Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Uploaded video of slack in front end
| Uploaded video of slack in front end [message #183189] |
Wed, 05 September 2012 12:40  |
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RF_Burns
Messages: 2277
Registered: June 2008
Location: S. Ontario, Canada
Karma: 3
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Here is a video I took of the front end slack I was battling.
Everything was new on the front end except the bearings at this point.
The idler and relay arm were new (ok about 3000 miles) when I took this. Most of this was caused by the new "Built to OEM specs" idler arm and relay arm rocking on their pivot points.
I replaced them with Dave Lenzi rebuilts and lowered the front end so that the axle and tie rod ends were level, then most of this disappeared, although I can still move the wheels about 1/4".
http://youtu.be/bLiySgnK1uw
Bruce Hislop
ON Canada
77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.
1 ton front end
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that
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| Re: [GMCnet] Uploaded video of slack in front end [message #183321 is a reply to message #183280] |
Thu, 06 September 2012 09:25  |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Wally,
A couple of years ago I was at Dave Lenzi's home in Davison, MI. It was after I had replaced EVERYTHING with his hubs, knuckles,
relay lever, idler arm. I also replaced the lower control arms with a pair of reinforced ones from Steve Ferguson. The tie rod ends
were new, the joints at the end of the drag link were good, and there was no appreciable slack anywhere else in the steering system.
We jacked Double Trouble up until the weight was off the driver side wheel (like you did) and got the same results you did. We came
to the conclusion that the steering linkage was not in the same position as it was when the coach was on the ground which allowed
abnormal movement.
As you've noted it doesn't do it when the vehicle is on the ground.
Come to the GMCMI Convention; I'll be giving a seminar on how to find where the slack in your steering system is coming from.
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Wally Anderson
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2012 3:26 AM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Uploaded video of slack in front end
Ours does this also. One would think it would be stiffer.rf_burns wrote on Wed, 05 September 2012 12:40
> Here is a video I took of the front end slack I was battling.
>
> Everything was new on the front end except the bearings at this point.
>
> The idler and relay arm were new (ok about 3000 miles) when I took this. Most of this was caused by the new "Built to OEM specs"
idler arm and relay arm rocking on their pivot points.
>
> I replaced them with Dave Lenzi rebuilts and lowered the front end so that the axle and tie rod ends were level, then most of this
disappeared, although I can still move the wheels about 1/4".
>
> http://youtu.be/bLiySgnK1uw
--
Wally
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Uploaded video of slack in front end [message #183364 is a reply to message #183321] |
Thu, 06 September 2012 13:23 |
GMC_LES
Messages: 569
Registered: October 2009
Location: Montreal
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I'm curious about how the tierods sit when the front ride height is set to
factory specs. are all the tierods perfectly parallel to the center link,
or are they typically positioned so that the inner ends are slightly higher
than the outer ends, as many vehicles are these days?
Since handling, ride height, and steering component geometry are all
interlinked they obviously should be adressed together as a package if
someone is trying to resolve bad handling issues.
If factory ride height puts the tierods out of parallel with the center
link, then any movement in the relay & idler arms will be easier to induce
due to geometric forces. Adjusting the front ride height to put the linkage
in parallel alignment will help, but it doesn't eliminate the slop, it just
positions the linkage so that it is harder to induce the movement. It also
lessens the stress on the relay arm and Idler arm pivot bushings.
When we adjust front ride height to put the tierods parallel with the
center link, how far are we from the factory ride height spec? Also for
those who have done such an adjustment, have they adjusted the rear height
the same amount to maintain the caster?
Has anyone sucessfully removed all the slop in the GMCMH steering system?
How long did it remain that way? Is a perfect "Zero" slop system necessary
to obtain decent handling on our coaches?
--
Thanks,
Les Burt
Montreal
'75 Eleganza II 26ft
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Les Burt
Montreal
1975 Eleganza 26ft
A work in Progress
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| Re: [GMCnet] Uploaded video of slack in front end [message #183412 is a reply to message #183364] |
Thu, 06 September 2012 18:13 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Les,
1) I just looked under Double Trouble and the inners are slightly higher than the outers.
2) ABSOULTELY! That's one of the problems I've noted here, someone complains his coach wanders and people pipe up - it's the
steering box - it's the intermediate shaft - it's the steering CV joint - it's this or it's that! Unfortunately that's the SHOTGUN
method.
3) Ride height should be set as per the manual.
4) I don't mean to be disrespectful but who's "WE." I've never heard of anyone adjusting ride height to make the tie rods level.
5) I can only move the steering wheel back and forth about 3/4" TOTAL before I run out of "slop." I replaced everything in the front
suspension system, steering system, and front suspension three years ago (all Dave Lenzi's stuff). I added a pair of his offset
upper control arms and since then I'm VERY happy with the way Double Trouble drives. I don't think it's possible to get 0 slop in a
steering system.
I put together a Steering check that's on the GMCES Technical Papers that starts with the bearings in the top of the steering column
and ends up at the two outer tie rod ends.
Unfortunately I made a mistake and the tie rod end check procedure is incorrect and won't work. I revised the procedure and verified
it works 100%. With the help of Byron Songer I'll have it done for presentation at the Amana Colonies GMCMI Convention. Don't worry
Gene it will be on the GMCES website where anybody can look at it! ;-)
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: Les Burt
1) I'm curious about how the tierods sit when the front ride height is set to
factory specs. are all the tierods perfectly parallel to the center link,
or are they typically positioned so that the inner ends are slightly higher
than the outer ends, as many vehicles are these days?
2) Since handling, ride height, and steering component geometry are all
interlinked they obviously should be adressed together as a package if
someone is trying to resolve bad handling issues.
3) If factory ride height puts the tierods out of parallel with the center
link, then any movement in the relay & idler arms will be easier to induce
due to geometric forces. Adjusting the front ride height to put the linkage
in parallel alignment will help, but it doesn't eliminate the slop, it just
positions the linkage so that it is harder to induce the movement. It also
lessens the stress on the relay arm and Idler arm pivot bushings.
4) When we adjust front ride height to put the tierods parallel with the
center link, how far are we from the factory ride height spec? Also for
those who have done such an adjustment, have they adjusted the rear height
the same amount to maintain the caster?
5) Has anyone successfully removed all the slop in the GMCMH steering system?
How long did it remain that way? Is a perfect "Zero" slop system necessary
to obtain decent handling on our coaches?
--
Thanks,
Les Burt
list
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Uploaded video of slack in front end [message #183433 is a reply to message #183416] |
Thu, 06 September 2012 19:56 |
GMC_LES
Messages: 569
Registered: October 2009
Location: Montreal
Karma: 0
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I've read several times over the past few years where someone has suggested that the tie rods should be as close to parallel to the center link as is Reasonably possible. I've also read where the cv shafts should be kept as close to level as possible. To ensure either situation would require ride height adjustment so my question is how far from this "ideal" situation are we when we are set to factory ride height?
Since my coach is in pieces, I can't check for myself.
Les Burt
Montreal
On 2012-09-06, at 7:23 PM, Emery Stora <emerystora@mac.com> wrote:
> Les,
> I've never heard of anyone being concerned about the tie rods being level.
>
> You might want to be concerned that the axles are approximately level. Otherwise your CV joints will be constantly flexing with each rotation
>
> Emery Stora
>>
>>
>> From: Les Burt
>>
>>
>> 1) I'm curious about how the tierods sit when the front ride height is set to
>> factory specs. are all the tierods perfectly parallel to the center link,
>> or are they typically positioned so that the inner ends are slightly higher
>> than the outer ends, as many vehicles are these days?
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Thanks,
>> Les Burt
>> list
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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Les Burt
Montreal
1975 Eleganza 26ft
A work in Progress
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| Re: [GMCnet] Uploaded video of slack in front end [message #183434 is a reply to message #183416] |
Thu, 06 September 2012 20:16 |
sgltrac
Messages: 2797
Registered: April 2011
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The tie rods do not need to be level they do however need to be at the same angle to each other.
Sully
77 royale
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 6, 2012, at 4:23 PM, Emery Stora <emerystora@mac.com> wrote:
> Les,
> I've never heard of anyone being concerned about the tie rods being level.
>
> You might want to be concerned that the axles are approximately level. Otherwise your CV joints will be constantly flexing with each rotation
>
> Emery Stora
>>
>>
>> From: Les Burt
>>
>>
>> 1) I'm curious about how the tierods sit when the front ride height is set to
>> factory specs. are all the tierods perfectly parallel to the center link,
>> or are they typically positioned so that the inner ends are slightly higher
>> than the outer ends, as many vehicles are these days?
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Thanks,
>> Les Burt
>> list
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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Sully
77 Royale basket case.
Future motorhome land speed record holder(bucket list)
Seattle, Wa.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Uploaded video of slack in front end [message #183439 is a reply to message #183434] |
Thu, 06 September 2012 20:41 |
GMC_LES
Messages: 569
Registered: October 2009
Location: Montreal
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Using Bruce's video as an example, you can see that when the tierod is not parallel to the center link, it will apply slight vertical loads to the centerlink. If there is any slop in the relay or idler arms, this vertical load will cause the centerlink to move up and down which in turn allows the toe settings to change.
Les Burt
Montreal
On 2012-09-06, at 9:16 PM, Todd Sullivan <sgltrac@gmail.com> wrote:
> The tie rods do not need to be level they do however need to be at the same angle to each other.
>
> Sully
> 77 royale
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Sep 6, 2012, at 4:23 PM, Emery Stora <emerystora@mac.com> wrote:
>
>> Les,
>> I've never heard of anyone being concerned about the tie rods being level.
>>
>> You might want to be concerned that the axles are approximately level. Otherwise your CV joints will be constantly flexing with each rotation
>>
>> Emery Stora
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Les Burt
>>>
>>>
>>> 1) I'm curious about how the tierods sit when the front ride height is set to
>>> factory specs. are all the tierods perfectly parallel to the center link,
>>> or are they typically positioned so that the inner ends are slightly higher
>>> than the outer ends, as many vehicles are these days?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Thanks,
>>> Les Burt
>>> list
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
_______________________________________________
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Les Burt
Montreal
1975 Eleganza 26ft
A work in Progress
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| Re: [GMCnet] Uploaded video of slack in front end [message #183456 is a reply to message #183439] |
Thu, 06 September 2012 22:03 |
Kosier
Messages: 834
Registered: February 2008
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In actuality, the tie rods should be parallel to the lower control arm and
the same length center to center. Then, you will have no toe change when
the suspension moves up or down.
Gary Kosier
-----Original Message-----
From: Les Burt
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2012 9:41 PM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Uploaded video of slack in front end
Using Bruce's video as an example, you can see that when the tierod is not
parallel to the center link, it will apply slight vertical loads to the
centerlink. If there is any slop in the relay or idler arms, this vertical
load will cause the centerlink to move up and down which in turn allows the
toe settings to change.
Les Burt
Montreal
On 2012-09-06, at 9:16 PM, Todd Sullivan <sgltrac@gmail.com> wrote:
> The tie rods do not need to be level they do however need to be at the
> same angle to each other.
>
> Sully
> 77 royale
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Sep 6, 2012, at 4:23 PM, Emery Stora <emerystora@mac.com> wrote:
>
>> Les,
>> I've never heard of anyone being concerned about the tie rods being
>> level.
>>
>> You might want to be concerned that the axles are approximately level.
>> Otherwise your CV joints will be constantly flexing with each rotation
>>
>> Emery Stora
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Les Burt
>>>
>>>
>>> 1) I'm curious about how the tierods sit when the front ride height is
>>> set to
>>> factory specs. are all the tierods perfectly parallel to the center
>>> link,
>>> or are they typically positioned so that the inner ends are slightly
>>> higher
>>> than the outer ends, as many vehicles are these days?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Thanks,
>>> Les Burt
>>> list
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
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| Re: [GMCnet] Uploaded video of slack in front end [message #183497 is a reply to message #183460] |
Fri, 07 September 2012 08:39 |
GMC_LES
Messages: 569
Registered: October 2009
Location: Montreal
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That confirms my expectations. Most FWD vehicles I've serviced were similar.
Les Burt
Montreal
On 2012-09-06, at 11:18 PM, "Rob Mueller" <robmueller@iinet.net.au> wrote:
> Les,
>
> I just reset my ride height to the factory specs and
>
> a) the axles are horizontal and parallel to the ground
>
> b) the tie rods / ends are almost horizontal; slightly high on the inside.
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Les Burt
>
> I've read several times over the past few years where someone has suggested that the tie rods should be as close to parallel to the
> center link as is Reasonably possible. I've also read where the cv shafts should be kept as close to level as possible. To ensure
> either situation would require ride height adjustment so my question is how far from this "ideal" situation are we when we are set
> to factory ride height?
> Since my coach is in pieces, I can't check for myself.
>
> Les Burt
> Montreal
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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Les Burt
Montreal
1975 Eleganza 26ft
A work in Progress
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| Re: [GMCnet] Uploaded video of slack in front end [message #183512 is a reply to message #183497] |
Fri, 07 September 2012 09:55 |
sgltrac
Messages: 2797
Registered: April 2011
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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The front end of the Pig has almost zero play in the steering when supported in the center of front xmember with wheels off the ground. Attempting to wiggle from the wheels like in your video. Steering parts of unknown vintage. Some ting wong at the fixed pivot mounts on the frame maybe?
Sully
77 royale
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 7, 2012, at 6:39 AM, Les Burt <gmc.les@gmail.com> wrote:
> That confirms my expectations. Most FWD vehicles I've serviced were similar.
>
>
>
> Les Burt
> Montreal
>
>
>
> On 2012-09-06, at 11:18 PM, "Rob Mueller" <robmueller@iinet.net.au> wrote:
>
>> Les,
>>
>> I just reset my ride height to the factory specs and
>>
>> a) the axles are horizontal and parallel to the ground
>>
>> b) the tie rods / ends are almost horizontal; slightly high on the inside.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Rob M.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Les Burt
>>
>> I've read several times over the past few years where someone has suggested that the tie rods should be as close to parallel to the
>> center link as is Reasonably possible. I've also read where the cv shafts should be kept as close to level as possible. To ensure
>> either situation would require ride height adjustment so my question is how far from this "ideal" situation are we when we are set
>> to factory ride height?
>> Since my coach is in pieces, I can't check for myself.
>>
>> Les Burt
>> Montreal
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
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Sully
77 Royale basket case.
Future motorhome land speed record holder(bucket list)
Seattle, Wa.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Uploaded video of slack in front end [message #183544 is a reply to message #183456] |
Fri, 07 September 2012 12:08 |
|
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Gary,
Crikey you're right, I just checked again!
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: Kosier
In actuality, the tie rods should be parallel to the lower control arm and
the same length center to center. Then, you will have no toe change when
the suspension moves up or down.
Gary Kosier
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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