Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] The Generac Follies
| [GMCnet] The Generac Follies [message #179982] |
Sun, 12 August 2012 17:49  |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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I pulled the Generac out to see why it wouldn't start. Reasonably easy in - out, but once out what a PIA that thing is! Built to a price point for ease of
manufacture. The crankcase, head, and sleeve are cast, everything else is stamped or sheared and punched steel sheet or plate. One shaft, with the genset rotor - permanent magnet - on the top, fan cast onna bottom. Flywheel on top with a plastic fan
The starter bracket, which is a ring of stamped steel with indents and one end broken 90 degrees with mounting holes punched in it, is broken.. Starter mounts to it using the two long bolts which hold the starter together. It failed at the holes for these bolts. So, I need a starter mount bracket. I don't think welding this one is the answer - this is the weakest piece of the bracket, and it's taking the stress of the starter from those bolts. I suspect any of the Generac 3600 or 4 kw RV sets fit the same starter and bracket. This'n is a 36G Generac RV genset.
The compartment is lined with fiberglas insulation. I'm gonna tie it down with either expanded metal or tin. With short screws and fender washers.
Meantime, measurement of my Kohler 4500 and Yamamamaha 5500 is in progress, with an eye to upgrading. Putting the Generac back is kind of a last choice.
--johnny
'76 23' transmode norris
'76 palm beach
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Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] The Generac Follies [message #179996 is a reply to message #179982] |
Sun, 12 August 2012 19:14  |
midlf
Messages: 2212
Registered: July 2007
Location: SE Wisc. (Palmyra)
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| Johnny Bridges wrote on Sun, 12 August 2012 17:49 |
I pulled the Generac out to see why it wouldn't start. Reasonably easy in - out, but once out what a PIA that thing is! Built to a price point for ease of manufacture.
--johnny
'76 23' transmode norris
'76 palm beach
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You spelled it wrong. Should be spelled Junkerac. Much of Generac's line is "consumer grade". Some of their big stuff is made to a higher standard but I suspect it is still trying to get to a price point to undercut the competition, perhaps with similar results. They are a major employer all around me.
Steve Southworth
1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
Palmyra WI
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| Re: [GMCnet] The Generac Follies [message #179998 is a reply to message #179996] |
Sun, 12 August 2012 19:18 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Familiar with the moniker, when we buy a plant with a Generac in, we budget a new genset. Onan works good, we got a couple Kohlers that do all right. I bought a used 200KW Kohler that looks new - 55 hours on the clock - for right around half the price of a new one. It was built to manufacture and throw away. Hopefully the Kohler will fit. 1800 RPM thumper.
--johnny
'76 23' transmode norris
'76 palm beach
From: Steve Southworth <midlf@centurytel.net>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2012 8:14 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] The Generac Follies
Johnny Bridges wrote on Sun, 12 August 2012 17:49
> I pulled the Generac out to see why it wouldn't start. Reasonably easy in - out, but once out what a PIA that thing is! Built to a price point for ease of manufacture.
> --johnny
>
> '76 23' transmode norris
> '76 palm beach
You spelled it wrong. Should be spelled Junkerac. Much of Generac's line is "consumer grade". Some of their big stuff is made to a higher standard but I suspect it is still trying to get to a price point to undercut the competition, perhaps with similar results. They are a major employer all around me.
--
Steve Southworth
1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
Palmyra WI
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Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] The Generac Follies [message #179999 is a reply to message #179998] |
Sun, 12 August 2012 19:19 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Uh. "It" being the Generac, not the Kohler
--johnny
From: Johnny Bridges <jhbridges@ymail.com>
To: "gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org" <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2012 8:18 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] The Generac Follies
Familiar with the moniker, when we buy a plant with a Generac in, we budget a new genset. Onan works good, we got a couple Kohlers that do all right. I bought a used 200KW Kohler that looks new - 55 hours on the clock - for right around half the price of a new one. It was built to manufacture and throw away. Hopefully the Kohler will fit. 1800 RPM thumper.
--johnny
'76 23' transmode norris
'76 palm beach
From: Steve Southworth <midlf@centurytel.net>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2012 8:14 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] The Generac Follies
Johnny Bridges wrote on Sun, 12 August 2012 17:49
> I pulled the Generac out to see why it wouldn't start. Reasonably easy in - out, but once out what a PIA that thing is! Built to a price point for ease of manufacture.
> --johnny
>
> '76 23' transmode norris
> '76 palm beach
You spelled it wrong. Should be spelled Junkerac. Much of Generac's line is "consumer grade". Some of their big stuff is made to a higher standard but I suspect it is still trying to get to a price point to undercut the competition, perhaps with similar results. They are a major employer all around me.
--
Steve Southworth
1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
Palmyra WI
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Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] The Generac Follies [message #180039 is a reply to message #179999] |
Mon, 13 August 2012 07:04 |
Jim Bounds
Messages: 842
Registered: January 2004
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As Nixon once said, "You won;t have me to kick around any longer"-- Generac has cancelled their entire RV generator line and is getting out of the business. This is a blow to me, I was starting to warm up to the 50G. nope, now all that willbe new will be "Oh man" Onans! Currently, I am still using Honda generators getting them wherever I can. I think I would rather have a used but refurbished Honda any day than a new Onan! They just don;t fit well and the company just does not care! Any part you buy is big bucks, there is no reasonable way to get parts and God help you if you take your generator to Cummins/Onan!
At least the Generac units were inexpensive compared and after a couple of yours you could pitch the beast without feeling you lost something valuable! A similar Onan will cost you 2 times the cost and I do not think you are getting value. Value-- at least you would have a running generator, that's what the company hopes you say. I don;t know if that is true. Anyway, forget Generac, they are gone for us...
Jim Bounds
--------------------
________________________________
From: Johnny Bridges <jhbridges@ymail.com>
To: "gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org" <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2012 8:19 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] The Generac Follies
Uh. "It" being the Generac, not the Kohler
--johnny
From: Johnny Bridges <jhbridges@ymail.com>
To: "gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org" <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2012 8:18 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] The Generac Follies
Familiar with the moniker, when we buy a plant with a Generac in, we budget a new genset. Onan works good, we got a couple Kohlers that do all right. I bought a used 200KW Kohler that looks new - 55 hours on the clock - for right around half the price of a new one. It was built to manufacture and throw away. Hopefully the Kohler will fit. 1800 RPM thumper.
--johnny
'76 23' transmode norris
'76 palm beach
From: Steve Southworth <midlf@centurytel.net>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2012 8:14 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] The Generac Follies
Johnny Bridges wrote on Sun, 12 August 2012 17:49
> I pulled the Generac out to see why it wouldn't start. Reasonably easy in - out, but once out what a PIA that thing is! Built to a price point for ease of manufacture.
> --johnny
>
> '76 23' transmode norris
> '76 palm beach
You spelled it wrong. Should be spelled Junkerac. Much of Generac's line is "consumer grade". Some of their big stuff is made to a higher standard but I suspect it is still trying to get to a price point to undercut the competition, perhaps with similar results. They are a major employer all around me.
--
Steve Southworth
1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
Palmyra WI
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| Re: [GMCnet] The Generac Follies [message #180078 is a reply to message #180039] |
Mon, 13 August 2012 11:27 |
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hnielsen2
Messages: 1434
Registered: February 2004
Location: Alpine CA
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Jim
Not good news here.
We run a Generac with just over 400 hours not a problem yet.
I do change the oil often and have an after market fan mounted on the
generator cover.
We have had the Generac shut down from over heating before the fan was
installed.
All is well with my Lord
Signing checks on the front
Howard
26' Canyon Lands
Alpine Ca
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Bounds" <gmccoop@yahoo.com>
To: <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2012 05:04
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] The Generac Follies
As Nixon once said, "You won;t have me to kick around any longer"-- Generac
has cancelled their entire RV generator line and is getting out of the
business. This is a blow to me, I was starting to warm up to the 50G. nope,
now all that willbe new will be "Oh man" Onans! Currently, I am still using
Honda generators getting them wherever I can. I think I would rather have a
used but refurbished Honda any day than a new Onan! They just don;t fit well
and the company just does not care! Any part you buy is big bucks, there is
no reasonable way to get parts and God help you if you take your generator
to Cummins/Onan!
At least the Generac units were inexpensive compared and after a couple of
yours you could pitch the beast without feeling you lost something valuable!
A similar Onan will cost you 2 times the cost and I do not think you are
getting value. Value-- at least you would have a running generator, that's
what the company hopes you say. I don;t know if that is true. Anyway, forget
Generac, they are gone for us...
Jim Bounds
--------------------
________________________________
From: Johnny Bridges <jhbridges@ymail.com>
To: "gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org" <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2012 8:19 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] The Generac Follies
Uh. "It" being the Generac, not the Kohler
--johnny
From: Johnny Bridges <jhbridges@ymail.com>
To: "gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org" <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2012 8:18 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] The Generac Follies
Familiar with the moniker, when we buy a plant with a Generac in, we budget
a new genset. Onan works good, we got a couple Kohlers that do all right. I
bought a used 200KW Kohler that looks new - 55 hours on the clock - for
right around half the price of a new one. It was built to manufacture and
throw away. Hopefully the Kohler will fit. 1800 RPM thumper.
--johnny
'76 23' transmode norris
'76 palm beach
From: Steve Southworth <midlf@centurytel.net>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2012 8:14 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] The Generac Follies
Johnny Bridges wrote on Sun, 12 August 2012 17:49
> I pulled the Generac out to see why it wouldn't start. Reasonably easy
> in - out, but once out what a PIA that thing is! Built to a price point
> for ease of manufacture.
> --johnny
>
> '76 23' transmode norris
> '76 palm beach
You spelled it wrong. Should be spelled Junkerac. Much of Generac's line is
"consumer grade". Some of their big stuff is made to a higher standard but I
suspect it is still trying to get to a price point to undercut the
competition, perhaps with similar results. They are a major employer all
around me.
--
Steve Southworth
1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
Palmyra WI
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All is well with my Lord
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| Re: [GMCnet] The Generac Follies [message #180082 is a reply to message #180039] |
Mon, 13 August 2012 11:38 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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Actually, I get decent pricing and good service from Onan- but they maintain some several BIG sets for me so we get something of a break. They're still overpriced. I haven't seen an 1800 or 3600 Hondooooo, they seem to all be inverter gensets which I'm not really crazy about... lousy surge ability and they're complex. Many of the 'contractor' type sets have Hionda engines on them, which I'll take secondary to a Briggs. Any chance you got a dead 36G you'll sell the starter bracket off of?
--johnny
'76 23' transmode norris
'76 palm beach
From: Jim Bounds <gmccoop@yahoo.com>
To: "gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org" <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2012 8:04 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] The Generac Follies
As Nixon once said, "You won;t have me to kick around any longer"-- Generac has cancelled their entire RV generator line and is getting out of the business. This is a blow to me, I was starting to warm up to the 50G. nope, now all that willbe new will be "Oh man" Onans! Currently, I am still using Honda generators getting them wherever I can. I think I would rather have a used but refurbished Honda any day than a new Onan! They just don;t fit well and the company just does not care! Any part you buy is big bucks, there is no reasonable way to get parts and God help you if you take your generator to Cummins/Onan!
At least the Generac units were inexpensive compared and after a couple of yours you could pitch the beast without feeling you lost something valuable! A similar Onan will cost you 2 times the cost and I do not think you are getting value. Value-- at least you would have a running generator, that's what the company hopes you say. I don;t know if that is true. Anyway, forget Generac, they are gone for us...
Jim Bounds
--------------------
________________________________
From: Johnny Bridges <jhbridges@ymail.com>
To: "gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org" <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2012 8:19 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] The Generac Follies
Uh. "It" being the Generac, not the Kohler
--johnny
From: Johnny Bridges <jhbridges@ymail.com>
To: "gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org" <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2012 8:18 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] The Generac Follies
Familiar with the moniker, when we buy a plant with a Generac in, we budget a new genset. Onan works good, we got a couple Kohlers that do all right. I bought a used 200KW Kohler that looks new - 55 hours on the clock - for right around half the price of a new one. It was built to manufacture and throw away. Hopefully the Kohler will fit. 1800 RPM thumper.
--johnny
'76 23' transmode norris
'76 palm beach
From: Steve Southworth <midlf@centurytel.net>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2012 8:14 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] The Generac Follies
Johnny Bridges wrote on Sun, 12 August 2012 17:49
> I pulled the Generac out to see why it wouldn't start. Reasonably easy in - out, but once out what a PIA that thing is! Built to a price point for ease of manufacture.
> --johnny
>
> '76 23' transmode norris
> '76 palm beach
You spelled it wrong. Should be spelled Junkerac. Much of Generac's line is "consumer grade". Some of their big stuff is made to a higher standard but I suspect it is still trying to get to a price point to undercut the competition, perhaps with similar results. They are a major employer all around me.
--
Steve Southworth
1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
Palmyra WI
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Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
|
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| Re: [GMCnet] The Generac Follies [message #180231 is a reply to message #179982] |
Tue, 14 August 2012 13:34 |
Ek_Lektro
Messages: 167
Registered: March 2011
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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I picked up this thread kinda late… (and couldn't find the original post)…
and i have a few quick questions:
So if i understand this correctly, Generac has discontinued its GMC-compatible (pull-out capable) model...
and so Honda and Onan are the only current models now to choose from?
And.. sounds like the Honda choice would be limited to used models,
since they have also discontinued GMC-compatible models?
(Sure, i know, let's define "compatible".. and by this i'd mean something that'd
fit in the place of the 'ole Onan "Power-Drawer"… without major modifications to the whole area!)
Maybe i'd just carry on with my Onan(s), which seem to just keep running.
However, "fuel economy" is the main consideration, and i've heard it said that the 6k Onan
consumes about 1.5 gallons per hour, and the 4k is more like 1.0 gallon per hour,
and then the Generac (or Honda or modern-day Onan) are about 1/3 gallon per hour, under average load…
Do these figures sound about right?
If we can't find a deal on a Generac or Honda, then
we might take the Onan 4k from the Birch and put it on the Eleganza, since we don't ever run
dual roof airs…
Any insights appreciated, thanks!
Greg
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| Re: [GMCnet] The Generac Follies [message #180240 is a reply to message #179982] |
Tue, 14 August 2012 15:16 |
GeorgeRud
Messages: 1380
Registered: February 2007
Location: Chicago, IL
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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It seems our choices are quickly coming down to the Onan or nothing! I installed a Generac Prime-PAC last year with Miguel Mendez's long distance help, and so far so good. I needed to run it for 3 days straight when we had a power outage in our neighborhood last year, and it did a great job for me.
I think that some of these are still a available (Norwall Power Systems helped me out when I bought mine), but I don't know what the current stock is like. They do fit nicely in a 26 foot GMC generator compartment.
There must not e a lot of profit in the RV market these days as it seems more and more manufacturers are dropping out of the marketplace. You'd think that there would be a good market for replacement units with all the RVs out there, but I assume the OE market must be quite slow these days.
Solar may end up being the most available option at this rate.
George Rudawsky
Chicago, IL
75 Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] The Generac Follies [message #180284 is a reply to message #180249] |
Tue, 14 August 2012 19:34 |
tphipps
Messages: 3005
Registered: August 2004
Location: Spanish Fort, AL
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Honda models are ev4010 (4kw) and ev6010 (6kw). California Carb rules killed them off. Company in Tampa reManufactures them, expect to pay high $.
Search Craig's list, they do show up. Parts situation is still good. Blown head gasket equals probable bad head.
Fit very well in 26' generator compartment. Many out there in GMC land. I know of several.
I have one to work on.
Tom, MS II
2012 Phoenix Cruiser model 2552
KA4CSG
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| Re: [GMCnet] The Generac Follies [message #180319 is a reply to message #180231] |
Wed, 15 August 2012 00:18 |
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ljdavick
Messages: 3548
Registered: March 2007
Location: Fremont, CA
Karma: -3
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Senior Member |
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I had always understood, though never verified, that the 6kw Onan drinks about 1 gallon per hour.
Larry Davick
A Mystery Machine
1976(ish) Palm Beach
Fremont, CA
On Aug 14, 2012, at 11:34 AM, Ek_Lektro <eklektro@gmail.com> wrote:
> I picked up this thread kinda late… (and couldn't find the original post)…
> and i have a few quick questions:
>
> So if i understand this correctly, Generac has discontinued its GMC-compatible (pull-out capable) model...
> and so Honda and Onan are the only current models now to choose from?
> And.. sounds like the Honda choice would be limited to used models,
> since they have also discontinued GMC-compatible models?
> (Sure, i know, let's define "compatible".. and by this i'd mean something that'd
> fit in the place of the 'ole Onan "Power-Drawer"… without major modifications to the whole area!)
>
> Maybe i'd just carry on with my Onan(s), which seem to just keep running.
> However, "fuel economy" is the main consideration, and i've heard it said that the 6k Onan
> consumes about 1.5 gallons per hour, and the 4k is more like 1.0 gallon per hour,
> and then the Generac (or Honda or modern-day Onan) are about 1/3 gallon per hour, under average load…
> Do these figures sound about right?
> If we can't find a deal on a Generac or Honda, then
> we might take the Onan 4k from the Birch and put it on the Eleganza, since we don't ever run
> dual roof airs…
> Any insights appreciated, thanks!
> Greg
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
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Larry Davick
A Mystery Machine
1976(ish) Palm Beach
Fremont, Ca
Howell EFI + EBL + Electronic Dizzy
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| Re: [GMCnet] The Generac Follies [message #180333 is a reply to message #180287] |
Wed, 15 August 2012 06:45 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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I put one of those in a remote truck.... liked it. The FI starts always instantly hot or cold and runs evenly. It's a belt drive, but Onan warrants the belt for the luife of the set in an RV. In commercial use, warranty is five years. They say if it has a tolet, it's an RV.
--johnny
'76 23' transmode norris
'76 palm beach
From: Sammy Williams <bd5av8r@gmail.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 8:53 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] The Generac Follies
The "Onan Marquis platinum 7000" has fuel injection, sounds nice, I am
sure the price is astronomical, too. But it will run two A/Cs a
microwave and your HDtv/DVD with no problem at all. :)
S. Williams
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Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] The Generac Follies [message #180336 is a reply to message #180319] |
Wed, 15 August 2012 07:22 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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| ljdavick wrote on Wed, 15 August 2012 01:18 |
I had always understood, though never verified, that the 6kw Onan drinks about 1 gallon per hour.
Larry Davick
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Larry,
That would be safe, but I can pretty much assure you that it is inaccurate and a very high estimate.
I did this test yesterday. My 4.0BF burned about 1/2 a gallon per hour running the roof air. The 6.0NH just cannot be that much more without running really rich (like making black smoke rich). My guess would be that an NH running both roof units at max might - Might - burn 3/4 G/Hr if it is in poor condition, still has points, it is really hot and you are over 4K MSL.
Specifics:
Onan 4.0BF, Unknown total hours, Pertronix set at 26°BTC
Baro 29.08 OAT 70°F 628'MSL
Fuel pump gas 87 6%Ahol, 70.17°API (SG 0.701) Temp 72°F
IAT 72°F on governor at 60.1 to 60.8 Hz
Calculated Fuel Rates:
with 15K Carrier at Max 0.49 G/Hr
with 15K Carrier at Low 0.47 G/Hr
At minimum load 0.32 G/hr
I did not measure the actual power load of the A/C as I was not really interested. All I wanted to know was how much trouble the A/C could cause in my fuel management.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] The Generac Follies [message #180360 is a reply to message #179982] |
Wed, 15 August 2012 11:09 |
habbyguy
Messages: 896
Registered: May 2012
Location: Mesa, AZ
Karma: 3
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Senior Member |
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I've got the Onan Emerald Plus (6500 watt) manual here, and they list the fuel consumption specs for no load, half load and full load for the various models. I'll list each model below, and then the no/half/full load consumption numbers in gallons per hour...
BGE4000 - 0.3/0.5/0.8
BGE5000 - 0.3/0.5/0.8
NHE5000 - 0.4/0.7/1.0
NHE6500 - 0.4/0.7/1.3
UPDATE: I neglected to make it absolutely clear that the above numbers are for the Emerald line of generators, which might be somewhat different than other Onan models, though I'd be surprised if there's a big difference.
Mark Hickey
Mesa, AZ
1978 Royale Center Kitchen
[Updated on: Wed, 15 August 2012 17:33] Report message to a moderator |
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