| Plumbing help needed from the wizards [message #192142] |
Mon, 03 December 2012 19:58  |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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Well crap! Most of you know we've been working on our 77 Eleganza trying to get it ready for a week on the beach before Christmas. We still haven't spent the night in the coach because of some family medical issues but those cleared up and we were hoping to camp in the driveway tonight. Yesterday I replaced all three of the squealing belts and the coach was running and driving great. It's been below freezing at night recently but the weather is going to be above freezing so this was a good day to fill the tank, hook to shore water, and test all the plumbing.
Filling the storage tank was first. Within about 10 seconds, I saw water running out from under the coach. lots of water...Crap.
Out came the new bed and platform only to find the fresh water line to the storage tank had a big split. Of to town to get a new hose and finally found the correct 1 1/4" size at the third RV place. Got that fixed and started filling the tank. Put about half a tank in it and turned on the pump which ran fine. Only problem was that the water flow was really, REALLY, [B]REALLY[B]weak with a good bit of air in the water. In fact, you can see the air bubbles in the clear hoses to the pump. Also the hot water tank drain was frozen absolutely solid in the open position. So what water got into the tank was running out.
Hooked to shore water and got plenty of pressure at the kitchen and bathroom. Toliet flushes fine (new Theford), shower head works and shuts off, bathroom sink doesn't completely shut off when you turn on the shower but it's not a show stopper. NO WATER from the hot water knobs.
So I had 3 problems, fixed one, and have at LEAST two more.
For the email folks these photos are in this album or you can click on the link to individual photos below.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g6243-plumbing-woes.html
Let's start with the water pump. Here are a few shots of the area in question.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/data/6243/R_0013.jpg
There is some stuff going on here that don't make sense to me. I plumbed my entire house and have no idea why this is the way it is???
In this photo, the water comes in from the top left and immediately runs into a TEE. More on this tee later. From the TEE it runs through a filter on to a valve (#1) that has a drain. The valve (1) has "OPEN" marked on it and when in that position it drains. The other position is "BYPASS" which apparently closes the drain valve. The drain is out the bottom so you can't see it in the photo.
From the valve, the water goes through the suction side of the pump and out the pressure side to another TEE. (Lower left in the photo. The TEE feeds the QUEST water supply line and heads down the inside side of the water tank to the bathroom. On the top of the TEE is another little valve (#2) with a small red line that goes up the left side to another brass valve (#3) (center left). This valve is another drain.
I can grasp that, one drain on each side of the pump. What I don't understand is why the other side of that valve goes back up and ties into the first TEE (top left). That loop makes no sense to me at all. I can see air in the lines also. Seems to me that the third valve and the connection back in to the suction side is not desirable.
Here are a few more closeups of this area:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/data/6243/R_0025.jpg
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/data/6243/R_0033.jpg
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/data/6243/R_0044.jpg
So that is problem 1. I'd like your thoughts on this. My opinion is to eliminate the loop and just have a couple drains. Also the suction line runs uphill so it's going to be difficult to drain the tank and that may be why the TEE is there but I don't think it should be connected to the pressure side.
Ok problem #2 is the hot water issue (s). The drain valve is frozen solid and the PO told me it needed to be replaced. I THINK I can lift the hot water tank and get to it from inside the bathroom. I've removed the cabinet and doors.
I also removed the rear bathroom wall thinking it would be easier to get to it. Not sure which way will be best but either way it's got to be changed. Here is a shot from the back:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/data/6243/R_0062.jpg
If I can't get to it from inside the bathroom, as a last resort I THINK I can get to it by cutting the sink drain out.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/data/6243/R_0092.jpg
Problem #3 is related to why I didn't get ANY hot water from any faucet. Take a look at this photo:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/data/6243/R_0071.jpg
On the cold water line, there is another of these open/bypass valves and the white flex line goes back up to the hot water line. I can't think of any reason that this is needed???????
A close up of the valve on the cold water input:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/data/6243/R_0082.jpg
The valve is in the "open" position. I'm thinking that if I put it on bypass, it will basically ignore the feedback line but I just don't understand why anyone would do that?????
I hope yall can offer some clarity here. Please refer to problem 1, 2 or 3.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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| Re: Plumbing help needed from the wizards [message #192148 is a reply to message #192142] |
Mon, 03 December 2012 20:30  |
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mike miller
Messages: 3576
Registered: February 2004
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon
Karma: 0
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| Quote: |
... On the cold water line, there is another of these open/bypass valves and the white flex line goes back up to the hot water line. I can't think of any reason that this is needed??????? ...
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This is a hot water heater bypass. This takes the hot water system out of the loop, reducing the amount of anti-freeze needed to winterize by up to 6 gallons. You have the two valve set-up (rather than one valve and a check valve) so both valves need to be in the same position to get flow to the "hot water knobs."
The plumbing in the rear by the tank seems to have been slightly modified for winterizing. I suspect the valve on the suction side of the pump has a hose (somewhere, maybe in the propane compartment?) that can be stuck in a gallon jug of "pink stuff" to pump into the water lines.
The red line seems to be a drain for the pressure side (aka cold water) side of the system, connecting to a tee. The other two connections of the Tee are the tank drain valve and a drain through the floor.
Whatever you do with the hotwater tank drain, make sure it is fairly easy to access when you are done. If should be drained when winterizing and from time to time to reduce sediment.
Mike Miller -- Hillsboro, OR -- on the Black list
(#2)`78 23' Birchaven Rear Bath -- (#3)`77 23' Birchaven Side Bath
More Sidekicks than GMC's and a late model Malibu called 'Boo'
http://m000035.blogspot.com
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| Re: Plumbing help needed from the wizards [message #192150 is a reply to message #192142] |
Mon, 03 December 2012 20:42 |
zhagrieb
Messages: 676
Registered: August 2009
Location: Portland Oregon
Karma: 0
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Kerry,
I'd get rid of the loop between tank and pump. That could be responsible for your low pressure and air in the line.
I'd ignore the stuck drain on the water heater. Cut the drain hose where you can reach it and install a valve there.
Glenn
Glenn Giere, Portland OR, K7GAG
'73 "Moby the Motorhome" 26'
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| Re: Plumbing help needed from the wizards [message #192172 is a reply to message #192158] |
Tue, 04 December 2012 08:23 |
tphipps
Messages: 3005
Registered: August 2004
Location: Spanish Fort, AL
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Put it together so that you can understand it. Write notes for the next guy.
My easy drain solution for the hot water tank (I'm dealing with the small buried hot water heater in an Avion, under the bed). I put a long clear hose on the drain tap, attach this hose to the HF near vacuum pump, attach the vacuum pump to my air compressor, and allow the laws of physics "vacuum" out the entire water system. Done with the faucets open, there will be little or no water in the system.
http://www.harborfreight.com/air-vacuum-pump-with-r134a-and-r12-connectors-96677.html is the pump that I use.
Tom, MS II
2012 Phoenix Cruiser model 2552
KA4CSG
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| Re: Plumbing help needed from the wizards [message #192222 is a reply to message #192142] |
Tue, 04 December 2012 15:44 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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Senior Member |
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Well, that was interesting. FIVE leaks, THREE trips to town, and tightening EIGHT hose clamps and it seems to be working fine.
The drain valve on the shore water was leaking. Fixed that first thing and when I was in town getting that part (Lowes doesn't carry QUEST any more so I got a different type of 1/4 turn shutoff with a 1/4" compression fitting that hooked to the original drain tube.
The hot water heater was a bit more difficult. I did as someone suggested and ran the drain line straight down through the wheel well and put a ball valve in place that I can open from inside. Once that was done I turned the water on and the cold water worked fine as did the hot water BUT the hot water flow was really weak, like a 1/4" streamey kind of dribble. So out came all the old valving and interconnect and back to town to a real plumbing supply house. Guess what, they don't carry two way valves! So out came the old open/bypass valves and in went some plain old ball valves. The bypass valves are very restrictive and that plus the check valve accounted for the weak stream.
Then I only had to replace one of the QUEST lines to the faucet and all the leaks were done on shore power. And the hot water heater works. It has a 12 minute timer and shuts off automatically.
On the water tank, I was still getting air in the system once I finally got all the valves open/closed in the right order (made notes). I could see the air in the clear suction lines. At first I thought it was the filter so I took it apart and cleaned it. Same problem. Where the heck was the air getting in. On a whim, I took my 5/16 nut driver and gave a twist to the hose clamp. Pump sound changed immediately and after I had tightened another seven clamps, the pump shut off for the first time. Who knows how long these leaks had been there or if the POs even used the water storage tank.
Knock on wood, things look to be OK now. I'll button things up and hopefully we can still get our trip in sometime.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
[Updated on: Tue, 04 December 2012 17:43] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Plumbing help needed from the wizards [message #192237 is a reply to message #192230] |
Tue, 04 December 2012 18:48 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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Senior Member |
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| chasingsummer wrote on Tue, 04 December 2012 17:33 |
time on water heater? sounds like something i need. any pics of it and info on it? thanks
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Here is the one that is on my coach.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/uploads/21803/B_001.jpg
It's an Intermatic brand and I thought it was 12 minutes but I see now that it says HOURS. I guess that makes more sense.
It is mounted sideways and upside down for some reason and I have to stand on my head and remove my trifocals to see it....  .
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
[Updated on: Tue, 04 December 2012 18:49] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Plumbing help needed from the wizards [message #192238 is a reply to message #192142] |
Tue, 04 December 2012 18:59 |
Craig Lechowicz
Messages: 541
Registered: October 2006
Location: Waterford, MI
Karma: 0
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Kerry,
Sounds like you are making good progress. The first 3 years I owned my coach I had to throw about $75 worth of brass fittings at it a year before I got all the water leaks fixed. Now, I get to replace my hot water tank, which will pretty much cover all the remaining fittings. I do have one of those water heater bypass setups on mine which I got from Camping World. And, it has similar water pressure/flow on both the hot and cold faucets, so maybe yours can be cleaned or something. It is handy when you go to winterize. Given our relatively modest fresh and black water tank capacity, if you are dry camping, more water flow is not necessarily helpful, though.
Craig Lechowicz
'77 Kingsley, Waterford, MI
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| Re: Plumbing help needed from the wizards [message #192243 is a reply to message #192142] |
Tue, 04 December 2012 20:50 |
Chr$
Messages: 2690
Registered: January 2004
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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I ripped it ALL out and started over. One roll of PEX tubing, a bunch of reusable fittings, a NEW SST tank from Applied, New Custom water tank, New pump oriented with the motor ABOVE the pumphead, New SeaLand Commode, New Household type faucets, plus a dedicated shower faucet on the wall in the lav, and NO REGRETS.
Only thing I have not replaced in the plumbing are the vent lines (OK) and the black tank, which is a total Piece of Shit.
That's next!
-Chr$: Perpetual SmartAss
Scottsdale, AZ
77 Ex-Kingsley 455 SOLD!
2010 Nomad 24 Ft TT 390W PV W/MPPT, EV4010 and custom cargo door.
Photosite: Chrisc GMC:"It has Begun" TT: "The Other Woman"
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| Re: Plumbing help needed from the wizards [message #192344 is a reply to message #192142] |
Wed, 05 December 2012 20:15 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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Senior Member |
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Took my first shower in the coach tonight (we're camping in the driveway  )
My diverter leaks and I'll pull it and replace the O rings tomorrow. The bigger problem is that the water heater started sputtering about the time I finished my shower. I guess the thermostat is bad and it is not turning off when the water gets hot. Sigh...not what I wanted to do tomorrow.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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