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| Combiner issues [message #174058] |
Wed, 20 June 2012 12:24  |
Luvn737s
Messages: 1106
Registered: June 2007
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I'm no electrical genius. Now that we've established that, here's my problem.
I installed a Yandina combiner in the electrical compartment. I wanted the power source to be the PD unit which would charge both the house battery (up front) and the genset starting battery (out back). I used an isolator (which checked good) as a mounting point for the wires: PD to the center and each battery on it's own lug. To each battery was a lead from the combiner and the ground was grounded.
Even before I fired it up, it didn't seem to make sense. The combiner will cut in or cut out when it senses a specific voltage. How can it sense anything other than the output voltage from the PD unit? It will never combine as it should.
So how would you place a combiner so that it sensed raw battery voltage as opposed to charging voltage and actually cut in and out properly?
Or, is the wiring correct, but I was dealing with batteries that were close to fully charged?
OR, should I forget the isolator altogether and merely try to hook them up directly with wire nuts?
Randy
1973 26' Painted Desert
Ahwatukee (Phoenix) AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] Combiner issues [message #174061 is a reply to message #174058] |
Wed, 20 June 2012 12:34  |
Ray Erspamer
Messages: 1707
Registered: May 2007
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin
Karma: -3
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Senior Member |
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Happy to see this question as my Yardina combiner doesn't seem to be working
correctly either. I have mine wired exactly like you do, ground and then one
wire to each of the battery posts on the isolator.
Some how it is sensing battery voltage and always combining, which means if one
battery has a drain on it, they all go dead.
Maybe I have mined screwed up too !
Ray
Ray & Lisa
78 Royale "Great Lakes Eagle"
Center Kitchen TZE368V101144
Wauwatosa, Wisconsin 53226
Email: 78GMC-Royale@att.net
414-745-3188
Web Site: http://ray-lisa.page.tl/
________________________________
From: Randy <Acrosport2@hotmail.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Wed, June 20, 2012 12:24:06 PM
Subject: [GMCnet] Combiner issues
I'm no electrical genius. Now that we've established that, here's my problem.
I installed a Yandina combiner in the electrical compartment. I wanted the power
source to be the PD unit which would charge both the house battery (up front)
and the genset starting battery (out back). I used an isolator (which checked
good) as a mounting point for the wires: PD to the center and each battery on
it's own lug. To each battery was a lead from the combiner and the ground was
grounded.
Even before I fired it up, it didn't seem to make sense. The combiner will cut
in or cut out when it senses a specific voltage. How can it sense anything other
than the output voltage from the PD unit? It will never combine as it should.
So how would you place a combiner so that it sensed raw battery voltage as
opposed to charging voltage and actually cut in and out properly?
Or, is the wiring correct, but I was dealing with batteries that were close to
fully charged?
OR, should I forget the isolator altogether and merely try to hook them up
directly with wire nuts?
--
Randy
1973 26' Painted Desert
Ahwatukee (Phoenix) AZ
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Ray Erspamer
78 GMC Royale Center Kitchen
403, 3.70 Final Drive
Holley Sniper Quadrajet EFI System,
Holley Hyperspark Ignition System
414-484-9431
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| Re: Combiner issues [message #174062 is a reply to message #174058] |
Wed, 20 June 2012 12:45 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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| Luvn737s wrote on Wed, 20 June 2012 13:24 |
I'm no electrical genius. Now that we've established that, here's my problem.
I installed a Yandina combiner in the electrical compartment. I wanted the power source to be the PD unit which would charge both the house battery (up front) and the genset starting battery (out back). I used an isolator (which checked good) as a mounting point for the wires: PD to the center and each battery on it's own lug. To each battery was a lead from the combiner and the ground was grounded.
Even before I fired it up, it didn't seem to make sense. The combiner will cut in or cut out when it senses a specific voltage. How can it sense anything other than the output voltage from the PD unit? It will never combine as it should.
So how would you place a combiner so that it sensed raw battery voltage as opposed to charging voltage and actually cut in and out properly?
Or, is the wiring correct, but I was dealing with batteries that were close to fully charged?
OR, should I forget the isolator altogether and merely try to hook them up directly with wire nuts?
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Randy,
At least you acknowledge what you don't know.
A Yandina combiner senses when either lead is above quiescent battery voltage. This is the case when a battery is being charged only.
In your case, all you need is a combiner between the positive terminals of any two batteries to assure that if one battery is being charged, then they both are being charged.
If you put a combiner between the PD output and the APU start battery, then when you are on shore power, the PD would charge the APU start battery. As the PD is also connected to the house bank, when the house bank is charging from any other source (like the main engine alternator) it should also cause the APU battery charge.
Got that ??? (I will be glad to try again if I lost you.)
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] Combiner issues [message #174081 is a reply to message #174061] |
Wed, 20 June 2012 16:17 |
midlf
Messages: 2212
Registered: July 2007
Location: SE Wisc. (Palmyra)
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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| Ray Erspamer wrote on Wed, 20 June 2012 12:34 |
Happy to see this question as my Yardina combiner doesn't seem to be working
correctly either. I have mine wired exactly like you do, ground and then one
wire to each of the battery posts on the isolator.
Some how it is sensing battery voltage and always combining, which means if one
battery has a drain on it, they all go dead.
Maybe I have mined screwed up too !
Ray
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The combiner should always sense battery voltage from each battery. It should not combine unless one battery, or the other, or both, have a voltage that indicates it is being charged. With the engine off and not on shore power or genset running, and after about 5 minutes,check the combiner. It should not be combined. If it still is, turn on your head lights and recheck the combiner. After the headlights have been on for a minute or two it should be uncombined. If it is still combined you have a problem. However it may not be a bad combiner. The green wire, normally unused, must be taped up. It is a remote control wire. If grounded it locks the combiner open, if connected to 12v it locks the combiner closed.
Just remember the combiner has internal delay timers and the battery surface charge can also cause a delay in uncombining.
Steve Southworth
1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
Palmyra WI
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| Re: Combiner issues [message #174088 is a reply to message #174058] |
Wed, 20 June 2012 17:27 |
Luvn737s
Messages: 1106
Registered: June 2007
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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My combiner never combines as it never senses the cut-in voltage, only the PD output voltage. I have the combiner in line with the positive line of each respective battery (the best compromise I can get since I can't really run a separate combiner wire right to the batteries themselves). When nothing is on, I suppose it senses voltage, but as soon as a charge is applied it will cut out.
I would stick with the isolator alone, but I wanted the PD's smart charging capabilities to be applied to each battery. Maybe this is too much of a good thing.
Randy
1973 26' Painted Desert
Ahwatukee (Phoenix) AZ
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| Re: Combiner issues [message #174103 is a reply to message #174058] |
Wed, 20 June 2012 18:30 |
George Beckman
Messages: 1085
Registered: October 2008
Location: Colfax, CA
Karma: 11
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| Luvn737s wrote on Wed, 20 June 2012 10:24 |
I'm no electrical genius. Now that we've established that, here's my problem...
Even before I fired it up, it didn't seem to make sense. The combiner will cut in or cut out when it senses a specific voltage. How can it sense anything other than the output voltage from the PD unit? It will never combine as it should.
So how would you place a combiner so that it sensed raw battery voltage as opposed to charging voltage and actually cut in and out properly?
Or, is the wiring correct, but I was dealing with batteries that were close to fully charged?
OR, should I forget the isolator altogether and merely try to hook them up directly with wire nuts?
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I also am confused. When my coach is sitting, with no power entering the system, my combiner clicks on and off. Nothing is charging, so I can only assume that the "high battery/s" are "charging" the low battery. This is exactly why I put it on. I never want a low battery taking juice from a high battery. If I wanted that, I would just tie them all together and get a jump after dry camping.
'74 Eleganza, SE, Howell + EBL
Best Wishes,
George
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| Re: Combiner issues [message #174112 is a reply to message #174088] |
Wed, 20 June 2012 19:11 |
midlf
Messages: 2212
Registered: July 2007
Location: SE Wisc. (Palmyra)
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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| Luvn737s wrote on Wed, 20 June 2012 17:27 |
My combiner never combines as it never senses the cut-in voltage, only the PD output voltage. I have the combiner in line with the positive line of each respective battery (the best compromise I can get since I can't really run a separate combiner wire right to the batteries themselves). When nothing is on, I suppose it senses voltage, but as soon as a charge is applied it will cut out.
I would stick with the isolator alone, but I wanted the PD's smart charging capabilities to be applied to each battery. Maybe this is too much of a good thing.
|
The way you did it, with the PD connected to the center terminal of an isolator, does not apply the PD smart charge capability to either battery. Move the PD lead from the center terminal to the terminal with the house battery. Then make sure the combiner is connected to each battery terminal. The isolator will now provide no function other than acting as a terminal strip. If you were still using the original buzzbox the isolator might make some sense as it would drop the charging voltage by approximately 1/2 volt which would slow the destruction of the battery by the buzzbox.
Steve Southworth
1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
Palmyra WI
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| Re: Combiner issues [message #174155 is a reply to message #174112] |
Thu, 21 June 2012 00:50 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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| midlf wrote on Wed, 20 June 2012 19:11 |
| Luvn737s wrote on Wed, 20 June 2012 17:27 |
My combiner never combines as it never senses the cut-in voltage, only the PD output voltage. I have the combiner in line with the positive line of each respective battery (the best compromise I can get since I can't really run a separate combiner wire right to the batteries themselves). When nothing is on, I suppose it senses voltage, but as soon as a charge is applied it will cut out.
I would stick with the isolator alone, but I wanted the PD's smart charging capabilities to be applied to each battery. Maybe this is too much of a good thing.
|
The way you did it, with the PD connected to the center terminal of an isolator, does not apply the PD smart charge capability to either battery. Move the PD lead from the center terminal to the terminal with the house battery. Then make sure the combiner is connected to each battery terminal. The isolator will now provide no function other than acting as a terminal strip. If you were still using the original buzzbox the isolator might make some sense as it would drop the charging voltage by approximately 1/2 volt which would slow the destruction of the battery by the buzzbox.
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I have read the start of this thread 4 times now and we are under the same understanding or is misunderstanding as to what is wired up here.
Let me see if I have this correct. You are attempting to charge both the house battery and the generator starting battery from the same source which I assume is the PD unit.
For some reason you have a SECOND (not the OEM one) isolator in this scenario.
IF the above assumptions are correct then let me say that the isolator will not work in your arrangement.
The isolator has a .7 volt drop going through it. Any voltage that you put on the center terminal will come out the top and bottom terminals approximately .7 volts lower than what you put it it. This is not a good situation for charging any battery unless you raise the center terminal .7 volts higher than normal to make up for the internal loss. On the OEM engine driven alternator with an isolator that is exactly what they do. The generator puts out approximately 14.7 volts to make up for the .7 volt loss in the isolator. The PD unit as a charging source will not do this.
Now enter the combiner. The combiner works by combining the two batteries when either battery exceeds about 13.2 or 13.3 volts volts. Because the isolator is dropping the normal 14 volt output of the PD unit to 13.3 volts or so you are on the ragged edge of whether it will combine or not. Also at 13.3 volts it will take many days to fully charge those batteries. The PD unit also has two other operating voltages of 13.8 (or 13.7) and 13.2 volts. With these voltages you still have the .7 drop of the isolator to contend with before the voltage is delivered to the batteries. On those two steps with the .7 isolator loss the combiner will not operate.
The simple solution is to get rid of that isolator. Connect the PD unit to the house battery side and attach the combiner leads direct to the house side and the direct generator battery circuit.
If I am misunderstanding what you have wired up, please correct me and I'll reassess what you have.
Ken B.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] Combiner issues [message #174174 is a reply to message #174112] |
Thu, 21 June 2012 08:00 |
Ray Erspamer
Messages: 1707
Registered: May 2007
Location: Milwaukee Wisconsin
Karma: -3
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Senior Member |
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Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, my impatience shows again, after I throw in my battery
disconnects, the combiner comes on but DOES turn off after awhile.
Ray
Ray & Lisa
78 Royale "Great Lakes Eagle"
Center Kitchen TZE368V101144
Wauwatosa, Wisconsin 53226
Email: 78GMC-Royale@att.net
414-745-3188
Web Site: http://ray-lisa.page.tl/
________________________________
From: Steve Southworth <midlf@centurytel.net>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Wed, June 20, 2012 7:11:14 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Combiner issues
Luvn737s wrote on Wed, 20 June 2012 17:27
> My combiner never combines as it never senses the cut-in voltage, only the PD
>output voltage. I have the combiner in line with the positive line of each
>respective battery (the best compromise I can get since I can't really run a
>separate combiner wire right to the batteries themselves). When nothing is on, I
>suppose it senses voltage, but as soon as a charge is applied it will cut out.
>
> I would stick with the isolator alone, but I wanted the PD's smart charging
>capabilities to be applied to each battery. Maybe this is too much of a good
>thing.
The way you did it, with the PD connected to the center terminal of an isolator,
does not apply the PD smart charge capability to either battery. Move the PD
lead from the center terminal to the terminal with the house battery. Then make
sure the combiner is connected to each battery terminal. The isolator will now
provide no function other than acting as a terminal strip. If you were still
using the original buzzbox the isolator might make some sense as it would drop
the charging voltage by approximately 1/2 volt which would slow the destruction
of the battery by the buzzbox.
--
Steve Southworth
1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
Palmyra WI
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GMCnet mailing list
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Ray Erspamer
78 GMC Royale Center Kitchen
403, 3.70 Final Drive
Holley Sniper Quadrajet EFI System,
Holley Hyperspark Ignition System
414-484-9431
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| Re: Combiner issues [message #174181 is a reply to message #174155] |
Thu, 21 June 2012 08:35 |
Luvn737s
Messages: 1106
Registered: June 2007
Karma: 2
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| Ken Burton wrote on Wed, 20 June 2012 22:50 |
For some reason you have a SECOND (not the OEM one) isolator in this scenario.
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Actually, it was just to have the lugs to attach to and to separate the batteries. One other byproduct of the way I wired it, is that I have no house power without a charging source active. Otherwise, the combiner stays open and doesn't allow house power to go to the fuseblock. Bummer.
I'll go out and try it your way and use nuts and bolts as the lugs to attach the wires together.
Randy
1973 26' Painted Desert
Ahwatukee (Phoenix) AZ
[Updated on: Thu, 21 June 2012 08:36] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Combiner issues [message #174311 is a reply to message #174058] |
Fri, 22 June 2012 13:21 |
Luvn737s
Messages: 1106
Registered: June 2007
Karma: 2
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Success! sort of. Now the output of the PD is hooked to the house battery and combiner and house fuse block and the other lead of the combiner goes to the genset battery. (Thanks Ken!)
House power works when there is no input voltage to combiner. Un-combines when surface voltage bleeds down a little. GOOD.
When genset/shore power input - combiner combines GOOD.
When alternator inputs DC power - combiner combines (there is an isolator up front that links engine battery and house battery) A surprise, but maybe GOOD.
Alternator seems to put out higher output than PD unit, so on the road the alternator will be doing most of the charging through the combiner and isolator even with the genset running. Is this overtaxing the alternator? Would a combiner up front instead of the isolator be a better setup?
Would it withstand the load of a start with the boost switch?
Randy
1973 26' Painted Desert
Ahwatukee (Phoenix) AZ
[Updated on: Fri, 22 June 2012 13:22] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Combiner issues [message #174330 is a reply to message #174311] |
Fri, 22 June 2012 16:49 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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You have everything just fine the way you now have it.
Yes, the alternator should charge both the the house and Onan batteries plus of course the engine battery.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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