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How to determine the resistor Value for LED's [message #180962] Mon, 20 August 2012 16:41 Go to next message
John Ruff is currently offline  John Ruff   United States
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I got a couple requests for this information so I decided to post it. If you don't need to know this - don't read it. IT WILL HURT YOUR HEAD (Written by George at Circuit Specialists)

LEDs are becoming more and more popular for a variety of lighting projects and needs. This is due to the excellent power efficiency and extended life times of LEDs over incandescent lamps. Also, as the technology improves and production increases, the cost continues to be reduced.

LED is an acronym for Light Emitting Diode. This means that an LED has a specific polarity that must be applied to make it produce light. Failure to observe this polarity requirement will cause the LED to fail to light and could cause catastrophic damage to the LED. This is because an LED has a relatively low value of reverse polarity voltage that is allowed (normally about 5 volts). Since an LED is essentially a diode, it has a maximum current value that cannot be exceeded for any period of time.

With this in mind, we will explore the requirements for the limiting resistor that must be used in an LED circuit. Since LEDs are available in various colors, the required resistance value will vary depending on the color of the LED. This is because the color of the LED is determined by the materials used to make it and these various materials have different voltage characteristics. The forward voltage value is the voltage required to cause the LED to light. Typical Red, Green, Orange, and Yellow LEDs have a forward voltage of approximately 2.0 volts; but White and Blue LEDs have a forward voltage value of 3.4 volts. Because of this variation the value of resistor value will vary depending on what the LED color is. The procedure is to choose a resistor value that will produce the correct amount of current to flow in the LED based on this forward voltage value and the value of the Power supply that is powering the circuit.

Since automotive applications are one of the most popular uses for LEDs, I will go through an example for an LED lighting project that uses 12 volts as the power source. The formula required is ohm’s law which states that the Resistance is equal to the Voltage divided by the Current. The important feature to note here is that the voltage value used in the calculation is the difference between the power supply (battery) voltage and the LED’s forward voltage value. This is because we want the resistor to “drop” the voltage from the power source down to the forward voltage value of the LED. So the formula becomes

Resistor = (Battery Voltage – LED voltage) / desired LED current. So assuming a 12 volt power source and a white LED with a desired current of 10 mA; The formula becomes Resistor = (12-3.4)/.010 which is 860 ohms. Since this is not a standard value I would use an 820 ohm resistor. We also need to determine the power rating (watts) of the required resistor. This is calculated by multiplying the voltage value dropped across the resistor by the current value flowing in it. For our example above, (12-3.4) X .010 = 0.086 so we can safely use a ¼ watt resistor in this application since we should use the next highest standard wattage rating.

If more than one LED is required, multiple LEDs (of the same color) may be connected in parallel. This will maintain the same voltage requirement but the current value will increase in direct proportion to the number of LEDs. The wattage rating of the resistor may also increase. An as example we will assume the same white LED but we will connect 5 LEDs in parallel. Therefore, the current value required will be 10 mA multiplied by 5 (.010 X 5 =.050). Using this in our formula ; (12-3.4)/.050= 172 ohms. Use the standard value of 180 ohms. The wattage rating will now be higher (12-3.4) X .050 = .43 so we need to use at least a ½ watt resistor in this case.

The two examples will be repeated for Red LEDs. For a single Red LED: (12-2.0)/.010= 1000 ohms which is 1K ohms and wattage rating is (12-2.0) X (.010) = .100 so ¼ watt is sufficient. For 5 Red LEDs in parallel: (12-2.0)/.05= 200 ohms which is a standard value and wattage rating is (12-2.0) X .050 = .5 so I would use a 1 watt resistor to give us some tolerance to compensate for variations in power supply voltage etc.

As we can see, determining the resistor value for lighting LEDs is simple and straightforward, but we must take into consideration the color of the LED as well as the wattage rating of the required resistor and the number of LEDs in the circuit.


John Ruff
Chandler, AZ
1975 Eleganza
WA3RIG

If I use ZDDP in a new car - will the tappets go flat?
Re: How to determine the resistor Value for LED's [message #180978 is a reply to message #180962] Mon, 20 August 2012 18:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
A Hamilto is currently offline  A Hamilto   United States
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John Ruff wrote on Mon, 20 August 2012 16:41

...Resistor = (Battery Voltage – LED voltage) / desired LED current. So assuming a 12 volt power source and a white LED with a desired current of 10 mA; The formula becomes Resistor = (12-3.4)/.010 which is 860 ohms. Since this is not a standard value I would use an 820 ohm resistor. We also need to determine the power rating (watts) of the required resistor. This is calculated by multiplying the voltage value dropped across the resistor by the current value flowing in it. For our example above, (12-3.4) X .010 = 0.086 so we can safely use a ¼ watt resistor in this application since we should use the next highest standard wattage rating.

If more than one LED is required, multiple LEDs (of the same color) may be connected in parallel. This will maintain the same voltage requirement but the current value will increase in direct proportion to the number of LEDs. The wattage rating of the resistor may also increase. An as example we will assume the same white LED but we will connect 5 LEDs in parallel. Therefore, the current value required will be 10 mA multiplied by 5 (.010 X 5 =.050). Using this in our formula ; (12-3.4)/.050= 172 ohms. Use the standard value of 180 ohms. The wattage rating will now be higher (12-3.4) X .050 = .43 so we need to use at least a ½ watt resistor in this case. ...
What resistance would you use if you put 4 white or blue LEDs in series?
Seems like you can get more light per unit of energy from your source (usually your house battery) if you can eliminate the resistor.
Re: How to determine the resistor Value for LED's [message #180979 is a reply to message #180962] Mon, 20 August 2012 18:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
bwevers is currently offline  bwevers   United States
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White/Blue LEDS are 3.0 to 3.3V drop.
So if you have 3 in series you will have ~10V drop.
If you have 13.2V on your battery and you want 20 milliamps:

(13.2 - 10)/.02 = 160 ohms (or 150 ohm is a standard value).
Wattage rating needs to be around double the working power.
Power resistor = I x I x R = 60 milliwatts.
So you can use a 150 ohm, 1/8 watt resistor.

Also, some white/blue LEDs can use much more than 20 milliamps.
So you have to get the information from the data sheet.

Regards,
Bill


Bill Wevers GMC49ers, GMC Western States 1975 Glenbrook - Manny Powerdrive, OneTon 455 F Block, G heads San Jose
Re: How to determine the resistor Value for LED's [message #180982 is a reply to message #180979] Mon, 20 August 2012 19:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
A Hamilto is currently offline  A Hamilto   United States
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bwevers wrote on Mon, 20 August 2012 18:53

White/Blue LEDS are 3.0 to 3.3V drop.
So if you have 3 in series you will have ~10V drop.
If you have 13.2V on your battery and you want 20 milliamps:

(13.2 - 10)/.02 = 160 ohms (or 150 ohm is a standard value).
Wattage rating needs to be around double the working power.
Power resistor = I x I x R = 60 milliwatts.
So you can use a 150 ohm, 1/8 watt resistor.

Also, some white/blue LEDs can use much more than 20 milliamps.
So you have to get the information from the data sheet.

Regards,
Bill
So if I put 4 in series across a 13.2V battery, the voltage across each one will be 3.3V (assuming they are identical) and I shouldn't need a resistor.
Re: [GMCnet] How to determine the resistor Value for LED's [message #180983 is a reply to message #180978] Mon, 20 August 2012 19:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ken Henderson is currently offline  Ken Henderson   United States
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While it's true that you can put LED's in series to drop move of the
voltage and eliminate some of the wasted energy from the dropping resistor,
there's a limit to the usefulness of that method: I won't get into the EE
concept of "constant current source", but one of the benefits of a large
dropping resistor value is that it absorbs most of the voltage variation
inherent in automotive systems. For an extreme example, suppose you plan
for a 12 VDC system and put 6 each 2 VDC dropping LED's in series. Now
when the alternator puts out 14 VDC, you may very well blow one or more
diodes -- there being no series resistor to limit the current and drop that
extra 2 VDC -- and LED's have basically no current limiting ability;
they're constant voltage drop devices.

The more LED's you put in series, the more their brightness will vary with
system voltage; for stability, one LED and one resistor is series is best.

Ken H.

On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 7:42 PM, A. wrote:

> ...
> What resistance would you use if you put 4 white or blue LEDs in series?
> Seems like you can get more light per unit of energy from your source
> (usually your house battery) if you can eliminate the resistor.
> --
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Re: [GMCnet] How to determine the resistor Value for LED's [message #180987 is a reply to message #180982] Mon, 20 August 2012 19:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rssbob is currently offline  rssbob   United States
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The other problem with running them in series is that if you have 4 in series and one fails open, the whole chain have no power and no longer illuminate. Also if one of them in the series shorts it will probably take out the others until one of them opens.

On the other hand If you have them in parallel with a limiting resistor and one of them opens. The remaining three will continue to work and you can replace the defective one to get back to normal.

Bob Sobrito
1978 Palm Beach
La Mesa, Ca
antique pocket watch repair



On Aug 20, 2012, at 5:03 PM, A. wrote:

>
>
> bwevers wrote on Mon, 20 August 2012 18:53
>> White/Blue LEDS are 3.0 to 3.3V drop.
>> So if you have 3 in series you will have ~10V drop.
>> If you have 13.2V on your battery and you want 20 milliamps:
>>
>> (13.2 - 10)/.02 = 160 ohms (or 150 ohm is a standard value).
>> Wattage rating needs to be around double the working power.
>> Power resistor = I x I x R = 60 milliwatts.
>> So you can use a 150 ohm, 1/8 watt resistor.
>>
>> Also, some white/blue LEDs can use much more than 20 milliamps.
>> So you have to get the information from the data sheet.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Bill
> So if I put 4 in series across a 13.2V battery, the voltage across each one will be 3.3V (assuming they are identical) and I shouldn't need a resistor.
> --
> '73 23' CanyonLands
> UA (Upper Alabama)
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Re: How to determine the resistor Value for LED's [message #180988 is a reply to message #180962] Mon, 20 August 2012 19:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
bwevers is currently offline  bwevers   United States
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The problem with putting 4 LEDs in series is that
LED voltage will drop as they warm up.
So they will light up at first with 13.2 volts, and
then get brighter as they warm up, until they burn up.
Also, the alternator will put out up to 14.4 volts when
it's charging. So that's why they have resistors or
some other device to limit current.
Regards,
Bill



Bill Wevers GMC49ers, GMC Western States 1975 Glenbrook - Manny Powerdrive, OneTon 455 F Block, G heads San Jose
Re: [GMCnet] How to determine the resistor Value for LED's [message #180993 is a reply to message #180982] Mon, 20 August 2012 19:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ken Henderson is currently offline  Ken Henderson   United States
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Theoretically, yes, but in practice it won't work. Assume that you really
do have 3 LED's with 3.3 VDC forward drops. As soon as the voltage climbs
to 13.3 VDC, the LED's will draw more and more current, trying to maintain
those 3.3 VDC drops. Very shortly, that excessive current will, literally,
melt one of the PN junctions and that LED will die forever.

More likely, you'll have LED's with 3.0, 3.1, 3.2, and 3.3 VDC drops so
that your 13.2 VDC will already be imposing 13.2-12.6=0.6 VDC excess
voltage on the chain. Even that small excess can overheat the diodes and
one of them will fail, perhaps taking out others.

You really do need a constant current source such as a resistor with as
much voltage drop across it as possible (for a theoretically perfect
constant current source, the voltage would have to be infinite -- I
promised earlier not to say that!!!) .

Ken H.


On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 8:03 PM, A. wrote:

> So if I put 4 in series across a 13.2V battery, the voltage across each
> one will be 3.3V (assuming they are identical) and I shouldn't need a
> resistor.
> --
>
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76 X-Palm Beach
Re: [GMCnet] How to determine the resistor Value for LED's [message #181010 is a reply to message #180993] Mon, 20 August 2012 21:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
tphipps is currently offline  tphipps   United States
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Vellerman makes a simple kit, available at Radio Shack, that is a constant current device, and is designed for either 1 watt or 3 watt LEDs.
Tom, MS II


2012 Phoenix Cruiser model 2552 KA4CSG

[Updated on: Mon, 20 August 2012 21:53]

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Re: How to determine the resistor Value for LED's [message #181032 is a reply to message #180962] Mon, 20 August 2012 23:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
kerry pinkerton is currently offline  kerry pinkerton   United States
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You're right...my head hurts... Shocked Laughing

Ok, at the Street Rod Nationals last month, I picked up some LED repacement bulbs with the 1157 bulb form factor, side pins and two contacts. They also had replacement LEDs.

Is it save to assume (Yeah, I know what happens when you Ass U Me) that these bulbs are designed to work without special resistors?


Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
Re: How to determine the resistor Value for LED's [message #181035 is a reply to message #181032] Tue, 21 August 2012 00:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
crash24 is currently offline  crash24   Canada
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Kerry,
I think you will find the resistors are inside where your can not see them.


My neighbor left one of these on a customers car when he drove away.

http://www.harborfreight.com/27-led-portable-worklight-flashlight-67227.html

When he came back 3 days later it was still on, but almost dead.

I bought 12 when they were on sale for $2.69 each and as they were powered by 4.5V have 3 units in series grouped together for reading lights. I eliminated the 1.5V batteries and find they draw 2ma @ 12V and provide plenty of light. My old fluorescent lights drew 200ma, but did give a warmer light.
Re: How to determine the resistor Value for LED's [message #181040 is a reply to message #181032] Tue, 21 August 2012 02:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ken Burton is currently offline  Ken Burton   United States
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Kerry Pinkerton wrote on Mon, 20 August 2012 23:43

You're right...my head hurts... Shocked Laughing

Ok, at the Street Rod Nationals last month, I picked up some LED replacement bulbs with the 1157 bulb form factor, side pins and two contacts. They also had replacement LEDs.

Is it safe to assume (Yeah, I know what happens when you Ass U Me) that these bulbs are designed to work without special resistors?


You are correct BUT...

Be aware that your turn signals may not flash correctly. Some people replace their flasher with a variable load flasher when installing LED bulbs. Others add load resistors externally to simulate the real bulb loads. These added resistors are NOT to limit the current to the LEDs in the bulbs. They are to increase the current in the circuit to keep the flasher happy.


Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
Re: [GMCnet] How to determine the resistor Value for LED's [message #181051 is a reply to message #181032] Tue, 21 August 2012 06:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jhbridges is currently offline  jhbridges   United States
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Take your trusty ohmmeter and measure their resistance, then reverse the leads and do it agaion.  If one direction gives about .5 ohms or so, no resistor.  If one way is like several hndred Ohms and the other is like infinite, there's a several hundred Ohm current limiting resistor already in the bulb, it's plug compatible.
 
--johnny
'76 23' transmode nborris
'76 palm beach

From: Kerry Pinkerton <Pinkertonk@MCHSI.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2012 12:43 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] How to determine the resistor Value for LED's



You're right...my head hurts... 8o  :lol:

Ok, at the Street Rod Nationals last month, I picked up some LED repacement bulbs with the 1157 bulb form factor, side pins and two contacts.  They also had replacement LEDs.

Is it save to assume (Yeah, I know what happens when you Ass U Me) that these bulbs are designed to work without special resistors?
--
Kerry Pinkerton

North Alabama, near Huntsville,

73 Sequoia 23' "The Beast", 60K mile original coach.

76 Eleganza being rebodied as an Art Deco car hauler
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Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons. Braselton, Ga. I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
Re: How to determine the resistor Value for LED's [message #181058 is a reply to message #180962] Tue, 21 August 2012 08:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
John Ruff is currently offline  John Ruff   United States
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Wow! I didn't know this would generate so much fun! We sure have an abundance of electronic geeks on our forum Smile

So now......... Examples of wiring LED's in Parallel Smile


John Ruff
Chandler, AZ
1975 Eleganza
WA3RIG

If I use ZDDP in a new car - will the tappets go flat?
Re: [GMCnet] How to determine the resistor Value for LED's [message #181079 is a reply to message #181058] Tue, 21 August 2012 10:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jhbridges is currently offline  jhbridges   United States
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Easy - one resistor per LED, in series with it.  Parallel as many combinations of this as you like across the 12V supply.  Do >not< try one resistor for several parallelled LEDs unless you are sure they have the same junction characteristics - which they probably won't unless they all came off the same die.  Resistors are cheeeeep, three or five bux a hundred.  Use them.
 
--johnny
'76 23' transmiode norris
'76 palm beach

From: John Ruff <j_r_ruff@yahoo.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2012 9:06 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] How to determine the resistor Value for LED's



Wow!  I didn't know this would generate so much fun!  We sure have an abundance of electronic geeks on our forum :)

So now.........  Examples of wiring LED's in Parallel :)
--
John Ruff
Noxen, PA
1975 Eleganza
WA3RIG


If I use ZDDP in a new car - will the tappets go flat?
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Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons. Braselton, Ga. I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
Re: How to determine the resistor Value for LED's [message #181090 is a reply to message #181035] Tue, 21 August 2012 10:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
A Hamilto is currently offline  A Hamilto   United States
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crash24 wrote on Tue, 21 August 2012 00:42

Kerry,
I think you will find the resistors are inside where your can not see them.


My neighbor left one of these on a customers car when he drove away.

http://www.harborfreight.com/27-led-portable-worklight-flashlight-67227.html

When he came back 3 days later it was still on, but almost dead.

I bought 12 when they were on sale for $2.69 each and as they were powered by 4.5V have 3 units in series grouped together for reading lights. I eliminated the 1.5V batteries and find they draw 2ma @ 12V and provide plenty of light. My old fluorescent lights drew 200ma, but did give a warmer light.
For that price I wouldn't have any reservations about breaking into one to find out how its wired, and the size of the resistor (if there is one).
Re: How to determine the resistor Value for LED's [message #181095 is a reply to message #181040] Tue, 21 August 2012 11:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
habbyguy is currently offline  habbyguy   United States
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Ken Burton wrote on Tue, 21 August 2012 00:06

Be aware that your turn signals may not flash correctly. Some people replace their flasher with a variable load flasher when installing LED bulbs. Others add load resistors externally to simulate the real bulb loads. These added resistors are NOT to limit the current to the LEDs in the bulbs. They are to increase the current in the circuit to keep the flasher happy.

Ken's right, of course. But there's also another reason you might need the parallel "current-increasing" resistor. Cars like my BMW monitor the current through virtually every circuit, and will detect the much lower current drain of a LED bulb as a failed bulb, and will pop up warning indicators accordingly. So if you opt for LED lamps, you are faced with a choice between having to wire in additional resistors or living with a dash full of failed light indicators.


Mark Hickey Mesa, AZ 1978 Royale Center Kitchen
Re: How to determine the resistor Value for LED's [message #181210 is a reply to message #181090] Tue, 21 August 2012 22:19 Go to previous message
crash24 is currently offline  crash24   Canada
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There are resistors in the two separate circuits in each lamp. I forget the values, as I just left them in the circuit and put the 3 lamps in series. I took the 3 LEDs out of the end of each light and after wiring them in parallel with the other 24, glued them into my old fluorescent fixture.
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