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| [GMCnet] RV Batteries and Boondocking [message #174524] |
Mon, 25 June 2012 11:12  |
Peter Garry
Messages: 138
Registered: July 2011
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Hi all,
Has anybody considered lithium ion batteries? From my googles I find the following.
1. Lead acid batteries should only be discharged to 50% So for 100amp for (@ 20hrs) one would require 200 amp hr capacity.
2. AGM or sealed batteries that do not out-gas are more expensive than "regular" flooded lead acid batteries. 2, 6v for 225 amp hrs would run about $600, the weight being about 130 lbs
3. lithium ion batteries can be discharged to 20% So for 100 amp hrs a 120 amp hr rated battery would do. A 12v lithium ion battery 100 amp hr is $1,300 and weighs in at 33 lbs.
The lithium ion batteries have a much longer charge/recharge life and can be charged much quicker. Less batteries, less weight, longer life but double the cost. Worth it?
Comments from the GMCnet would be bappreciated.
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| Re: [GMCnet] RV Batteries and Boondocking [message #174528 is a reply to message #174524] |
Mon, 25 June 2012 11:56  |
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John Heslinga
Messages: 632
Registered: February 2011
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Karma: 4
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Peter:
I had 150 laptop computers that I looked after in a high school situation. After 2 years I needed 100 battery packs. All lithium ion. After the third I needed 25 more. I've found the same with a few tools I have. Being that some have Lithium ion batteries, This has always made me wonder about the hybrid vehicles out there, and resulted in my zero interest in purchasing one.
I usually have lead acid batteries last 5 to 7 years or more.
(just my observations and experience)
John and Cathie Heslinga
1974 Canyonlands 260
455, Manny tranny and 1 ton, 3:70 LS,
Red Seal Journeyman, DTE, BEd. MEd.
Edmonton, Alberta
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| Re: [GMCnet] RV Batteries and Boondocking [message #174566 is a reply to message #174528] |
Mon, 25 June 2012 17:07 |
eljefeweizen
Messages: 9
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Junior Member |
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Prius owner here. The traction battery in the Prius is a nickel metal hydride (NiMH) battery warranted for 8 years or 100,000 miles.
From a Wikipedia article on the Prius:
"As the Prius reached ten years of being available in the U.S. market, in February 2011 Consumer Reports decided to look at the lifetime of the Prius battery and the cost to replace it. The magazine tested a 2002 Toyota Prius with over 200,000 miles on it, and compared the results to the nearly identical 2001 Prius with 2,000 miles tested by Consumer Reports 10 years before. The comparison showed little difference in performance when tested for fuel economy and acceleration. Overall fuel economy of the 2001 model was 40.6 miles per US gallon (5.79 L/100 km; 48.8 mpg-imp) while the 2002 Prius with high mileage delivered 40.4 miles per US gallon (5.82 L/100 km; 48.5 mpg-imp). The magazine concluded that the effectiveness of the battery has not degraded over the long run.[99]"
On Jun 25, 2012, at 11:56 AM, John Heslinga wrote:
>
>
> Peter:
>
> I had 150 laptop computers that I looked after in a high school situation. After 2 years I needed 100 battery packs. All lithium ion. After the third I needed 25 more. I've found the same with a few tools I have. Being that some have Lithium ion batteries, This has always made me wonder about the hybrid vehicles out there, and resulted in my zero interest in purchasing one.
>
> I usually have lead acid batteries last 5 to 7 years or more.
>
> (just my observations and experience)
> --
> John and Cathie Heslinga
> 1974 Canyonlands 260
> TC4W "Too Cool For Words"
> Retirement Projects Galore
> Edmonton, Alberta
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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| Re: [GMCnet] RV Batteries and Boondocking [message #174568 is a reply to message #174566] |
Mon, 25 June 2012 17:32 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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| eljefeweizen wrote on Mon, 25 June 2012 18:07 |
Prius owner here. The traction battery in the Prius is a nickel metal hydride (NiMH) battery warranted for 8 years or 100,000 miles.
From a Wikipedia article on the Prius:
"As the Prius reached ten years of being available in the U.S. market, in February 2011 Consumer Reports decided to look at the lifetime of the Prius battery and the cost to replace it. The magazine tested a 2002 Toyota Prius with over 200,000 miles on it, and compared the results to the nearly identical 2001 Prius with 2,000 miles tested by Consumer Reports 10 years before. The comparison showed little difference in performance when tested for fuel economy and acceleration. Overall fuel economy of the 2001 model was 40.6 miles per US gallon (5.79 L/100 km; 48.8 mpg-imp) while the 2002 Prius with high mileage delivered 40.4 miles per US gallon (5.82 L/100 km; 48.5 mpg-imp). The magazine concluded that the effectiveness of the battery has not degraded over the long run.[99]"
> --
> John and Cathie Heslinga
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John,
I saw and read that report in CS as well.
Unfortunately, it occurred to me that CS is (or was) in White Plains, NY. The problem with the Prius is its highway performance and there isn't that much highway in the east coast megopolis. I would like to have had them more clearly describe the driving cycle that the high mileage vehicle had be driven.
Out here in the Michigan flat lands where lots of people drive an hour plus for a morning commute on a limited access highway, Prius are having both battery and engine trouble. All the hybrids are...
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] RV Batteries and Boondocking [message #174575 is a reply to message #174524] |
Mon, 25 June 2012 18:13 |
rallymaster
Messages: 662
Registered: February 2004
Location: North Plains, ORYGUN
Karma: -4
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Senior Member |
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Lithium batteries in laptops don't take kindly to being on charge all the
time. Lotsa folks use them like desktops most of the time, and just
leave them plugged in when they aren't being used.
I've been told by various "experts" to use it on battery, charge it up,
un-plug it use it on battery, charge it up.
Other "experts" say use it on battery when you're away from home. When
you're near an outlet, plug it in and use it, when you're through, unplug
it.
Still don't know what is the best way to do it for max battery life. I
do know that "keep it plugged in all the time" isn't the way to go.
BTDT, didn't last long.
RonC
On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 17:07:53 -0500 "Kris S. Seago"
<eljefeweizen@gmail.com> writes:
> Prius owner here. The traction battery in the Prius is a nickel metal
> hydride (NiMH) battery warranted for 8 years or 100,000 miles.
>
> From a Wikipedia article on the Prius:
>
> "As the Prius reached ten years of being available in the U.S.
> market, in February 2011 Consumer Reports decided to look at the
> lifetime of the Prius battery and the cost to replace it. The
> magazine tested a 2002 Toyota Prius with over 200,000 miles on it,
> and compared the results to the nearly identical 2001 Prius with
> 2,000 miles tested by Consumer Reports 10 years before. The
> comparison showed little difference in performance when tested for
> fuel economy and acceleration. Overall fuel economy of the 2001
> model was 40.6 miles per US gallon (5.79 L/100 km; 48.8 mpg-imp)
> while the 2002 Prius with high mileage delivered 40.4 miles per US
> gallon (5.82 L/100 km; 48.5 mpg-imp). The magazine concluded that
> the effectiveness of the battery has not degraded over the long
> run.[99]"
>
> On Jun 25, 2012, at 11:56 AM, John Heslinga wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Peter:
> >
> > I had 150 laptop computers that I looked after in a high school
> situation. After 2 years I needed 100 battery packs. All lithium
> ion. After the third I needed 25 more. I've found the same with a
> few tools I have. Being that some have Lithium ion batteries, This
> has always made me wonder about the hybrid vehicles out there, and
> resulted in my zero interest in purchasing one.
> >
> > I usually have lead acid batteries last 5 to 7 years or more.
> >
> > (just my observations and experience)
> > --
> > John and Cathie Heslinga
> > 1974 Canyonlands 260
> > TC4W "Too Cool For Words"
> > Retirement Projects Galore
> > Edmonton, Alberta
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
Ron & Linda Clark
1978 Eleganza II
North Plains, ORYGUN
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North Plains, ORYGUN
78 Eleganza II
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| Re: [GMCnet] RV Batteries and Boondocking [message #174578 is a reply to message #174575] |
Mon, 25 June 2012 18:48 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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Two comments. The Prius battery is never charged over 70% and never discharged below 40%. That how they get such goo life out of them.
The Li battery used in my laptop is taken off charge when it reaches 100 % and is left off charge until it reaches 95%. The computer shuts off at 10%. The computer handles all of this automatically.
I have computer batteries around here well over 7 years old. I have one laptop that is never shut off. It monitors APRS and forwards the position packets to the Internet. That laptop has to be around 10 years old and the batteries still hold up during power failures. I have not cycled them in a two years to see what their capacity is.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] RV Batteries and Boondocking [message #174609 is a reply to message #174568] |
Tue, 26 June 2012 08:00 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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A professor friend at MS State and her guy had one of the originals, and added a secopnd this last Fall. One of her jobs is instructing county ciommissions and staff on the use of the (to them) new computerized mapping and photo system MS has instituted, she runs all over the state in the Prius (They both teach geography). 55K miles absolutely no problems whatsoever so far... except when I drove the thing the display was very distracting. She says you get uised to it quiickly. I'll note, they have excellent rapport with the dealer, and the car goes in religiously for its scheduled maintenance. I suspect the new one will also.
--johnny
'76 23' transmode norris (8-10 MPG except once)
'76 palm beach (MPG unknown, 8-10 suspected)
From: Matt Colie <matt7323tze@gmail.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Monday, June 25, 2012 6:32 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] RV Batteries and Boondocking
eljefeweizen wrote on Mon, 25 June 2012 18:07
> Prius owner here. The traction battery in the Prius is a nickel metal hydride (NiMH) battery warranted for 8 years or 100,000 miles.
>
> From a Wikipedia article on the Prius:
>
> "As the Prius reached ten years of being available in the U.S. market, in February 2011 Consumer Reports decided to look at the lifetime of the Prius battery and the cost to replace it. The magazine tested a 2002 Toyota Prius with over 200,000 miles on it, and compared the results to the nearly identical 2001 Prius with 2,000 miles tested by Consumer Reports 10 years before. The comparison showed little difference in performance when tested for fuel economy and acceleration. Overall fuel economy of the 2001 model was 40.6 miles per US gallon (5.79 L/100 km; 48.8 mpg-imp) while the 2002 Prius with high mileage delivered 40.4 miles per US gallon (5.82 L/100 km; 48.5 mpg-imp). The magazine concluded that the effectiveness of the battery has not degraded over the long run.[99]"
> > --
> > John and Cathie Heslinga
John,
I saw and read that report in CS as well.
Unfortunately, it occurred to me that CS is (or was) in White Plains, NY. The problem with the Prius is its highway performance and there isn't that much highway in the east coast megopolis. I would like to have had them more clearly describe the driving cycle that the high mileage vehicle had be driven.
Out here in the Michigan flat lands where lots of people drive an hour plus for a morning commute on a limited access highway, Prius are having both battery and engine trouble. All the hybrids are...
Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie
'73 Glacier 23 Chaumière (say show-me-air) Just about as stock as you will find
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] RV batteries and Boondocking [message #174631 is a reply to message #174524] |
Tue, 26 June 2012 12:53 |
rallymaster
Messages: 662
Registered: February 2004
Location: North Plains, ORYGUN
Karma: -4
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Senior Member |
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Ken, I suspect that the various laptop manufacturers have vastly
different charging algorithms, or that leaving them on sucks up enough of
the available juice that it doesn't harm the battery.
We've ruined batteries for IBM Thinkpad T30, T40, T42, Toshiba Tecra M3
and M5, and a couple of others that I don't remember. Common factor is
that they were all left plugged in all the time. Not turned on all the
time, but plugged in, and set to go into hibernation when the lid is
closed.
RonC
Ron & Linda Clark
1978 Eleganza II
North Plains, ORYGUN
Ken said:
Two comments. The Prius battery is never charged over 70% and never
discharged below 40%. That how they get such goo life out of them.
The Li battery used in my laptop is taken off charge when it reaches 100
% and is left off charge until it reaches 95%. The computer shuts off at
10%. The computer handles all of this automatically.
I have computer batteries around here well over 7 years old. I have one
laptop that is never shut off. It monitors APRS and forwards the position
packets to the Internet. That laptop has to be around 10 years old and
the batteries still hold up during power failures. I have not cycled them
in a two years to see what their capacity is.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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Ron & Linda Clark
North Plains, ORYGUN
78 Eleganza II
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| Re: [GMCnet] RV Batteries and Boondocking [message #174654 is a reply to message #174524] |
Tue, 26 June 2012 15:46 |
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mike miller
Messages: 3576
Registered: February 2004
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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| Peter Garry wrote on Mon, 25 June 2012 09:12 |
Hi all,
Has anybody considered lithium ion batteries? From my googles I find the following.
<< snipped >>
The lithium ion batteries have a much longer charge/recharge life and can be charged much quicker. Less batteries, less weight, longer life but double the cost. Worth it?
Comments from the GMCnet would be appreciated.
|
As others have stated the "usage" to get the most out of the batteries is different between the battery types. Also, the charger has to match the batteries. Seems to me that the heavy boon-dockers using solar panels are the ones who would make the most use of the "better" batteries. Does anyone make a solar charge controller for Lithium batteries?
While I do not believe the newer battery technologies have reached the cost/benefit point to make a good house battery, I do not think that time is very far off. Kind of like a useful fully electric car....
Mike Miller -- Hillsboro, OR -- on the Black list
(#2)`78 23' Birchaven Rear Bath -- (#3)`77 23' Birchaven Side Bath
More Sidekicks than GMC's and a late model Malibu called 'Boo'
http://m000035.blogspot.com
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| Re: [GMCnet] RV Batteries and Boondocking [message #174674 is a reply to message #174654] |
Tue, 26 June 2012 18:31 |
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ljdavick
Messages: 3548
Registered: March 2007
Location: Fremont, CA
Karma: -3
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Senior Member |
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Is it time to look for a Prius at the boneyard? The battery monitors / shunts I've seen aren't nearly as fancy as the battery displays on hybrid cars.
Stuff a Prius battery under the bed and you could boondock for a loooooong time! But how long to recharge?
Larry Davick
Fremont, California
The Mystery Machine
'76 (ish) Palm Beach
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Miller" <m000035@gmail.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2012 1:46:26 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] RV Batteries and Boondocking
Peter Garry wrote on Mon, 25 June 2012 09:12
> Hi all,
> Has anybody considered lithium ion batteries? From my googles I find the following.
>
> << snipped >>
>
> The lithium ion batteries have a much longer charge/recharge life and can be charged much quicker. Less batteries, less weight, longer life but double the cost. Worth it?
>
> Comments from the GMCnet would be appreciated.
As others have stated the "usage" to get the most out of the batteries is different between the battery types. Also, the charger has to match the batteries. Seems to me that the heavy boon-dockers using solar panels are the ones who would make the most use of the "better" batteries. Does anyone make a solar charge controller for Lithium batteries?
While I do not believe the newer battery technologies have reached the cost/benefit point to make a good house battery, I do not think that time is very far off. Kind of like a useful fully electric car....
--
Mike Miller -- Hillsboro, OR -- on the Black list
(#1)'73 26' exPainted D. -- (#2)`78 23' Birchaven Rear Bath -- (#3)`77 23' Birchaven Side Bath
http://m000035.blogspot.com
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Larry Davick
A Mystery Machine
1976(ish) Palm Beach
Fremont, Ca
Howell EFI + EBL + Electronic Dizzy
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| Re: [GMCnet] RV Batteries and Boondocking [message #174686 is a reply to message #174667] |
Tue, 26 June 2012 19:43 |
Arthur Mansfield
Messages: 290
Registered: April 2010
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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I am not a BATTERY expert. I use LIPO batteries with RC model airplanes. The issue is fire. If you over charge a LIPO it will over heat and may burn. If damage in a crash it may burn. We have had a fire when a plane crashed. When LIPO's were first used in RC planes there were some house fires when the battery was improperly charged. The newer LIPO battery charges monitor the voltage and and current shits down when charged. Now LIPO can not be run sown to low or they will accept a charge. The LIPO batteries would be fine if never fully charged or excessive discharged. If discharged to rapidly the batteries will get hot and burn.
I use LIPO's but they are too expensive unless you get them from China. I buy all my batteries for RC from China at 1/3 the cost. If I were to use LIPO I would have to find or develop a charger that would monitor the LIPO and to make sure it was never fully charged or discharged or charged to fast. The newer RC Hilo's use some larger and high current draws.
Art & Doris
EL 76
Decatur AL
On Jun 26, 2012, at 6:01 PM, John Gates wrote:
>
>
> To respond to the question of using lithium ion batteries for boondocking, or in RV use in general, AM Solar did some testing. Take it for what it is worth. Didn't find it on their web menu, but can be found at
>
> http://www.amsolar.com/home/amr/smartlist_22/lithium.html
>
> I'm sure the issues they note can be dealt with by some innovative GMCers.
>
> John Gates
> Enumclaw, WA
> A town so far out in the sticks the zip code is
> E-I-E-I-O
>
>
>
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