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| [GMCnet] Carb or Fuel Injection [message #192903] |
Thu, 13 December 2012 17:53  |
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dwayne jacobson[1]
Messages: 345
Registered: July 2009
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What are the pros and cons for Carb vs FI.
I am going to do one the above. I know it will cost me approx $300 for the
carb to be rebuilt by D.P.
and I was given the estimate for FI to run around $2000.
The cost is not a real factor at this time. I would just like to hear the
pros and cons.
and what FI system do I look at???
<Much appreciated
Merry Christmas
Dwayne Jacobson
White Rock BC
69 Avanti II
77 Eleganza II - 4 Bagger
77 Kingsley
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| Re: [GMCnet] Carb or Fuel Injection [message #192904 is a reply to message #192903] |
Thu, 13 December 2012 18:15  |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
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Dwayne, modern motor fuels are formulated for engines equipped with fuel
injection systems. Injectors atomize fuel with high pressure and very small
orfices. They DO NOT rely upon venturi's for a pressure drop to atomize
the fuel like a carb does. The viscosity of modern fuels is correct for
Injectors, not so much for carbs. That FACT is not likely to change anytime
soon, and with the addition of more alcohol in the future, is only going to
work worse in a carb.
That makes a strong case for changing our gmc's to fuel injection. Several
systems out there with the Howell probably the most popular. Once correctly
installed and sorted out they are trouble free and handle alcohol blended
fuel well. There are many, and diverse, opinions out there. As the Japanese
say, "Rotsa Ruck, bud".
Jim Hupy
On Dec 13, 2012 3:53 PM, "dwayne jacobson" <dwayne.jacobson@gmail.com>
wrote:
> What are the pros and cons for Carb vs FI.
> I am going to do one the above. I know it will cost me approx $300 for the
> carb to be rebuilt by D.P.
> and I was given the estimate for FI to run around $2000.
> The cost is not a real factor at this time. I would just like to hear the
> pros and cons.
> and what FI system do I look at???
> <Much appreciated
>
> Merry Christmas
> Dwayne Jacobson
> White Rock BC
>
> 69 Avanti II
> 77 Eleganza II - 4 Bagger
> 77 Kingsley
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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| Re: [GMCnet] Carb or Fuel Injection [message #192905 is a reply to message #192904] |
Thu, 13 December 2012 18:19 |
Dwayne
Messages: 418
Registered: October 2007
Location: White Rock BC
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And now I learn that you speak Japanese!! Wow you are a somebody!!!
Do you know who carries these or direct me to that someone.
I am a learn-in -
Dwayne
White Rock
77 Kingsley
On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 4:15 PM, James Hupy <jamesh1296@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dwayne, modern motor fuels are formulated for engines equipped with fuel
> injection systems. Injectors atomize fuel with high pressure and very small
> orfices. They DO NOT rely upon venturi's for a pressure drop to atomize
> the fuel like a carb does. The viscosity of modern fuels is correct for
> Injectors, not so much for carbs. That FACT is not likely to change anytime
> soon, and with the addition of more alcohol in the future, is only going to
> work worse in a carb.
> That makes a strong case for changing our gmc's to fuel injection. Several
> systems out there with the Howell probably the most popular. Once correctly
> installed and sorted out they are trouble free and handle alcohol blended
> fuel well. There are many, and diverse, opinions out there. As the Japanese
> say, "Rotsa Ruck, bud".
> Jim Hupy
> On Dec 13, 2012 3:53 PM, "dwayne jacobson" <dwayne.jacobson@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
>
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Dwayne & Sharon Jacobson
White Rock, BC
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: [GMCnet] Carb or Fuel Injection [message #192917 is a reply to message #192903] |
Thu, 13 December 2012 20:16 |
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mike miller
Messages: 3576
Registered: February 2004
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon
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| dwayne jacobson[1 |
wrote on Thu, 13 December 2012 15:53]What are the pros and cons for Carb vs FI.
I am going to do one the above. ...
|
Dwayne,
There are some good reasons to stay with a carb: OEM repair-ability and reliability. Cost is less especially for owners with good carbs.
There are also good reasons to go to with fuel injection: Driveablity across temperatures and altitudes. The ability to add on a computer controlled distributor (CCD) and connect a laptop to the computer are bonuses.
Just do not expect the fuel mileage to improve enough to be a consideration... unless you are changing from a very poor carb to a good FI set-up.
Mike Miller -- Hillsboro, OR -- on the Black list
(#2)`78 23' Birchaven Rear Bath -- (#3)`77 23' Birchaven Side Bath
More Sidekicks than GMC's and a late model Malibu called 'Boo'
http://m000035.blogspot.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] Carb or Fuel Injection [message #192925 is a reply to message #192919] |
Thu, 13 December 2012 21:49 |
rcjordan
Messages: 1913
Registered: October 2012
Location: Elizabeth City, North Car...
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As mentioned, there are good reasons on either side. I suggested EFI to JimB for my Royale but he wanted to stay carb given that I live at sea level at most of my travels will likely be coastal states. The primary reason, though, was servicability in rural areas. I can think of about 8 guys around town here that could get a carb right in no time. Custom EFI? 2 ...and that might be overly optimistic.
SOLD 77 Royale Coachmen Side Dry Bath
76 Birchaven Coachmen Side Wet Bath
76 Eleganza
Elizabeth City, NC
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| Re: [GMCnet] Carb or Fuel Injection [message #192927 is a reply to message #192903] |
Thu, 13 December 2012 22:29 |
Jim Galbavy
Messages: 1443
Registered: August 2007
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Dwayne,
It all depends on where you primarily plan to use your coach and how. One size does not fit all. What kind of support and experience do you have there in BC (anywhere near 100 mile House?) JimB wanted to put FI in ANNIE 9 years ago. Problem is you are almost on your own if something goes wrong and the initial steps in startup can be a bear. If you are mostly at high altitudes a carb can be rejetted without no big problem. I've had a stock carb for 9 years and never had a problem. Most problems with FI or a carb is inactivity which causes gum up. I don't need a forum to keep my carb working. Just drive it. It's your coach and your 2 cents. What are you comfortable with?
jim galbavy
'73 x-CL ANNIE
Lake Mary, Fl
[Updated on: Thu, 13 December 2012 22:31] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: [GMCnet] Carb or Fuel Injection [message #192934 is a reply to message #192927] |
Fri, 14 December 2012 01:22 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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The reason why we are committed to the Howell unit as a base for a user
friendly unit is that parts for them are more readily available than the
carb parts.
We have so many experienced people that understand the Howell unit for the
GMC MH, that I can always get them help even after 5pm at night and
weekends and holidays.
When you move up from the basic unit ($1,100) to the distributor control,
then to the EBL Flash option, you'll gain in power a mileage that we are
proud of selling. We have the complete system so it is 100% plug and play.
We sell other brands as we have access to MSD,Edobrock and others, but
cannot endorse them due to lack of customer support compared to the GMC MHpeople
On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 8:29 PM, Jim Galbavy <j.galbavy@att.net> wrote:
>
>
> Dwayne,
>
> It all depends on where you primarily plan to use your coach.
> One size does not fit all. What kind of support and experience do you
> have there in BC (anywhere near 100 mile House?) JimB wanted to put FI in
> ANNIE 9 years ago. Problem is you are almost on your own if something goes
> wrong and the initial steps can be a bear. If you are mostly at high
> altitudes a carb can be rejetted without no big problem. I've had a stock
> carb for 9 years and never had a problem. Most problems with FI or a carb
> is inactivity which causes gum up. I don't need a forum to keep my carb
> working. Just drive it. It's your coach and your 2 cents. What are you
> comfortable with?
>
> jim galbavy
> '73 x-CL ANNIE
> Lake Mary, Fl
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--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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www.appliedgmc.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] Carb or Fuel Injection [message #192936 is a reply to message #192903] |
Fri, 14 December 2012 01:51 |
George Beckman
Messages: 1085
Registered: October 2008
Location: Colfax, CA
Karma: 11
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| dwayne jacobson[1 |
wrote on Thu, 13 December 2012 15:53]What are the pros and cons for Carb vs FI.
I am going to do one the above. I know it will cost me approx $300 for the
carb to be rebuilt by D.P.
and I was given the estimate for FI to run around $2000.
The cost is not a real factor at this time. I would just like to hear the
pros and cons.
and what FI system do I look at???
|
Your $2000 is probably not far off, but perhaps you could do better. I have about $2000 in mine, but I did an add on again and again. Now you can make the project in one move, which helps.
I am using the EBL setup with spark control and several years of tuning. I also have a 2.73 Final Drive and a Switch Pitch transmission. (Lower RPM stall)
I hesitate to say this, as my next trip will probably prove me wrong, but on the California- Oregon Coast- Washington- Montana- Canada (Banff)- N & S Dakota-Amana Iowa and home again on Highway 80 to California (5400 miles) yielded 10.7 mpg. This is not a guess, but actual pump vs. miles driven. As you can see from the states, this was not all flatland driving. I have checked the odometer and made corrections for its inaccuracy. I drive about 62 mph and was not towing. The 455 runs about 2150 RPMs at this speed.
The accidental install of a 2.73 final drive probably helped a great deal, but it shows that the GMC can get more than 8.5 mpg.
Please don't let the several years of tuning scare you. A number of really smart guys have been working on adjusting the EBL for our coaches. Not all are perfect, but we have some sweet running coaches out there. They run well at altitude, start well, get decent mileage, ping less in hot hills and have good power. EBL is not the only answer. It is what many of us use because we started with Howell, added spark control and then found EBL modernizes the whole system and makes adjustment much easier.
I would not recommend a system that does not integrate spark control with fuel supply. EBL adjusts spark according to fuel delivery.
'74 Eleganza, SE, Howell + EBL
Best Wishes,
George
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| Re: [GMCnet] Carb or Fuel Injection [message #192941 is a reply to message #192903] |
Fri, 14 December 2012 09:21 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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| dwayne jacobson[1 |
wrote on Thu, 13 December 2012 18:53]What are the pros and cons for Carb vs FI.
I am going to do one the above. I know it will cost me approx $300 for the carb to be rebuilt by D.P. and I was given the estimate for FI to run around $2000.
The cost is not a real factor at this time. I would just like to hear the pros and cons.
and what FI system do I look at???
<Much appreciated
Merry Christmas
Dwayne Jacobson
White Rock BC
|
Dwayne,
If I were in the situation you are, I would seriously consider going to fuel injection with EBL and Spark Control. While I have a great carburetor and a distributor that works as well as could be hoped, it can not accommodate changes in altitude or fuel quality. A well calibrated electronic system can do this in between control cycles (it sees it as no additional effort).
Some people say that you are on your own if it goes down when you are on the road. Hold that thought....
If you have recently tried to find a carburetor guy, or tried to get a distributor repaired and re-curved, you may also recognize the flint lock muskets that the same person maintains. Yes, the old systems are simple, but that was necessity, not a choice.
The systems that people are putting into GMCs are not state of the automotive art, but the are way past the original. If you choose not to enable the WUD (What's Up Display), you can always drop back to the available OBDII for diagnostic. You will not find a currently employed (or recently retired) passcar mechanic that does not have an OBD reader and will probably recognize the top hundred error codes when they show up. And, if you were to have trouble with the system on the road, almost all the components are stock - from something common - not like a carburetor that was TZE only. If you do it right, you will have the complete documentation onboard and with that, any competent wrench should be able to get the system back online, but only IF you happen to need him.
The above is the personal opinion of an engineer that worked in the automotive for many decades, has had many strange vehicles but has only had his TZE for six years and about twenty five thousand miles.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] Carb or Fuel Injection [message #192947 is a reply to message #192941] |
Fri, 14 December 2012 11:12 |
rcjordan
Messages: 1913
Registered: October 2012
Location: Elizabeth City, North Car...
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>recently tried to find a carburetor guy, or tried to get a distributor repaired and re-curved, you may also recognize the flint lock muskets that the same person maintains. Yes, the old systems are simple
I've got friends who can size carb jets or cam shafts in their sleep, design & mill adapter plates for bolting MerCruisers into Series II Land Rovers, or drop Mercedes or Isuzu diesels into Land Rovers from Series II's to late models and run them on vegetable oil. Here, with some time, I can come up with someone who can do anything I want if I'm willing to pay for it. But I'm fine with carb because I once sat a day in some Arizona town that had all dirt streets and I thought I was lucky to get a tire remounted, much less have someone work on EFI.
It's up to you to pick your poison, Dwayne.
SOLD 77 Royale Coachmen Side Dry Bath
76 Birchaven Coachmen Side Wet Bath
76 Eleganza
Elizabeth City, NC
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| Re: [GMCnet] Carb or Fuel Injection [message #192951 is a reply to message #192947] |
Fri, 14 December 2012 11:34 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Dwayne, If you wonder about the complexities of fuel injection systems,
Noble Warrant, Jeff Fraisure, and I are all up to speed on the Howell
system, and are a phone call away.
Remember when we were in Barrie, Ontario at Dick's place and carbmaster
himself reset your carb so the secondaries would work properly as well as
the choke. We can only play the hands that we are dealt. There has not been
a carburetor manufactured in this country for new vehicle application in
at least twenty years. All the technical schools now only display carbs as
museum pieces. They offer almost none if any instruction on them . All the
current techs receive their training on fuel injection. This is a FACT.
Guys like me are Dinosaurs from another era, and there fewer of us around
every day. Noble assembled his entire fuel injection system from men's mall
pieces, and has around $500.00 in cash outlay for the parts. He had a lot
of help from Jeff. You are a bright guy, and maintain your own stuff. Trust
me when I say, you can learn how fuel injection works and how to tune it
yourself. It ain't rocket science. Once you understand the basics, it is
easier to tune than a carb, and the parts are available as well. Ain't any
harder than trying to find a mechanical fuel fuel pump for a 455 Oldsmobile
in Pocahontas Campground in the Canadian wilderness, and we have done that,
right?
Jim Hupy
Salem, OR
78 GMC Royale 403
On Fri, Dec 14, 2012 at 9:12 AM, RC Jordan <rc@rcjordan.com> wrote:
>
>
> >recently tried to find a carburetor guy, or tried to get a distributor
> repaired and re-curved, you may also recognize the flint lock muskets that
> the same person maintains. Yes, the old systems are simple
>
> I've got friends who can size carb jets or cam shafts in their sleep,
> design & mill adapter plates for bolting MerCruisers into Series II Land
> Rovers, or drop Mercedes or Isuzu diesels into Land Rovers from Series II's
> to late models and run them on vegetable oil. Here, with some time, I can
> come up with someone who can do anything I want if I'm willing to pay for
> it. But I'm fine with carb because I once sat a day in some Arizona town
> that had all dirt streets and I thought I was lucky to get a tire
> remounted, much less have someone work on EFI.
>
> It's up to you to pick your poison, Dwayne.
> --
> 77 Royale Coachmen Side Dry Bath "http://RetroChicGMC.com/"
> 76 Birchaven Coachmen Side Wet Bath "http://ShortCircuitGMC.com/"
> Both currently at GMCcoop
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Carb or Fuel Injection [message #192957 is a reply to message #192951] |
Fri, 14 December 2012 12:20 |
rcjordan
Messages: 1913
Registered: October 2012
Location: Elizabeth City, North Car...
Karma: 1
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>a phone call away
Sorry, but that statement makes me cringe. Sure, I'll call but it'll be the last resort and that's assuming I have a cell phone or landline handy.
The decision boils down to how many dependencies you want to take on. If you want to are confident that you can eliminate more of those with EFI, either with help or DIY, then go EFI. I, personally, opted for EFI on the Royale but didn't get it with JimB. I could get us out of Arizona dirt towns with EFI and phone calls --but, again, the phone calls would have been after I've exhausted all other possibilities or time was critical.
But one of the hardest things for me to do is to remember that I might not be the one who's in the catbird seat and calling the shots. Will your wife be able to run the repair if you're sick or hurt? How about a son-in-law who borrows the coach? This can shift the dependency matrix into overdrive.
SOLD 77 Royale Coachmen Side Dry Bath
76 Birchaven Coachmen Side Wet Bath
76 Eleganza
Elizabeth City, NC
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| Re: [GMCnet] Carb or Fuel Injection [message #192959 is a reply to message #192957] |
Fri, 14 December 2012 12:59 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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RC, Dwayne and I are good friends. We traveled across Canada this summer
with them. We helped each other fix our coaches along the way. Both of us
would go to great lengths to help others out. That is my point of reference
with him, and my rationale for answering him specifically the way I did. I
always try to respond to queries with factual information. Like my response
to the blended fuel issue. It is truth not speculation that it won't get
any better for those of us running carbs any time soon. Hot weather
driveability issues are reality with the stuff. PROPERLY SORTED OUT, fuel
injection does a better job of delivering todays fuels to the engine under
a greater variety of driving conditions like both Dwayne and I experienced
this summer. That being said, your experiences may vary, and carbs may
indeed work in your situation.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 Gmc Royale 403
On Dec 14, 2012 10:20 AM, "RC Jordan" <rc@rcjordan.com> wrote:
>
>
> >a phone call away
>
> Sorry, but that statement makes me cringe. Sure, I'll call but it'll be
> the last resort and that's assuming I have a cell phone or landline handy.
>
> The decision boils down to how many dependencies you want to take on. If
> you want to are confident that you can eliminate more of those with EFI,
> either with help or DIY, then go EFI. I, personally, opted for EFI on the
> Royale but didn't get it with JimB. I could get us out of Arizona dirt
> towns with EFI and phone calls --but, again, the phone calls would have
> been after I've exhausted all other possibilities or time was critical.
>
> But one of the hardest things for me to do is to remember that I might not
> be the one who's in the catbird seat and calling the shots. Will your wife
> be able to run the repair if you're sick or hurt? How about a son-in-law
> who borrows the coach? This can shift the dependency matrix into overdrive.
> --
> 77 Royale Coachmen Side Dry Bath "http://RetroChicGMC.com/"
> 76 Birchaven Coachmen Side Wet Bath "http://ShortCircuitGMC.com/"
> Both currently at GMCcoop
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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| Re: [GMCnet] Carb or Fuel Injection [message #192961 is a reply to message #192959] |
Fri, 14 December 2012 13:20 |
rcjordan
Messages: 1913
Registered: October 2012
Location: Elizabeth City, North Car...
Karma: 1
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I appreciate the explanation, Jim, but my reaction would have been the same. Personally, I'm *firmly* in Matt's camp re flintlocks. I've begged for more than my share of mechanical fuel pump diaphragms. But I'm ending up with carbs and that's OK, too.
Now, what I REALLY want is dual fuel. Saw it over at the co-op. Carb, in that case.
SOLD 77 Royale Coachmen Side Dry Bath
76 Birchaven Coachmen Side Wet Bath
76 Eleganza
Elizabeth City, NC
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| Re: [GMCnet] Carb or Fuel Injection [message #192962 is a reply to message #192961] |
Fri, 14 December 2012 13:34 |
emerystora
Messages: 4442
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 13
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Today it is more likely to be able to find a mechanic that can work on throttle body fuel injection than one that can work on carbs.
The first GM throttle body fuel injection was in 1982 and then in 1983 or 1984 crossfire injection was introduced on the Corvette, which used 2 throttle bodies. Tuned multi-port fuel injection was introduced in 1985 (Corvette first and then the Camaro), central port injection in 1992 (appearing first on the 4.3L engine), and then sequential port injection in 1994.
Full size trucks started using TBI in 1987 (none prior), with some heavy duty being carbed at least until 1988, but that is very rare.
GM used throttle body until about 1995.
The TBI systems that we have used on our GMC Motorhomes have a plug in for a diagnostics tester. This makes it fairly easy to find problems. I don't think that it would be much of a problem finding a mechanic that could work on it. Granted 1995 was 17 years ago but GM stopped using carbs about 24 years ago.
Emery Stora
77 Kingsley
Frederick, CO
On Dec 14, 2012, at 12:20 PM, RC Jordan wrote:
>
>
> I appreciate the explanation, Jim, but my reaction would have been the same. Personally, I'm *firmly* in Matt's camp re flintlocks. I've begged for more than my share of mechanical fuel pump diaphragms. But I'm ending up with carbs and that's OK, too.
>
> Now, what I REALLY want is dual fuel. Saw it over at the co-op. Carb, in that case.
> --
> 77 Royale Coachmen Side Dry Bath "http://RetroChicGMC.com/"
> 76 Birchaven Coachmen Side Wet Bath "http://ShortCircuitGMC.com/"
> Both currently at GMCcoop
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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| Re: [GMCnet] Carb or Fuel Injection [message #192963 is a reply to message #192962] |
Fri, 14 December 2012 13:45 |
rcjordan
Messages: 1913
Registered: October 2012
Location: Elizabeth City, North Car...
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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>Today it is more likely to be able to find a mechanic that can work on throttle body fuel injection than one that can work on carbs.
That's a location-by-location issue, not an absolute. I don't have a problem with carbs locally but the guys around here build everything from tractors-pullers to aircraft carriers around here.
SOLD 77 Royale Coachmen Side Dry Bath
76 Birchaven Coachmen Side Wet Bath
76 Eleganza
Elizabeth City, NC
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