Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » From Bad to Worse! - Engine Overheating! Help!
| From Bad to Worse! - Engine Overheating! Help! [message #172806] |
Sun, 10 June 2012 13:45  |
Jon payne
Messages: 495
Registered: May 2008
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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Someone is trying to prevent me from taking the family in the GMC for our trip! As I mentioned earlier I wanted to give the stop leak a try. So after Church I got some Bars "Liquid Aluminum" and poured some in. I could only get 3/4 of one bottle in because the rad was top offed. So I figured I would warm up the engine to get the coolant circulating purging any air out and freeing up some space in the radiator. After about 4 of 5 minutes i went to kick the choke off and noticed the engine temp was at 3/4 mark! Yikes! I shut it down of course and couldn't believe it was over heating. I felt both upper and lower radiator hoses and you could hardly put your hands on them so no doubt it was hot. So I'm think what could possible causing that?
Thermostat is opening because the upper radiator hose is hot from the thermostat to the radiator. I was thinking the radiator has a block in it but yet the lower radiator hose is also very hot however mostly on the upper part of the hose and not where the radiator hose attaches. In fact the cold area starts in line where the radiator shop soldered. The last five or six rows are cold.
Is that area cold because it is at the bottom and has not yet circulated through? Other than the radiator what else should I check to be sure? It does seem obvious the radiator is the culprit but just not sure of the failure mode.
Guys what do you think? I'm desprite. Our vacation in our GMC is fading fast! The idea of taking our minivan is nauseating.
Jon Payne
76 Palm Beach
Westfield,IN
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| Re: From Bad to Worse! - Engine Overheating! Help! [message #172817 is a reply to message #172806] |
Sun, 10 June 2012 14:31  |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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| Jon Payne wrote on Sun, 10 June 2012 14:45 |
Someone is trying to prevent me from taking the family in the GMC for our trip! As I mentioned earlier I wanted to give the stop leak a try. So after Church I got some Bars "Liquid Aluminum" and poured some in. I could only get 3/4 of one bottle in because the rad was top offed. So I figured I would warm up the engine to get the coolant circulating purging any air out and freeing up some space in the radiator. After about 4 of 5 minutes i went to kick the choke off and noticed the engine temp was at 3/4 mark! Yikes! I shut it down of course and couldn't believe it was over heating. I felt both upper and lower radiator hoses and you could hardly put your hands on them so no doubt it was hot. So I'm think what could possible causing that?
Thermostat is opening because the upper radiator hose is hot from the thermostat to the radiator. I was thinking the radiator has a block in it but yet the lower radiator hose is also very hot however mostly on the upper part of the hose and not where the radiator hose attaches. In fact the cold area starts in line where the radiator shop soldered. The last five or six rows are cold.
Is that area cold because it is at the bottom and has not yet circulated through? Other than the radiator what else should I check to be sure? It does seem obvious the radiator is the culprit but just not sure of the failure mode.
Guys what do you think? I'm desprite. Our vacation in our GMC is fading fast! The idea of taking our minivan is nauseating.
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Jon,
It sounds to me like the coolant is not circulating. Even if a t'stat doesn't open, or worse doesn't open enough, the upper hose and the radiator top (or inlet) tank will often get hot.
If I were in your place, I would dump about a gallon of coolant (once it cools off a bit) and get the thermostat out and do the pan-on-stove test. If it doesn't open, just bust the guts off it and put it back in. The thermostat only keeps the engine from running too cold. That doesn't seem to a problem GMCs have in shirt sleeve weather.
If it was the fan clutch not pulling in, the whole radiator would be hot.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: From Bad to Worse! - Engine Overheating! Help! [message #172825 is a reply to message #172806] |
Sun, 10 June 2012 17:28 |
Jon payne
Messages: 495
Registered: May 2008
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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Matt,
I got a new thermostat, tested it in boiling water and it opens 4 times more than the one I removed. Obviously opening 1/8" is not allowing enough coolant to circulate and explains why the upper radiator hose was hot as you mentioned. So I installed the new thermostat, replenished the coolant, added the stop leak and fired her up and watched the temp closely. In about 3 to 4 minutes the temp was passing the halfway mark!! Checked the upper radiator hose and it was cold but the manifold below the thermostat housing and the temp sensor was extremely hot. I think the thermostat I put in just failed!
It's cooling down now, after dinner I pull out the thermostat and check it. If it checks good I will leave the thermostat out and see what happens.
Any other suggestions are most welcome.
DAMN MURPHY!
Jon
Jon Payne
76 Palm Beach
Westfield,IN
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| Re: [GMCnet] From Bad to Worse! - Engine Overheating! Help! [message #172828 is a reply to message #172825] |
Sun, 10 June 2012 18:00 |
Mr ERFisher
Messages: 7117
Registered: August 2005
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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Mondello (bless his heart) would not warranty my new engine if I used a
thermostat, so he put in a 1" restrictor.
He said , more engines ruined by thermostats than any other component!!!!
still there, and the GMC runs at 180 all the time. ( hate to heat the
engine for a heater ;>)
this is about the size of your thermostat, with the guts removed. (as
someone said)
easy to try this. I have 40,000 miles on my engine using only a restrictor
gene
On Sun, Jun 10, 2012 at 3:28 PM, Jon Payne <embrep@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>
> Matt,
>
> I got a new thermostat, tested it in boiling water and it opens 4 times
> more than the one I removed. Obviously opening 1/8" is not allowing enough
> coolant to circulate and explains why the upper radiator hose was hot as
> you mentioned. So I installed the new thermostat, replenished the coolant,
> added the stop leak and fired her up and watched the temp closely. In
> about 3 to 4 minutes the temp was passing the halfway mark!! Checked the
> upper radiator hose and it was cold but the manifold below the thermostat
> housing and the temp sensor was extremely hot. I think the thermostat I
> put in just failed!
>
> It's cooling down now, after dinner I pull out the thermostat and check
> it. If it checks good I will leave the thermostat out and see what happens.
>
> Any other suggestions are most welcome.
>
> DAMN MURPHY!
>
> Jon
> --
> Jon Payne
> 76 Palm Beach
> Westfield,IN
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
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| Re: [GMCnet] From Bad to Worse! - Engine Overheating! Help! [message #172852 is a reply to message #172825] |
Sun, 10 June 2012 20:45 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Jon,
The way your luck seems to be running I'd install the new aluminum radiator.
What shape are your upper and lower hoses?
Suggestion - check the bottom of your upper radiator hose where it goes over
the drivers side fan shroud support. When Ken and I installed the aluminum
radiator in Double Trouble we discovered that the bottom of the upper hose
had been chafing on the driver side shroud support.
We took an old hose, split it and then glued and tie wrapped it around the
upper hose to protect it.
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: Jon Payne
Matt,
I got a new thermostat, tested it in boiling water and it opens 4 times more
than the one I removed. Obviously opening 1/8" is not allowing enough
coolant to circulate and explains why the upper radiator hose was hot as you
mentioned. So I installed the new thermostat, replenished the coolant,
added the stop leak and fired her up and watched the temp closely. In about
3 to 4 minutes the temp was passing the halfway mark!! Checked the upper
radiator hose and it was cold but the manifold below the thermostat housing
and the temp sensor was extremely hot. I think the thermostat I put in just
failed!
It's cooling down now, after dinner I pull out the thermostat and check it.
If it checks good I will leave the thermostat out and see what happens.
Any other suggestions are most welcome.
DAMN MURPHY!
Jon
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] From Bad to Worse! - Engine Overheating! Help! [message #172853 is a reply to message #172828] |
Sun, 10 June 2012 20:48 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Gene,
How long does it take for your engine to get to 180°?
I realize that's affected by the OAT so a SWAG is fine.
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: gene Fisher
Mondello (bless his heart) would not warranty my new engine if I used a
thermostat, so he put in a 1" restrictor.
He said , more engines ruined by thermostats than any other component!!!!
still there, and the GMC runs at 180 all the time. ( hate to heat the
engine for a heater ;>)
this is about the size of your thermostat, with the guts removed. (as
someone said)
easy to try this. I have 40,000 miles on my engine using only a restrictor
gene
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: From Bad to Worse! - Engine Overheating! Help! [message #172856 is a reply to message #172825] |
Sun, 10 June 2012 21:12 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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| Jon Payne wrote on Sun, 10 June 2012 18:28 |
Matt,
I got a new thermostat, tested it in boiling water and it opens 4 times more than the one I removed. Obviously opening 1/8" is not allowing enough coolant to circulate and explains why the upper radiator hose was hot as you mentioned. So I installed the new thermostat, replenished the coolant, added the stop leak and fired her up and watched the temp closely. In about 3 to 4 minutes the temp was passing the halfway mark!! Checked the upper radiator hose and it was cold but the manifold below the thermostat housing and the temp sensor was extremely hot. I think the thermostat I put in just failed!
It's cooling down now, after dinner I pull out the thermostat and check it. If it checks good I will leave the thermostat out and see what happens.
Any other suggestions are most welcome.
DAMN MURPHY!
Jon
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Jon,
It has been a while, but I had a bad T'stat. I got another (I lived in a town then) and since the pot was still hot, I dropped it in......
It didn't open at all.
I took it back and got another.
Same - Same.... I took it back, got the money and went to a different store and bought a different brand.
Care to guess?? Yhup...... Well it opened a little.
Got my money and found a forth try. Score - Finally
Figure the odds.
I'm not sure that this is your case, but it sure does sound like it.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] From Bad to Worse! - Engine Overheating! Help! [message #172871 is a reply to message #172853] |
Sun, 10 June 2012 21:55 |
Mr ERFisher
Messages: 7117
Registered: August 2005
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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To the end of the street
1in restrictor
Gene
FREE WIFI @ Mickey D
On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:48 PM, "Robert Mueller" <robmueller@iinet.net.au> wrote:
> Gene,
>
> How long does it take for your engine to get to 180°?
>
> I realize that's affected by the OAT so a SWAG is fine.
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gene Fisher
>
> Mondello (bless his heart) would not warranty my new engine if I used a
> thermostat, so he put in a 1" restrictor.
>
> He said , more engines ruined by thermostats than any other component!!!!
>
> still there, and the GMC runs at 180 all the time. ( hate to heat the
> engine for a heater ;>)
>
> this is about the size of your thermostat, with the guts removed. (as
> someone said)
> easy to try this. I have 40,000 miles on my engine using only a restrictor
>
> gene
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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| Re: From Bad to Worse! - Engine Overheating! Help! [message #172874 is a reply to message #172806] |
Sun, 10 June 2012 22:12 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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I think you have a clogged radiator but..
Remove the thermostat completely and try again. Mine ran around 150 to 160 with no thermostat installed for about 500 miles. If removing the thermostat got rid of the over heating problem then take the thermostat and put it in a pot of water. Put any other thermostats you have in the same pot. Put a cooking thermometer in the same pot and stick it on the stove. Walmart has cooking thermometers both digital and mercury type for less than $10.00.
At 180 the thermostat should start to open and it should be fully open around 186. On cool down it they should fully close at around 178.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] From Bad to Worse! - Engine Overheating! Help! [message #172882 is a reply to message #172871] |
Sun, 10 June 2012 22:35 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Gene,
Thanks!
Looks like I add something to the TTD list for when I get back!
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: mr.erfisher@gmail.com
To the end of the street
1in restrictor
Gene
On Jun 10, 2012, at 6:48 PM, "Robert Mueller" <robmueller@iinet.net.au>
wrote:
> Gene,
>
> How long does it take for your engine to get to 180°?
>
> I realize that's affected by the OAT so a SWAG is fine.
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
>
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] From Bad to Worse! - Engine Overheating! Help! [message #172902 is a reply to message #172825] |
Mon, 11 June 2012 06:13 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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You boiled it, it worked. Remove and test again. If it works, be sure you didn't have it in upside down. Otherwise, sounds like there's a blockage someplace, or a non-functioning water pump.
--johnny
'76 23' transmode norris
'76 palm beach
From: Jon Payne <embrep@sbcglobal.net>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 6:28 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] From Bad to Worse! - Engine Overheating! Help!
Matt,
I got a new thermostat, tested it in boiling water and it opens 4 times more than the one I removed. Obviously opening 1/8" is not allowing enough coolant to circulate and explains why the upper radiator hose was hot as you mentioned. So I installed the new thermostat, replenished the coolant, added the stop leak and fired her up and watched the temp closely. In about 3 to 4 minutes the temp was passing the halfway mark!! Checked the upper radiator hose and it was cold but the manifold below the thermostat housing and the temp sensor was extremely hot. I think the thermostat I put in just failed!
It's cooling down now, after dinner I pull out the thermostat and check it. If it checks good I will leave the thermostat out and see what happens.
Any other suggestions are most welcome.
DAMN MURPHY!
Jon
--
Jon Payne
76 Palm Beach
Westfield,IN
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Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] From Bad to Worse! - Engine Overheating! Help! [message #172924 is a reply to message #172902] |
Mon, 11 June 2012 10:24 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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I am going to ask this for clarification, not to ridicule anyone, but, did
you have the heater control valve wide open when you filled the radiator?
The GMC motor home is a quirky mistress and when an air bubble is present,
she will not circulate coolant. Overheating very quickly is the usual
result. Humor an old mechanic and check it.
Jim Hupy
Salem, OR
78 GMC Royale 403
On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 4:13 AM, Johnny Bridges <jhbridges@ymail.com> wrote:
> You boiled it, it worked. Remove and test again. If it works, be sure
> you didn't have it in upside down. Otherwise, sounds like there's a
> blockage someplace, or a non-functioning water pump.
>
> --johnny
> '76 23' transmode norris
> '76 palm beach
>
> From: Jon Payne <embrep@sbcglobal.net>
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2012 6:28 PM
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] From Bad to Worse! - Engine Overheating! Help!
>
>
>
> Matt,
>
> I got a new thermostat, tested it in boiling water and it opens 4 times
> more than the one I removed. Obviously opening 1/8" is not allowing enough
> coolant to circulate and explains why the upper radiator hose was hot as
> you mentioned. So I installed the new thermostat, replenished the coolant,
> added the stop leak and fired her up and watched the temp closely. In
> about 3 to 4 minutes the temp was passing the halfway mark!! Checked the
> upper radiator hose and it was cold but the manifold below the thermostat
> housing and the temp sensor was extremely hot. I think the thermostat I
> put in just failed!
>
> It's cooling down now, after dinner I pull out the thermostat and check
> it. If it checks good I will leave the thermostat out and see what happens.
>
> Any other suggestions are most welcome.
>
> DAMN MURPHY!
>
> Jon
> --
> Jon Payne
> 76 Palm Beach
> Westfield,IN
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] From Bad to Worse! - Engine Overheating! Help! [message #172934 is a reply to message #172924] |
Mon, 11 June 2012 11:29 |
Jon payne
Messages: 495
Registered: May 2008
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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Thanks everyone for your input. I think I got it sorted out now. Here is a brief overview of the sequence of events:
- Found Radiator leak last Tuesday night
- Pulled radiator Wednesday evening and took to radiator shop Thursday morning.
- Picked up "repaired" radiator Friday after work and installed.
- Repaired radiator now has two more leaks!
- Put in stop leak, filled radiator, started engine, engine overheated (or so it seems.....)
- Matt Suggested I pull thermostat and check. Did that and found thermostat barely opening, 1/8" or less. Thanks Matt!
- Got new thermostat and tested before I installed. New T-stat opens over 1/4". Good to go.
- Refilled radiator started her up and in about 3 minutes the gauge reads over half way mark....WTH!
- Checked upper radiator hose and was still cold...hmmm...New T-stat not opening??
- Pulled T-stat out and tested again. Still opens. What to do??
- I failed to mention earlier that I installed a new temp sensor from NAPA. Its the one that is recommended on Gene's site.
- Hmmm... could be bad sensor. So I reinstalled the T-stat and the removed NAPA sensor and put back the original.
- what do you know...engine temps normal!!
So, seems at first I had a problem with the first t-stat. When I installed the second one it was working fine but the new temp sensor was not. The new sensor would read 3/4 mark when it was really at the 1/4 mark. I haven't taken it for a test drive yet as it was rather late when I finished up but the to small leaks I did have are now gone. I'm hoping that it will stay that way and can take the family on our 9 day adventure in our wonderful, but sometimes aggravating, GMC!
Thanks again everyone!
Jon
Jon Payne
76 Palm Beach
Westfield,IN
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| Re: [GMCnet] From Bad to Worse! - Engine Overheating! Help! [message #172948 is a reply to message #172934] |
Mon, 11 June 2012 12:03 |
jw mills
Messages: 199
Registered: September 2006
Karma: -30
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Senior Member |
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As I recall the reason for changing to the temperature sender on Gene's
site was to get the readings off the bottom half of the gauge.
With the original sender the halfway mark was "boiled dry" IIRC.
I always verify a temp sender with a mechanical gauge, when I have to
change out one.
--
Jim Mills KD0NPU
Greeley, CO
1973 CanyonLands 260
TZE-063V100731(under renovation)
On Mon, 2012-06-11 at 11:29 -0500, Jon Payne wrote:
>
> Thanks everyone for your input. I think I got it sorted out now. Here is a brief overview of the sequence of events:
>
> - Found Radiator leak last Tuesday night
> - Pulled radiator Wednesday evening and took to radiator shop Thursday morning.
> - Picked up "repaired" radiator Friday after work and installed.
> - Repaired radiator now has two more leaks!
> - Put in stop leak, filled radiator, started engine, engine overheated (or so it seems.....)
> - Matt Suggested I pull thermostat and check. Did that and found thermostat barely opening, 1/8" or less. Thanks Matt!
> - Got new thermostat and tested before I installed. New T-stat opens over 1/4". Good to go.
> - Refilled radiator started her up and in about 3 minutes the gauge reads over half way mark....WTH!
> - Checked upper radiator hose and was still cold...hmmm...New T-stat not opening??
> - Pulled T-stat out and tested again. Still opens. What to do??
> - I failed to mention earlier that I installed a new temp sensor from NAPA. Its the one that is recommended on Gene's site.
> - Hmmm... could be bad sensor. So I reinstalled the T-stat and the removed NAPA sensor and put back the original.
> - what do you know...engine temps normal!!
>
> So, seems at first I had a problem with the first t-stat. When I installed the second one it was working fine but the new temp sensor was not. The new sensor would read 3/4 mark when it was really at the 1/4 mark. I haven't taken it for a test drive yet as it was rather late when I finished up but the to small leaks I did have are now gone. I'm hoping that it will stay that way and can take the family on our 9 day adventure in our wonderful, but sometimes aggravating, GMC!
>
>
> Thanks again everyone!
> Jon
>
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] From Bad to Worse! - Engine Overheating! Help! [message #172997 is a reply to message #172934] |
Mon, 11 June 2012 18:24 |
armandminnie
Messages: 864
Registered: May 2009
Location: Marana, AZ
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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Jon, I started a trip by installing a NAPA sender a couple of years ago. After installing it I drove the coach about a mile and found the temp gauge almost pegged at the hot mark. I ended up putting a calibrated mechanical gauge in and found that it actually was hot (as high as 240 degrees) and the OEM sender and gauge were just showing normal. Since nothing else had changed I figured that this was nothing new so I continued on my trip with no problems. When I got back I installed an aluminum radiator and, eventually, air deflectors to settle the fan clutch down. I would bet that your coach is running and you just can't tell. You can read about my adventures at http://minniebiz.com/gmcmotorhome/?p=744
Armand Minnie
Marana, AZ
'76 Eleganza II TZE166V103202
visit my gmc blog
click here to visit gmcws.org
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| Re: [GMCnet] From Bad to Worse! - Engine Overheating! Help! [message #173014 is a reply to message #172934] |
Mon, 11 June 2012 20:46 |
Gary Mau
Messages: 152
Registered: February 2004
Location: Davenport, Iowa
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Jon,
I went through the exact same process a few years ago when I tried to go the NAPA temp sender. Read 3/4. Tested T-stat in boiling pan of water, checked okay, even changed to another T-stat, everything looked okay. Bought an external temp gauge and it read right on 195. I ended up going back to the original sender and am happy with the 1/4 gauge reading for normal. Makes you wonder about those NAPA senders.
Gary Mau
Former 76 Royale owner
Davenport, IA
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| Re: From Bad to Worse! - Engine Overheating! Help! [message #173290 is a reply to message #172806] |
Thu, 14 June 2012 09:52 |
Luvn737s
Messages: 1106
Registered: June 2007
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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Should rad cap/thermostat/belts/hoses and waterpumps be "life limited" items, say replace every 5 years or 25,000 miles regardless of condition if you want to eliminate a source of unreliability? We don't wait for the oil to lose it's lubricating qualities and let the engine sieze before changing it. Why wait for items that could do real harm break before they are replaced?
Randy
1973 26' Painted Desert
Ahwatukee (Phoenix) AZ
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