Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » effect of ethanol on fuel line :- DISCUSSION
| effect of ethanol on fuel line :- DISCUSSION [message #171592] |
Thu, 31 May 2012 23:43  |
glacierfl
Messages: 444
Registered: June 2011
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Hello,
I have been doing some research on the effect of ethanol on fuel lines and fuel tanks. I know many people are looking for the very best, in order to try and prevent problems. Can we talk about this and try and establish the best way forward for us. I have discovered that ethanol can effect copper, alum and others. It seems that some types of stainless steel are the best regarding the metals. With 20% ethanol coming on board in the not so far future, this issue is only going to get worse..... I am personally infuriated at the way this stuff is added to fuel, and we have to foot the bills for problems associated with it. so what do you think??
What is the best way forward on these issues......
cheers and beers
Steve & Debbie
Monticello, FL
77 Palm Beach :- Aurora
EX G4WDT
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] effect of ethanol on fuel line :- DISCUSSION [message #171594 is a reply to message #171592] |
Fri, 01 June 2012 00:10  |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
|
Senior Member |
|
|
About 3-4 years ago the fuel hose industry finally figured out a way
to stop the ethanol from permeating through the fuel hose.
They developed a thin material which act as a barrier.
They also import one from Europe that can be kept inside the tank.
We can only purchase that in one feet quantity as it is very expensive.
This hose is used on our submerged fuel pump kit only.
On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 9:43 PM, steve & debbie <zzdebz@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> Hello,
> I have been doing some research on the effect of ethanol on fuel lines and fuel tanks. I know many people are looking for the very best, in order to try and prevent problems. Can we talk about this and try and establish the best way forward for us. I have discovered that ethanol can effect copper, alum and others. It seems that some types of stainless steel are the best regarding the metals. With 20% ethanol coming on board in the not so far future, this issue is only going to get worse..... I am personally infuriated at the way this stuff is added to fuel, and we have to foot the bills for problems associated with it. so what do you think??
> What is the best way forward on these issues......
>
> cheers and beers
>
> --
> Steve & Debbie
> Monticello, FL
> 77 Palm Beach :- Aurora
> EX G4WDT
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] effect of ethanol on fuel line :- DISCUSSION [message #171600 is a reply to message #171592] |
Fri, 01 June 2012 01:43 |
 |
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Steve,
The VERY BEST way forward is to build your fuel deliver system out of 3/8"
stainless steel lines using stainless steel fittings wherever possible.
The very best fittings are AN 37° flare fittings machined to accept a Teflon
seals in the flared face. I used them to build ground support equipment at
the Johnson Space Center back in my Apollo days.
Here's a link:
http://ssp-industrial.com/Products/Tube-Fittings/Flared-Fittings/UltraFlare.
aspx
These types of fittings would be used where you would want to disassemble
the tubing.
In areas where you just wanted to join two lengths of tubing together you
could use Ferulok flareless fittings made by Parker Hannifin:
http://tinyurl.com/c3oer6x
Swag Lok also make high quality flareless fittings:
http://www.swagelok.com/products/fittings/tube-fittings-tube-adapters.aspx
Since you will be flaring Stainless Steel you will need a good quality flare
tool, I gar-ron-tee you'll have problems with kits from Harbor Freight,
Sears, Home Depot, etc.
You'll need one like this from Eastwood:
http://www.eastwood.com/professional-brake-tubing-flaring-tool.html
In places were flexibility is required I would suggest Teflon lined braided
stainless steel lines with female 37° flared ends.
The reason I used the term "wherever possible" in the first sentence is
because there are some connections that will require rubber hoses such as
the connection to the Main / Aux selector valve.
For those connections I would suggest:
Gates Barricade Fuel Hose:
http://www.gates.com/brochure.cfm?brochure=12468&location_id=5348
Submersible Fuel Hose:
http://www.gates.com/brochure.cfm?brochure=5091&location_id=541
On a final note, I'll leave it to you to do the legwork to find out what it
will cost to build a fuel system as I've noted above. I think you'll be gob
smacked when you see how much it will cost.
When I get around to re-doing the fuel delivery system on Double Trouble I'm
going to use Poly Armour with brass fittings and Barricade hose.
Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion-The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion-Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: steve & debbie
Hello,
I have been doing some research on the effect of ethanol on fuel lines and
fuel tanks. I know many people are looking for the very best, in order to
try and prevent problems. Can we talk about this and try and establish the
best way forward for us. I have discovered that ethanol can effect copper,
alum and others. It seems that some types of stainless steel are the best
regarding the metals. With 20% ethanol coming on board in the not so far
future, this issue is only going to get worse..... I am personally
infuriated at the way this stuff is added to fuel, and we have to foot the
bills for problems associated with it. so what do you think??
What is the best way forward on these issues......
cheers and beers
Steve & Debbie
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] effect of ethanol on fuel line :- DISCUSSION [message #171601 is a reply to message #171594] |
Fri, 01 June 2012 01:45 |
glacierfl
Messages: 444
Registered: June 2011
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Hello Jim,
That sounds interesting. What kind of price is that stuff?. I guess the fuel line needed to refit the whole gas system would be astronomical. It seems also that a long term way to go could also be SS fuel tanks. Certain types of SS are not adversely affected by ethanol. SS lines from the fuel pump to carb, also would seem a good future upgrade. I guess in time these kinds of things will get incorporated and perhaps become more common place.
cheers and beers
Steve & Debbie
Monticello, FL
77 Palm Beach :- Aurora
EX G4WDT
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] effect of ethanol on fuel line :- DISCUSSION [message #171603 is a reply to message #171600] |
Fri, 01 June 2012 01:58 |
glacierfl
Messages: 444
Registered: June 2011
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Hello Rob,
I was looking into teflon braided SS line, earlier on. It's not that expensive. I was wondering if that type of line to replace all the current line, would have any inherent problems?? I guess it would need special fittings. I wonder why you are going for polyarmour. What do you see as its special qualities as opposed to teflon braided mentioned previously. I just want to understand
why so many people want to use this, when the copper coating would be affected by ethanol ??
cheers and beers
Steve & Debbie
Monticello, FL
77 Palm Beach :- Aurora
EX G4WDT
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] effect of ethanol on fuel line :- DISCUSSION [message #171605 is a reply to message #171592] |
Fri, 01 June 2012 02:45 |
mickeysss
Messages: 1476
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
convert to natural gas, with tanks from wrecked cars. It is not as crazy as one may think, i have three cng vans and they are $2:14 a gallon, they
get better milage than gas, a mile or so per gallon better. The power is not bad, this is off thread a little but interesting at least. sorry for that.
They are used with fuel injection, but i have seen articles that they do not need a fuel pump and they work good with carbs, - If i have a chance
i think i may try it some day. Propane is good as well. Excuse me for going off thread. regards. m, I have seen wrecked cng vans go for $1000
with good tanks that would take you 200 miles on a tank full. all the valves and triggers to make it work on them. This is less than most
designs for fuel tanks. CNG is going to grow big time, it already is here in L.A. areas. off topic sorry again. I would like to know the best
gas lines as well. But big gas is in the hands of thieves. CNG is just starting up and so is propane - big down under as well.
I agree what is the best way forward with gas lines? i am all ears.
On May 31, 2012, at 9:43 PM, steve & debbie wrote:
>
>
> Hello,
> I have been doing some research on the effect of ethanol on fuel lines and fuel tanks. I know many people are looking for the very best, in order to try and prevent problems. Can we talk about this and try and establish the best way forward for us. I have discovered that ethanol can effect copper, alum and others. It seems that some types of stainless steel are the best regarding the metals. With 20% ethanol coming on board in the not so far future, this issue is only going to get worse..... I am personally infuriated at the way this stuff is added to fuel, and we have to foot the bills for problems associated with it. so what do you think??
> What is the best way forward on these issues......
>
> cheers and beers
>
> --
> Steve & Debbie
> Monticello, FL
> 77 Palm Beach :- Aurora
> EX G4WDT
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] effect of ethanol on fuel line :- DISCUSSION [message #171606 is a reply to message #171603] |
Fri, 01 June 2012 02:45 |
|
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Steve,
Please send me a link to the Teflon lined braided stainless steel lines you
looked into.
I will use Poly Armour because the manufacturer notes that it is acceptable
to use for:
1) brake lines
2) fuel lines
3) transmission fluid lines
www.agscompany.com/automotive/brake-fuel-transmission-lines/poly-armour/352
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: steve & debbie
Hello Rob,
I was looking into teflon braided SS line, earlier on. It's not that
expensive. I was wondering if that type of line to replace all the current
line, would have any inherent problems?? I guess it would need special
fittings. I wonder why you are going for polyarmour. What do you see as its
special qualities as opposed to teflon braided mentioned previously. I just
want to understand why so many people want to use this, when the copper
coating would be affected by ethanol ??
--
Steve & Debbie
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] effect of ethanol on fuel line :- DISCUSSION [message #171646 is a reply to message #171605] |
Fri, 01 June 2012 11:19 |
 |
mike miller
Messages: 3576
Registered: February 2004
Location: Hillsboro, Oregon
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
| mickeysss wrote on Fri, 01 June 2012 00:45 |
convert to natural gas, ...
... with good tanks that would take you 200 miles on a tank full. ...
|
While I agree that CNG (Compressed Natural Gas) makes a lot of sense for some uses. Finding the parts are NOT that hard to find. CoPart had a bunch of CMG powered Hondas being sold... cheap.
The problem is you need to be able to refuel. The closest place (to me) that I could find is 200 miles away! Sure I could get a home compressor. BUT those units cost several thousand each and I hear they do not last long between rebuilds. (Read as: More $$$ than the conversion of the rig... plus you have to pay for the Natural Gas to compress!) It would be much cheaper if you can use a commercial filling station(s) close to you.
Plus being "tethered" to you home refilling station would make the rig a "local area only" vehicle. With a max range of 100 miles (One way because you have to make it back "home" to refill.) It is great for deliveries and stuff, but not so great for long haul over the road use.... like the way I normally use a motorhome.
So... if you only plan on going ONLY where you can find CNG, and you are going to do a bit of driving ONLY in those areas with CNG, Go for it! You'll save a "boatload."
I suspect when (if?) the infrastructure is in place to make CNG a good option for the rest of us, the costs will be higher... wiping out most of the saving from the switch.
Mike Miller -- Hillsboro, OR -- on the Black list
(#2)`78 23' Birchaven Rear Bath -- (#3)`77 23' Birchaven Side Bath
More Sidekicks than GMC's and a late model Malibu called 'Boo'
http://m000035.blogspot.com
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] effect of ethanol on fuel line :- DISCUSSION [message #171656 is a reply to message #171646] |
Fri, 01 June 2012 15:35 |
mickeysss
Messages: 1476
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
I agree whole heartedly if it is not around go to propane maybe, CNG is abundant here in so. ca. area, but i looked at going to casa, for ice cream and
between l.a. county and the casa place there was only one station that on the net people stated it does not always take your card or is not always open.
then you need aaa card for 100 mile flat bed.
So it is a voyage so to speak and very exciting some times even here in metro mania areas. For local it is better for electric home charging, for semi local
but available cng,
Propane is a good idea as well and is every where. CNG allows for going on the hov lane in the l.a. area which makes you feel like you are driving
a police car and can go around everyone with just one person. I as well will just put in the best gas lines, pay out the nose and plan on doing
a fog gun shower and solar - wind and sun heated water. These are my dream schemes for shade tree and ice tea. Right now i am lucky to see
the thing once a week. I only dream of laying under it looking up through the spark plug wires.
regards m.
On Jun 1, 2012, at 9:19 AM, Mike Miller wrote:
>
>
> mickeysss wrote on Fri, 01 June 2012 00:45
>> convert to natural gas, ...
>>
>> ... with good tanks that would take you 200 miles on a tank full. ...
>
>
> While I agree that CNG (Compressed Natural Gas) makes a lot of sense for some uses. Finding the parts are NOT that hard to find. CoPart had a bunch of CMG powered Hondas being sold... cheap.
>
> The problem is you need to be able to refuel. The closest place (to me) that I could find is 200 miles away! Sure I could get a home compressor. BUT those units cost several thousand each and I hear they do not last long between rebuilds. (Read as: More $$$ than the conversion of the rig... plus you have to pay for the Natural Gas to compress!) It would be much cheaper if you can use a commercial filling station(s) close to you.
>
> Plus being "tethered" to you home refilling station would make the rig a "local area only" vehicle. With a max range of 100 miles (One way because you have to make it back "home" to refill.) It is great for deliveries and stuff, but not so great for long haul over the road use.... like the way I normally use a motorhome.
>
> So... if you only plan on going ONLY where you can find CNG, and you are going to do a bit of driving ONLY in those areas with CNG, Go for it! You'll save a "boatload."
>
> I suspect when (if?) the infrastructure is in place to make CNG a good option for the rest of us, the costs will be higher... wiping out most of the saving from the switch.
>
> --
> Mike Miller -- Hillsboro, OR -- on the Black list
> (#1)'73 26' exPainted D. -- (#2)`78 23' Birchaven Rear Bath -- (#3)`77 23' Birchaven Side Bath
> http://m000035.blogspot.com
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
|
|
|
|
| Re: effect of ethanol on fuel line :- DISCUSSION [message #171683 is a reply to message #171592] |
Fri, 01 June 2012 21:44 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
|
Senior Member |
|
|
""With 20% ethanol coming on board in the not so far future, this issue is only going to get worse..... ""
It's becoming available with separate pumps so I wouldn't panic too quickly since most stations won't supply it and it's not mandatory. I know I know I know all of the end of the earth doomsday predictors will spell the end of the earth over this but most of us don't need to worry about it. Frankly, 15% isn't all that bad for those of us who have maintained our fuel systems. It will keep it clean for a long time to come. Getting with the program isn't all that bad--unless you have already neglected your coach for years!
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
|
|
|
|
| Re: effect of ethanol on fuel line :- DISCUSSION [message #171703 is a reply to message #171683] |
Fri, 01 June 2012 23:20 |
glacierfl
Messages: 444
Registered: June 2011
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Hello Bob,
Well the stuff i have read says increases above 10% Ethanol have more of an effect on tappits/heads etc than 10% does. So it is very relavant at least to know the potential problems. Any part subject to the gas can and will develop problems. The more Ethanol you mix in the worse the problems will get. All this is available to read, if you hunt around... I am just trying to think about possible solutions to the problems we can encounter.
How long before the 15% pumps become the norm, and then ya have a %20 pump.... They do not care, most folks driving around in older vehicles have no idea what going on in their tanks/lines/carbs/seals/fuel pumps etc etc... I bet even flex fuel vehicles will develop problems.Adding Ethanol to gas makes it conductive... Another set of probs right there....
Anyhow i shall refrain on this issue.
cheers and beers
Steve & Debbie
Monticello, FL
77 Palm Beach :- Aurora
EX G4WDT
[Updated on: Fri, 01 June 2012 23:24] Report message to a moderator |
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] effect of ethanol on fuel line :- DISCUSSION [message #171705 is a reply to message #171703] |
Fri, 01 June 2012 23:37 |
|
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Steve,
I really would like to know how increases in ethanol will effect the tappets
and heads, could you please provide a link to the articles that discussed
that.
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: steve & debbie
Hello Bob,
Well the stuff i have read says increases above 10% Ethanol have more of an
effect on tappits/heads etc than 10% does. So it is very relavant at least
to know the potential problems. Any part subject to the gas can and will
develop problems. The more Ethanol you mix in the worse the problems will
get. All this is available to read, if you hunt around... I am just trying
to think about possible solutions to the problems we can encounter.
How long before the 15% pumps become the norm, and then ya have a %20
pump.... They do not care, most folks driving around in older vehicles have
no idea what going on in their tanks/lines/carbs/seals/fuel pumps etc etc...
I bet even flex fuel vehicles will develop problems.
cheers and beers
--
Steve & Debbie
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] effect of ethanol on fuel line :- DISCUSSION [message #171763 is a reply to message #171706] |
Sat, 02 June 2012 11:27 |
glacierfl
Messages: 444
Registered: June 2011
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Hello,
I cannot find the specific details of tappit/head damage ODD.
But this may give a clue to what heppens.
Dry corrosion (corrosion with no water present) of metal in ethanol is proposed to occur naturally in the presence of oxygen and generates water as a by-product; thus dry corrosion and the eventual presence of water may be unavoidable in ethanol environments.
cheers and beers
Steve & Debbie
Monticello, FL
77 Palm Beach :- Aurora
EX G4WDT
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] effect of ethanol on fuel line :- DISCUSSION [message #171864 is a reply to message #171821] |
Sun, 03 June 2012 10:14 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
|
Senior Member |
|
|
At some point we need to realize that ethanol laced gasoline is here to stay--hopefully at a 15% level for a while. As we routinely replace and update components such as fuel lines, pumps, switching valves, ethanol resistant materials are readily available. After that, I don't see ethanol being that much of an issue and in fact it will help keep the system clean.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] effect of ethanol on fuel line :- DISCUSSION [message #171868 is a reply to message #171864] |
Sun, 03 June 2012 10:28 |
petemosss
Messages: 221
Registered: August 2008
Location: Jacksonville, Florida
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Rob,
Polyarmor also won't rust. I have $50 of hyd. steel tube that rusted inside and out days after leaving the hydraulic distributor. I picked up a 25' roll of Polyarmor for $29. at O'Reilly. Looks easy to bend and has to be easier to flare than steel or s.s. Can I use all my 37 deg steel fittings with it?
Pete
74 Canyon Lands 26' "Emery"
|
|
|
|
|
|
Goto Forum:
Current Time: Sun Sep 29 00:26:37 CDT 2024
Total time taken to generate the page: 0.01818 seconds
|
GMCforum
Search
Help
Register
Login
Home
