Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » brake fade
| brake fade [message #184833] |
Mon, 17 September 2012 13:26  |
jayrabe
Messages: 509
Registered: June 2009
Location: Portland, OR
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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As embarrassing as it is to admit what a dolt I was, I really need some advice.
I drove about 15 miles (freeway, rush hour, 25-55mph) with my emergency brake on. Towards the end I got very concerned because when I'd push the brake pedal it would go almost to the floor, but pumping it 2 or 3 times brought it back up. Got safely home, and only then noticed emergency brake on. DOH!
Front brakes recently redone by JimK with new rotors and yellow pads. Rear drums checked and OK at that time, but plan to do rear disks in near future so nothing else was done on them. Haven't checked fluid yet. Rears were pretty hot when I parked, but not THAT hot, not smoking. Emergency brake is just hooked to Drx, I think, though both sides were about same temperature. Last few miles of the drive are downhill in very slow traffic. Fronts weren't abnormally hot. Haven't driven it since.
What might cause the pedal to fade like this? What should I check first?
Thanks,
Jay "palm slapping forehead" Rabe
76 PB
Portland, OR
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| Re: brake fade [message #184837 is a reply to message #184833] |
Mon, 17 September 2012 13:38  |
midlf
Messages: 2212
Registered: July 2007
Location: SE Wisc. (Palmyra)
Karma: 1
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| jayrabe wrote on Mon, 17 September 2012 13:26 |
As embarrassing as it is to admit what a dolt I was, I really need some advice.
I drove about 15 miles (freeway, rush hour, 25-55mph) with my emergency brake on. Towards the end I got very concerned because when I'd push the brake pedal it would go almost to the floor, but pumping it 2 or 3 times brought it back up. Got safely home, and only then noticed emergency brake on. DOH!
Front brakes recently redone by JimK with new rotors and yellow pads. Rear drums checked and OK at that time, but plan to do rear disks in near future so nothing else was done on them. Haven't checked fluid yet. Rears were pretty hot when I parked, but not THAT hot, not smoking. Emergency brake is just hooked to Drx, I think, though both sides were about same temperature. Last few miles of the drive are downhill in very slow traffic. Fronts weren't abnormally hot. Haven't driven it since.
What might cause the pedal to fade like this? What should I check first?
Thanks,
Jay "palm slapping forehead" Rabe
76 PB
Portland, OR
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You had some moisture in the system (unavoidable with brake fluid) and it boiled pushing some fluid out of the rear brake cylinders. It takes several pushes on the brake pedal to pump it back up. Overall bad juju.
It it was mine I would pull the rear drums and see if there was any damage, and how much wear occurred. One item to check for sure is the rear bearings. Pull them out clean and inspect them and repack with grease just to be sure. When you get new rear grease seals make sure they pass the 1/4" test.
Steve Southworth
1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
Palmyra WI
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| Re: [GMCnet] brake fade [message #184838 is a reply to message #184833] |
Mon, 17 September 2012 13:35 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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One thing will be boilng brake fluid from having the emergency on. Let it sit overnight and try again. If you have a normal firm pedal leave it alone toill you convert,. If you don't, fix whatever failed.
--johnny
'76 23' transmode norris
'76 palm beach
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@hotmail.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2012 2:26 PM
Subject: [GMCnet] brake fade
As embarrassing as it is to admit what a dolt I was, I really need some advice.
I drove about 15 miles (freeway, rush hour, 25-55mph) with my emergency brake on. Towards the end I got very concerned because when I'd push the brake pedal it would go almost to the floor, but pumping it 2 or 3 times brought it back up. Got safely home, and only then noticed emergency brake on. DOH!
Front brakes recently redone by JimK with new rotors and yellow pads. Rear drums checked and OK at that time, but plan to do rear disks in near future so nothing else was done on them. Haven't checked fluid yet. Rears were pretty hot when I parked, but not THAT hot, not smoking. Emergency brake is just hooked to Drx, I think, though both sides were about same temperature. Last few miles of the drive are downhill in very slow traffic. Fronts weren't abnormally hot. Haven't driven it since.
What might cause the pedal to fade like this? What should I check first?
Thanks,
Jay "palm slapping forehead" Rabe
76 PB
Portland, OR
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Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: brake fade [message #184858 is a reply to message #184833] |
Mon, 17 September 2012 16:19 |
armandminnie
Messages: 864
Registered: May 2009
Location: Marana, AZ
Karma: 2
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Was the fluid changed when you did the other brake work? If not, I'd say you may have boiled it. If you decide that is the case you should replace the fluid - don't wait for the next time. I should be changed every 2 or 3 years according to the maintenance schedule I think. Jim Hupy makes a pressure bleeder that makes it easy I am told.
Armand Minnie
Marana, AZ
'76 Eleganza II TZE166V103202
visit my gmc blog
click here to visit gmcws.org
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| Re: brake fade [message #184859 is a reply to message #184833] |
Mon, 17 September 2012 16:21 |
Carl S.
Messages: 4186
Registered: January 2009
Location: Tucson, AZ.
Karma: 13
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| jayrabe wrote on Mon, 17 September 2012 11:26 |
As embarrassing as it is to admit what a dolt I was, I really need some advice.
I drove about 15 miles (freeway, rush hour, 25-55mph) with my emergency brake on. Towards the end I got very concerned because when I'd push the brake pedal it would go almost to the floor, but pumping it 2 or 3 times brought it back up. Got safely home, and only then noticed emergency brake on. DOH!
Front brakes recently redone by JimK with new rotors and yellow pads. Rear drums checked and OK at that time, but plan to do rear disks in near future so nothing else was done on them. Haven't checked fluid yet. Rears were pretty hot when I parked, but not THAT hot, not smoking. Emergency brake is just hooked to Drx, I think, though both sides were about same temperature. Last few miles of the drive are downhill in very slow traffic. Fronts weren't abnormally hot. Haven't driven it since.
What might cause the pedal to fade like this? What should I check first?
Thanks,
Jay "palm slapping forehead" Rabe
76 PB
Portland, OR
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Jay,
Just my experience here: I did the same thing for a longer distance. I think most of us have done this at one time or another. If your parking brake worked as poorly as mine did, and you didn't even notice you had it on, you probably didn't cause any damage. At least that was what I found when I replaced my rear drums with disc brakes, later. The linings didn't look any different than they did 5 - 6000 miles ago and before I drove with the parking brake on.
One possibility on the brake fade is that the brakes were already expanded mechanically and it was taking more fluid to fill and pressurize the wheel cylinders. The other, of course is that the heat, already mentioned, will cause the brake fluid to boil.
It would be a good idea to have a look at the bearings as Steve recommended, in case the hubs got hot enough to melt the grease. Otherwise, I doubt that you did any harm. If you do remove the hub/drum assembly, you can take a look at the brakes and see if any damage has occurred.
Carl Stouffer
'75 ex Palm Beach
Tucson, AZ.
Chuck Aulgur Reaction Arm Disc Brakes, Quadrabags, 3.70 LSD final drive, Lenzi knuckles/hubs, Dodge Truck 16" X 8" front wheels, Rear American Eagles, Solar battery charging. GMCSJ and GMCMI member
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| Re: [GMCnet] brake fade [message #184877 is a reply to message #184858] |
Mon, 17 September 2012 18:31 |
jayrabe
Messages: 509
Registered: June 2009
Location: Portland, OR
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Thanks to all. I'm assuming if I boiled brake fluid, the level in the reservoir would be down? Like I said, haven't checked it yet, will need to study the manual a bit to find out where. LOL. Did I mention I'm pretty much a non-mechanic? JimK did rear bearings when he did the quad bags. Hope I haven't wasted that work, but taking them apart to inspect is not something I've done or know how to do. The plan at this moment is for Jim Hupy to install my rear disks and check out other things when he's done traveling at the end of this month, so I'm guessing he can check the bearings then. I'll be able to drive it again on Friday and see if it's cooled and healed itself, after I figure out how to check the brake fluid. Thanks for everyone's help. Jay "learning by mistakes" Rabe 76 PB Portland, OR
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> From: armand@minniebiz.com
> Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 16:19:33 -0500
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] brake fade
>
>
>
> Was the fluid changed when you did the other brake work? If not, I'd say you may have boiled it. If you decide that is the case you should replace the fluid - don't wait for the next time. I should be changed every 2 or 3 years according to the maintenance schedule I think. Jim Hupy makes a pressure bleeder that makes it easy I am told.
> --
> Armand Minnie
> Marana, AZ
> '76 Eleganza II
> TZE166V103202
> http://www.minniebiz.com/gmcmotorhome
> use the forum - it's easy
> _______________________________________________
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| Re: [GMCnet] brake fade [message #184882 is a reply to message #184837] |
Mon, 17 September 2012 19:24 |
emerystora
Messages: 4442
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 13
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Senior Member |
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Any moisture would be absorbed into the brake fluid thus lowering the BP of the brake fluid. Moisture doesn't sit by itself and boil off.
Dragging brakes will easily heat up enough to boil the brake fluid. When it cools off it will condense any you will have brakes again. That is unless you wore down the shoes and they need adjustment.
Emery Stora
On Sep 17, 2012, at 1:38 PM, Steve Southworth <midlf@centurytel.net> wrote:
>
>
> jayrabe wrote on Mon, 17 September 2012 13:26
>> As embarrassing as it is to admit what a dolt I was, I really need some advice.
>>
>> I drove about 15 miles (freeway, rush hour, 25-55mph) with my emergency brake on. Towards the end I got very concerned because when I'd push the brake pedal it would go almost to the floor, but pumping it 2 or 3 times brought it back up. Got safely home, and only then noticed emergency brake on. DOH!
>>
>> Front brakes recently redone by JimK with new rotors and yellow pads. Rear drums checked and OK at that time, but plan to do rear disks in near future so nothing else was done on them. Haven't checked fluid yet. Rears were pretty hot when I parked, but not THAT hot, not smoking. Emergency brake is just hooked to Drx, I think, though both sides were about same temperature. Last few miles of the drive are downhill in very slow traffic. Fronts weren't abnormally hot. Haven't driven it since.
>>
>> What might cause the pedal to fade like this? What should I check first?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Jay "palm slapping forehead" Rabe
>> 76 PB
>> Portland, OR
>
>
> You had some moisture in the system (unavoidable with brake fluid) and it boiled pushing some fluid out of the rear brake cylinders. It takes several pushes on the brake pedal to pump it back up. Overall bad juju.
>
> It it was mine I would pull the rear drums and see if there was any damage, and how much wear occurred. One item to check for sure is the rear bearings. Pull them out clean and inspect them and repack with grease just to be sure. When you get new rear grease seals make sure they pass the 1/4" test.
> --
> Steve Southworth
> 1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
> 1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
> Palmyra WI
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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| Re: [GMCnet] brake fade [message #184886 is a reply to message #184877] |
Mon, 17 September 2012 19:27 |
emerystora
Messages: 4442
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 13
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Senior Member |
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No the level probably wouldn't be down unless you have a leak in the system. When you "boil" brake fluid just a little bit turns to vapor which compresses and allow the pedal to go to the floor. When it cools that vapor condenses back to liquid brake fluid and you will still have the same amount of fluid in the system.
Emery Stora
On Sep 17, 2012, at 6:31 PM, Jay Rabe <jayrabe@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Thanks to all. I'm assuming if I boiled brake fluid, the level in the reservoir would be down? Like I said, haven't checked it yet, will need to study the manual a bit to find out where. LOL. Did I mention I'm pretty much a non-mechanic? JimK did rear bearings when he did the quad bags. Hope I haven't wasted that work, but taking them apart to inspect is not something I've done or know how to do. The plan at this moment is for Jim Hupy to install my rear disks and check out other things when he's done traveling at the end of this month, so I'm guessing he can check the bearings then. I'll be able to drive it again on Friday and see if it's cooled and healed itself, after I figure out how to check the brake fluid. Thanks for everyone's help. Jay "learning by mistakes" Rabe 76 PB Portland, OR
>> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
>> From: armand@minniebiz.com
>> Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 16:19:33 -0500
>> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] brake fade
>>
>>
>>
>> Was the fluid changed when you did the other brake work? If not, I'd say you may have boiled it. If you decide that is the case you should replace the fluid - don't wait for the next time. I should be changed every 2 or 3 years according to the maintenance schedule I think. Jim Hupy makes a pressure bleeder that makes it easy I am told.
>> --
>> Armand Minnie
>> Marana, AZ
>> '76 Eleganza II
>> TZE166V103202
>> http://www.minniebiz.com/gmcmotorhome
>> use the forum - it's easy
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
> _______________________________________________
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| Re: [GMCnet] brake fade [message #184907 is a reply to message #184877] |
Mon, 17 September 2012 22:17 |
midlf
Messages: 2212
Registered: July 2007
Location: SE Wisc. (Palmyra)
Karma: 1
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| jayrabe wrote on Mon, 17 September 2012 18:31 |
Thanks to all. I'm assuming if I boiled brake fluid, the level in the reservoir would be down? Jay "learning by mistakes" Rabe 76 PB Portland, OR
|
No - as stated the level will not change. The brake fluid itself does not boil. The water that is absorbed into the brake fluid turns to steam. Pumping the brakes raises the pressure enough to force the steam back into the brake fluid. If it is too hot or too wet there may be enough steam that pumping will not be able to compress it and you will have no brakes. If you could check the brake fluid reservoir in the master cylinder at the time you had no pedal it would probably be higher. This would be because the steam would force fluid back out of the system into the reservoir.
Water in normal DOT 3/4 brake fluid is inevitable. The brake fluid is very hygroscopic. It can even pull water through rubber brake lines. As stated that is why is should be changed, by flushing the system, every 2 or 3 years. Flushing will also slow down the rust and corrosion that develops in brake systems.
Steve Southworth
1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
Palmyra WI
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| Re: [GMCnet] brake fade [message #185059 is a reply to message #184932] |
Tue, 18 September 2012 22:50 |
midlf
Messages: 2212
Registered: July 2007
Location: SE Wisc. (Palmyra)
Karma: 1
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| emerystora wrote on Tue, 18 September 2012 07:53 |
Steve
I have to disagree with you. That is a common misconception The water that may be absorbed in the brake fluid doesn't separate back out as steam. The brake fluid itself boils. In fact even if there is no additional moisture in the brake fluid it will boil when it reaches it's boiling point. Any water absorbed into the fluid will lower the boiling point of the mixture but the whole mixture will boil. The resulting vapor consists of brake fluid as well as any moisture in it.
Brake fluids are usually specified as having a certain "dry" boiling point and a certain "wet" boiling point (containing a % of water).
If you google "brake fluid boiling point" you will find a lot of information on this.
Having once been a member of the SAE and being on the Brake Fluid Committee I have a lot of knowledge in this area. We had a lot of meetings on this topic in Washington DC so that the government members could attend. Back in those days they watched their budgets and didn't travel much.
Emery
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Hmm - what you say makes sense. If a "dry" boiling point is specified then the brake fluid itself must be able to boil. The moisture just modifies that boil point. And it makes sense that it is not just the water boiling out of the fluid because then that would occur at 100C, or so.
Since we are discussing misconceptions I have always heard that the moisture could come though the rubber brake lines. Not quickly but it would permeate the rubber and then into the brake fluid. Is that correct or another war story from the pit lane?
Steve Southworth
1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
Palmyra WI
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| Re: [GMCnet] brake fade [message #185086 is a reply to message #184886] |
Wed, 19 September 2012 11:45 |
Ray E
Messages: 13
Registered: January 2006
Location: Wauwatosa, Wisconsin
Karma: 0
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Junior Member |
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Ahhhhhhhhhhhh, Emery just nailed my brake fade problem! After driving at highway speeds for awhile and then slowing down to a crawl in heavy traffic or through a campground, my pedal will sometimes go to the floor, then after awhile it's fine again. I've suspected the brake lines that run too close to the headers on the drivers side or ??? Time to shield and or insulate them.
Any recommendations ??
Ray Erspamer - 78 Royale
Wauwatosa, Wisconsin 53226
78gmc-roayale@att.net
414-484-9431
Our Web Page: http://ray-lisa.page.tl
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| Re: [GMCnet] brake fade [message #185090 is a reply to message #185086] |
Wed, 19 September 2012 12:20 |
roy1
Messages: 2126
Registered: July 2004
Location: Minden nevada
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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| RSErspamer wrote on Wed, 19 September 2012 09:45 |
Ahhhhhhhhhhhh, Emery just nailed my brake fade problem! After driving at highway speeds for awhile and then slowing down to a crawl in heavy traffic or through a campground, my pedal will sometimes go to the floor, then after awhile it's fine again. I've suspected the brake lines that run too close to the headers on the drivers side or ??? Time to shield and or insulate them.
Any recommendations ??
|
Ray that sounds like a classic case of brake fluid that is water saturated. You sure don't want to come down any steep hills till you fix it. If it were me I would flush out the old brake fluid and refill with a good dry dot 3 or 4 brake fluid.
Roy Keen
Minden,NV
76 X Glenbrook
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| Re: [GMCnet] brake fade [message #185091 is a reply to message #185090] |
Wed, 19 September 2012 12:24 |
Ray Erspamer
Messages: 1707
Registered: May 2007
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin
Karma: -3
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Senior Member |
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Thanks Roy ! I already have all of the fluid along with a new Master Cylinder,
it's on the list to flush and change.
Ray
Ray & Lisa
78 Royale "Great Lakes Eagle"
Center Kitchen TZE368V101144
Wauwatosa, Wisconsin 53226
Email: 78GMC-Royale@att.net
414-745-3188
Web Site: http://ray-lisa.page.tl/
________________________________
From: "roy@gmcnet.org" <roy@gmcnet.org>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Wed, September 19, 2012 12:20:48 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] brake fade
RSErspamer wrote on Wed, 19 September 2012 09:45
> Ahhhhhhhhhhhh, Emery just nailed my brake fade problem! After driving at
>highway speeds for awhile and then slowing down to a crawl in heavy traffic or
>through a campground, my pedal will sometimes go to the floor, then after awhile
>it's fine again. I've suspected the brake lines that run too close to the
>headers on the drivers side or ??? Time to shield and or insulate them.
>
> Any recommendations ??
Ray that sounds like a classic case of brake fluid that is water saturated. You
sure don't want to come down any steep hills till you fix it. If it were me I
would flush out the old brake fluid and refill with a good dry dot 3 or 4 brake
fluid.
--
Roy Keen
Minden,NV
76 X Glenbrook
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Ray Erspamer
78 GMC Royale Center Kitchen
403, 3.70 Final Drive
Holley Sniper Quadrajet EFI System,
Holley Hyperspark Ignition System
414-484-9431
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| Re: [GMCnet] brake fade [message #185129 is a reply to message #185091] |
Wed, 19 September 2012 21:15 |
midlf
Messages: 2212
Registered: July 2007
Location: SE Wisc. (Palmyra)
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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| Ray Erspamer wrote on Wed, 19 September 2012 12:24 |
Thanks Roy ! I already have all of the fluid along with a new Master Cylinder,
it's on the list to flush and change.
Ray
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Ray - if you have the OEM style master cylinder, not the P-30 type, I have one of the Jim Hupy power brake bleeders.
Steve Southworth
1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
Palmyra WI
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| Re: [GMCnet] brake fade [message #185155 is a reply to message #185129] |
Thu, 20 September 2012 08:12 |
 |
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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G'day,
I did quite a bit of research on this when I rebuilt the brake system in Double Trouble completely.
Here's a link to what I believe to be the best Dot 4 available:
www.ate-na.com
Here is the data on it and where you can get it:
ATE Super Blue Racing: Dry boiling point: 536°F Wet boiling point: 392°F
http://www.tirerack.com/brakes/accessoryDetail.jsp?ID=21
ATE TYP 200: Dry boiling point: 536°F Wet boiling point: 392°F
http://www.tirerack.com/brakes/accessoryDetail.jsp?ID=22
The nice bit is that it comes in two colors so when you flush it you can see when the "old" fluid has been replaced with the "fresh"
fluid.
LarryW has been using this fluid for YEARS with great success.
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Southworth
Ray Erspamer wrote on Wed, 19 September 2012 12:24
> Thanks Roy ! I already have all of the fluid along with a new Master Cylinder,
> it's on the list to flush and change.
>
> Ray
Ray - if you have the OEM style master cylinder, not the P-30 type, I have one of the Jim Hupy power brake bleeders.
--
Steve
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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