several years ago. Parts are kind of rusty after being outside but still all good.
Gary Worobec
Anza, CA
gtw5@earthlink.net
> On Oct 22, 2018, at 9:01 AM, James Hupy wrote:
>
> The best example I can give of the 1 ton is on a coach that I worked on
> from the Oregon Coast. The original front end was extensively worn, as was
> the rear bogie top hat thrust bushings and pins, along with drum brakes,
> shocks, bushings, etc.
> I installed a 1 ton front end, a quadra-bag full reaction arm disc
> brake system with rear sway bars, KYB gas shocks, and my wireless remote
> air system.
> It went from an ill handling POS that both hands on the wheel and eyes
> front and center were required to keep it on a twisty 2 lane, to a real
> pleasure to drive.
> Money well spent, in my opinion. But, your expectations and results
> may vary.
> Jim Hupy
> Salem, Or
> 78 GMC ROYALE 403
>
> On Mon, Oct 22, 2018, 8:44 AM Richard Denney wrote:
>
>> The CV joints and boots are commonly available, as are hubs, rotors,
>> bearings, calipers, hoses, and ball joints. The original bearings are much
>> more difficult to service and change, unless you install zerks, in which
>> case they are only somewhat more difficult to service but still much more
>> difficult to replace. And if the bearing has failed, it often takes the hub
>> and knuckle with it, and these are hard to replace (or will be when Dave
>> Lenzi stops rebuilding them, which we of course hope happens later rather
>> than sooner).
>>
>> Bearing adjustment in the original design is critically dependent on the
>> spacer and the machining of the hub and knuckle, and cannot be easily
>> evaluated after required assembly. On the one-ton, the knuckle is slightly
>> modified (I think it’s the upper ball-joint taper, but I may be
>> misremembering) but should never need replacing simply because bearing
>> races are not directly installed in it. The bearing is a cartridge held in
>> place with four bolts and can be replaced at roadside if necessary.
>>
>> The lower control arm is modified, but strengthened (in the places where
>> early A-arms fatigue and also in the torsion-bar receptacle) and should
>> never need replacing short of collision damage. Bushings are unchanged from
>> the original.
>>
>> The bearing was originally designed for the use of a spacer.
>>
>> There are some handling effects, but most people don’t notice them. In
>> return for that, the brakes are bigger and better, and will balance
>> improvements in rear braking that we might make.
>>
>> The handling issue is caused by the two A-arms not being exactly parallel,
>> which causes a small change in camber through jounce and rebound.
>>
>> For me, the decision was made when I looked at just the cost of replacing
>> my fatigue-prone ‘73 control arms. But I was also attracted to the easily
>> replaced bearing and the bigger brakes.
>>
>> Rick “who has the Manny rear kit in hand” Denney
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 8:04 AM Jon Roche wrote:
>>
>>> isn't it true that the axles are specifically built for the 1 ton? and
>> you
>>> only have a couple venders that they are available from?
>>> isn't that the same for the A-arms?
>>>
>>> With all the coaches out there I just don't see the 1 ton as being a
>>> replacement for parts availability. If you are trying to save a buck
>> on a
>>> total
>>> front end rebuild, maybe it is a way to go. I still do the math in my
>>> head, and still seem to think I can replace/rebuild OEM for OEM for less
>>> then
>>> a 1 ton kit.
>>>
>>> It is an option, but I just can't see it as the only option as there are
>>> always trade off's.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Mr ERFisher wrote on Sun, 21 October 2018 04:52
>>>> I see the one ton as the only hope for the future
>>>> - can no longer buy new parts for the oem front ends
>>>> - can no longer buy oem axles
>>>> - the separate bearing packs are available and plentiful
>>>> - the 12 inch disks supply good brakes
>>>>
>>>> This makes the 1 ton the ONLY hope for the future of my 3 gmcs
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 2:34 AM wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > why do you regret putting the 1 ton front end on your friends coach?
>>>> >
>>>> > ronc
>>>> >
>>>> > On Sun, 21 Oct 2018 06:11:22 +0000 Bob Dunahugh
>>>> > writes:
>>>> >> The one ton is a cheep way to go if about every part is bad up
>> front.
>>>> >> That's why I put one in a friends GMC when they first came out. Now
>>>> >> I regret putting it in. Giving serious though of putting it back to
>>>> >> original. I just don't see a good reason to put one in. Bob
>>>> >> Dunahugh
>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>> >> GMCnet mailing list
>>>> >> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>>> >> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > Ron & Linda Clark
>>>> > North Plains, ORYGUN
>>>> > 1978 Eleganza II
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > GMCnet mailing list
>>>> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>>> > http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>>> >
>>>> --
>>>> Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
>>>> "Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
>>>> -------
>>>> http://gmcmotorhome.info/
>>>> Alternator Protection Cable
>>>> http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Jon Roche
>>> 75 palm beach
>>> St. Cloud, MN
>>> http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>>
>> --
>> Rick Denney
>> 73 x-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
>> Off-list email to rick at rickdenney dot com
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
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| Re: [GMCnet] One Ton Front End. Is it an upgrade. [message #338120 is a reply to message #338060] |
Thu, 25 October 2018 14:44 |
BobDunahugh
Messages: 2465
Registered: October 2010
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA
Karma: 11
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Bruce H. Yes. The 1 ton unit has performed well for GM on their trucks. But we're not using them in one of the trucks that the assembly was designed to function in. All rims have offset. So that the centerline of the tire is positioned for proper bearing loading. Having the bearings improperly loaded will affect bearing life, and safety of operation. So we have a spacer. And rims with what offset? So how is the offset changed with our application? If you have about every part that the one ton fixes. It's the cheapest way out. If you only need the knuckles/bearings addressed. And maybe the lower ball joints replaced. Then the knuckle with the grease fitting. That is a true lifetime fix. I'm sorry. But I'm anal over suspention geometry. The best handling GMC will come from a well maintained original GM designed front suspention. Bob Dunahugh
________________________________
From: Bob Dunahugh
Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2018 9:43 PM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: One Ton Front End. Is it an upgrade.
I don't see it as one. And there are other well respected vendors that agree. I'm not saying that it's all bad. I can just say that I'll never have one of the one ton kits in a GMC that I'll own. As to what you may feel. Do what makes you comfortable.
All manufactures DO NOT, way over design suspention components as was done in days gone by. Our knuckle were designed for a car that weighed in the 5000 pound range. But due to their design parameters at that time of over building. These units have served us well for 41 to 46 years on a motor home that comes in at up to 12,000 lbs. For many. Well over 100,000 miles. The bearings haven't been the issue. It's been how the knuckle was machined out to hold the bearing in place. The machining process left the bearing mounting surface with valleys, and ridges. The ridges get compressed. Then the bearing looses it's interference fit. Dave Linzie, and Jim K can solve that issue at a reasonable price. With the one ton. The tire of the one ton isn't centered properly over the bearing center line as GM designed for it's one ton 4 wheel drive trucks. Then there's a deviation from standard suspention norms. With the upper, and lower A frames not being parallel with the one ton. There has been info put out that parts for our original suspention isn't available anymore. I haven't found that to be the case. The GMC that I rebuilt 3 years ago. It will last another 40 years for the next owner if properly maintained. Bob Dunahugh
________________________________
From: Bob Dunahugh
Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2018 1:11 AM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: RE: One Ton Front End
The one ton is a cheep way to go if about every part is bad up front. That's why I put one in a friends GMC when they first came out. Now I regret putting it in. Giving serious though of putting it back to original. I just don't see a good reason to put one in. Bob Dunahugh
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| Re: [GMCnet] One ton front end [message #338123 is a reply to message #195431] |
Thu, 25 October 2018 18:55 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Here is my take on this. EVERY GMC still on the road is different. Yes if every suspension component on the coach is 'AS NEW"'..EVERY SUSPENSION COMPONENT then I agree it should perform ...ah OK. I still wonder about rut wander with the difference in front and rear tracks.
My 76 Elle was a handful to drive. Manny brakes helped. True Trac helped. 2" spacers helped. Alex setting the steering up helped. 1 ton was the final component that made everything work. The coach drove great...one hand down the road. No rut wander...good brakes...no complaints.
Yes, there was a bit of torque steer when accelerating hard from a stop but that was not a problem for me because I rarely drove it hard.
My point is that every coach has different things that are unique to it...worn bogie pins or components or whatever. No single solution exists for EVERY GMC outside there...short of renewing the entire suspension. Do what works for you.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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