Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] Wheel Spacers
| [GMCnet] Wheel Spacers [message #170726] |
Thu, 24 May 2012 10:51  |
glwgmc
Messages: 1014
Registered: June 2004
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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Good info, Adrien. It is important to note that all things pertaining to steering geometry on our GMCs start with proper ride height. If a coach is not at the correct factory ride height front and rear, you cannot achieve proper alignment. Things like the anti-dive geometry and proper drive shaft angle to name just two are baked into the ride height and cannot be altered. Caster, camber, toe and frame parallelism can be adjusted even if the ride height is off but your coach still will not drive correctly and might wander with or without things like spacers and aftermarket sway bars. The other critical factor is that the GMC was designed for bias ply tires and the design was not changed (as far as I can tell) when they switched to radial ply tires in 76. Bias ply tires and radial ply tires exhibit very different rolling characteristics. At speed a bias ply tire will go egg shaped and the contact patch area will shift rearward which effectively increases the caster angle
. Radial ply tires do not so additional caster must be dialed in at rest to compensate. Too much caster, however, will cause excessive steering effort and may overload the steering gear. You can read all about this in the slides from the presentation I gave at GMCWS Casa de Fruita rally last month. The presentation slides in .pdf format are available for free download on the GMCWS web site or my web site (http://jerrywork.com).
Jerry
Jerry Work
Fine furniture designed and hand crafted in the 1907 former Masonic Temple building in historic Kerby, OR
glwork@mac.com
http://jerrywork.com
541-592-5360
-------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Wed, 23 May 2012 19:21:14 -0500
From: Adrien Genesoto <fixman54@syix.com>
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Wheel Spacers
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Message-ID: <29ab1.4fbd7ef9@gmc.mybirdfeeder.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-15"
Mac,
I know about the tracking differences that is built in to our coaches (LOOKS, and rut tracking), but I Keep thinking about what spacers do to the designed 'front end geometry'.
Not to mention the difference in load forces imposed on the hub bearings. I'm surprised that they're lasting like they do.
Here are some site about FEG also none as Steering Geometry.
> http://www.scribd.com/doc/15355738/Steering-Geometry-Angles <
> http://www.motor.org.uk/documentlibrary/Sep%2009/TT%20_%20Sept%2009.pdf <
> http://www.google.com/search?q=steering+geometry&hl=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=NXa9T5LtDsqliQKorZi5D w&sqi=2&ved=0CGoQsAQ&biw=1600&bih=688 <
Just for information.
--
”When we avoid the mistakes we might have made, we sometimes make the mistakes that we might have avoided.”
Adrien & Jenny
75 Glenbrook
Yuba City,Ca.
-------------------------------------
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Jerry & Sharon Work
78 Royale
Kerby, OR
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| Re: [GMCnet] Wheel Spacers [message #170758 is a reply to message #170726] |
Thu, 24 May 2012 18:40  |
 |
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Jerry,
Interesting observations re the steering geometry, what do you think about the information Bill Wevers put together?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Re: GMCMI Tech Session? [message #170050 is a reply to message #169677 ] Thu, 17 May 2012 21:09
This discussion got me wondering how the One Ton Mod affects the front suspension geometry. So I spent the last few days working on
an excel spreadsheet entering in the stock suspension numbers.
And then I plotted the Camber Change, Toe in change and front track change. The results can be seen here:
http://onetonsuspensionmods.shutterfly.com/pictures/9#11
I measured with a tape measure and got these numbers:
Lower Control Arm length = 14.75"
Upper " " = 9.75"
Stock spindle height = 9"
One Ton spindle height = 11" and various other dimensions.
See the images for the numbers I used.
What is interesting is how little toe change and track change there is with the stock suspension designed 50 years ago.
The one ton suspension seems to have a lot of camber and front track change.
I can send you the excel spreadsheet if you are interested.
Regards,
Bill
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: Work Jerry
Good info, Adrien. It is important to note that all things pertaining to steering geometry on our GMCs start with proper ride
height. If a coach is not at the correct factory ride height front and rear, you cannot achieve proper alignment. Things like the
anti-dive geometry and proper drive shaft angle to name just two are baked into the ride height and cannot be altered. Caster,
camber, toe and frame parallelism can be adjusted even if the ride height is off but your coach still will not drive correctly and
might wander with or without things like spacers and aftermarket sway bars. The other critical factor is that the GMC was designed
for bias ply tires and the design was not changed (as far as I can tell) when they switched to radial ply tires in 76. Bias ply
tires and radial ply tires exhibit very different rolling characteristics. At speed a bias ply tire will go egg shaped and the
contact patch area will shift rearward which effectively increases the caster angle
. Radial ply tires do not so additional caster must be dialed in at rest to compensate. Too much caster, however, will cause
excessive steering effort and may overload the steering gear. You can read all about this in the slides from the presentation I
gave at GMCWS Casa de Fruita rally last month. The presentation slides in .pdf format are available for free download on the GMCWS
web site or my web site (http://jerrywork.com).
Jerry
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Wheel Spacers [message #191681 is a reply to message #170726] |
Thu, 29 November 2012 21:40 |
mickeysss
Messages: 1476
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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If anyone needs a bearing puller set i just bought one, and if anyone in the anaheim area needs to use it let me know.
If anyone wants to do mine with it and knows how, i will pay you as well.
mickey
77 plam beach
anaheim ca.
On May 24, 2012, at 8:51 AM, Work Jerry wrote:
> Good info, Adrien. It is important to note that all things pertaining to steering geometry on our GMCs start with proper ride height. If a coach is not at the correct factory ride height front and rear, you cannot achieve proper alignment. Things like the anti-dive geometry and proper drive shaft angle to name just two are baked into the ride height and cannot be altered. Caster, camber, toe and frame parallelism can be adjusted even if the ride height is off but your coach still will not drive correctly and might wander with or without things like spacers and aftermarket sway bars. The other critical factor is that the GMC was designed for bias ply tires and the design was not changed (as far as I can tell) when they switched to radial ply tires in 76. Bias ply tires and radial ply tires exhibit very different rolling characteristics. At speed a bias ply tire will go egg shaped and the contact patch area will shift rearward which effectively increases the caster ang
le
> . Radial ply tires do not so additional caster must be dialed in at rest to compensate. Too much caster, however, will cause excessive steering effort and may overload the steering gear. You can read all about this in the slides from the presentation I gave at GMCWS Casa de Fruita rally last month. The presentation slides in .pdf format are available for free download on the GMCWS web site or my web site (http://jerrywork.com).
>
> Jerry
> Jerry Work
> Fine furniture designed and hand crafted in the 1907 former Masonic Temple building in historic Kerby, OR
> glwork@mac.com
> http://jerrywork.com
> 541-592-5360
>
> -------------------------
> Message: 7
> Date: Wed, 23 May 2012 19:21:14 -0500
> From: Adrien Genesoto <fixman54@syix.com>
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Wheel Spacers
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Message-ID: <29ab1.4fbd7ef9@gmc.mybirdfeeder.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-15"
>
>
>
> Mac,
>
> I know about the tracking differences that is built in to our coaches (LOOKS, and rut tracking), but I Keep thinking about what spacers do to the designed 'front end geometry'.
>
> Not to mention the difference in load forces imposed on the hub bearings. I'm surprised that they're lasting like they do.
>
> Here are some site about FEG also none as Steering Geometry.
>
>> http://www.scribd.com/doc/15355738/Steering-Geometry-Angles <
>
>> http://www.motor.org.uk/documentlibrary/Sep%2009/TT%20_%20Sept%2009.pdf <
>
>> http://www.google.com/search?q=steering+geometry&hl=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=NXa9T5LtDsqliQKorZi5D w&sqi=2&ved=0CGoQsAQ&biw=1600&bih=688 <
>
>
> Just for information.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> ”When we avoid the mistakes we might have made, we sometimes make the mistakes that we might have avoided.”
>
>
>
> Adrien & Jenny
> 75 Glenbrook
> Yuba City,Ca.
> -------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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| Re: [GMCnet] Wheel Spacers [message #191820 is a reply to message #191681] |
Fri, 30 November 2012 22:42 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Mac,
There are several people that have traveled over100,000 miles with the 2"
wheel spacers with great success
The late Bobby Moore had over 120,000 miles on them and was a firm believer
that if the knuckle and bearing clearances are set properly, you'll not
have problems. Unfortunately most do not know how to check them out and
think they did it correctly.
Bill's data confirms my thought that the 1 ton design has it's draw backs,
and we have not been promoting it.
Like Dave Lenzi, I feel that the stock front unit when set properly
following Jerry's instruction is a safer approach.
On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 7:41 PM, Mickey Space Ship Shuttle <mickeysss@me.com
> wrote:
>
>
> If anyone needs a bearing puller set i just bought one, and if anyone in
> the anaheim area needs to use it let me know.
>
> If anyone wants to do mine with it and knows how, i will pay you as well.
>
> mickey
>
> 77 plam beach
>
> anaheim ca.
>
>
>
> On May 24, 2012, at 8:51 AM, Work Jerry wrote:
>
> > Good info, Adrien. It is important to note that all things pertaining
> to steering geometry on our GMCs start with proper ride height. If a coach
> is not at the correct factory ride height front and rear, you cannot
> achieve proper alignment. Things like the anti-dive geometry and proper
> drive shaft angle to name just two are baked into the ride height and
> cannot be altered. Caster, camber, toe and frame parallelism can be
> adjusted even if the ride height is off but your coach still will not drive
> correctly and might wander with or without things like spacers and
> aftermarket sway bars. The other critical factor is that the GMC was
> designed for bias ply tires and the design was not changed (as far as I can
> tell) when they switched to radial ply tires in 76. Bias ply tires and
> radial ply tires exhibit very different rolling characteristics. At speed
> a bias ply tire will go egg shaped and the contact patch area will shift
> rearward which effectively increases the caster ang
> le
> > . Radial ply tires do not so additional caster must be dialed in at
> rest to compensate. Too much caster, however, will cause excessive
> steering effort and may overload the steering gear. You can read all about
> this in the slides from the presentation I gave at GMCWS Casa de Fruita
> rally last month. The presentation slides in .pdf format are available for
> free download on the GMCWS web site or my web site (http://jerrywork.com
> ).
> >
> > Jerry
> > Jerry Work
> > Fine furniture designed and hand crafted in the 1907 former Masonic
> Temple building in historic Kerby, OR
> > glwork@mac.com
> > http://jerrywork.com
> > 541-592-5360
> >
> > -------------------------
> > Message: 7
> > Date: Wed, 23 May 2012 19:21:14 -0500
> > From: Adrien Genesoto <fixman54@syix.com>
> > Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Wheel Spacers
> > To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> > Message-ID: <29ab1.4fbd7ef9@gmc.mybirdfeeder.net>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-15"
> >
> >
> >
> > Mac,
> >
> > I know about the tracking differences that is built in to our coaches
> (LOOKS, and rut tracking), but I Keep thinking about what spacers do to the
> designed 'front end geometry'.
> >
> > Not to mention the difference in load forces imposed on the hub
> bearings. I'm surprised that they're lasting like they do.
> >
> > Here are some site about FEG also none as Steering Geometry.
> >
> >> http://www.scribd.com/doc/15355738/Steering-Geometry-Angles <
> >
> >> http://www.motor.org.uk/documentlibrary/Sep%2009/TT%20_%20Sept%2009.pdf<
> >
> >>
> http://www.google.com/search?q=steering+geometry&hl=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=NXa9T5LtDsqliQKorZi5D w&sqi=2&ved=0CGoQsAQ&biw=1600&bih=688<
> >
> >
> > Just for information.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > ”When we avoid the mistakes we might have made, we sometimes make
> the mistakes that we might have avoided.”
> >
> >
> >
> > Adrien & Jenny
> > 75 Glenbrook
> > Yuba City,Ca.
> > -------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: [GMCnet] Wheel Spacers [message #191827 is a reply to message #191820] |
Sat, 01 December 2012 00:18 |
 |
WD0AFQ
Messages: 7111
Registered: November 2004
Location: Dexter, Mo.
Karma: 207
|
Senior Member |
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| jimk wrote on Fri, 30 November 2012 22:42 |
Mac,
There are several people that have traveled over100,000 miles with the 2"
wheel spacers with great success
The late Bobby Moore had over 120,000 miles on them and was a firm believer
that if the knuckle and bearing clearances are set properly, you'll not
have problems. Unfortunately most do not know how to check them out and
think they did it correctly.
Bill's data confirms my thought that the 1 ton design has it's draw backs,
and we have not been promoting it.
Like Dave Lenzi, I feel that the stock front unit when set properly
following Jerry's instruction is a safer approach.
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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Wo, where did that come from?
Dan
loving the new modern one ton setup
3 In Stainless Exhaust Headers
One Ton All Discs/Reaction Arm
355 FD/Quad Bag/Alum Radiator Manny Tran/New eng.
Holley EFI/10 Tire Air Monitoring System
Solarized Coach/Upgraded Windows
Satelite TV/On Demand Hot Water/3Way Refer
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| Re: [GMCnet] Wheel Spacers [message #191830 is a reply to message #191827] |
Sat, 01 December 2012 02:52 |
 |
hnielsen2
Messages: 1434
Registered: February 2004
Location: Alpine CA
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
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Who ever posted this.
Please do tell us all.
What draw back?
How could that be.
When you up grade to a modern one ton set up.
Thank You
All is well with my Lord
Howard
Alpine Ca
26' Canyon Lands
The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the
average voter
(Winston Churchill)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Gregg" <gregg_dan@hotmail.com>
To: <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2012 22:18
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Wheel Spacers
>
>
> jimk wrote on Fri, 30 November 2012 22:42
>> Mac,
>> There are several people that have traveled over100,000 miles with the 2"
>> wheel spacers with great success
>> The late Bobby Moore had over 120,000 miles on them and was a firm
>> believer
>> that if the knuckle and bearing clearances are set properly, you'll not
>> have problems. Unfortunately most do not know how to check them out and
>> think they did it correctly.
>> Bill's data confirms my thought that the 1 ton design has it's draw
>> backs,
>> and we have not been promoting it.
>> Like Dave Lenzi, I feel that the stock front unit when set properly
>> following Jerry's instruction is a safer approach.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Jim Kanomata
>> Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
>> jimk@appliedairfilters.com
>> http://www.appliedgmc.com
>> 1-800-752-7502
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
>
> Wo, where did that come from?
> Dan
> loving the new modern one ton setup
>
> --
> Dan & Teri Gregg
>
>
> http://danandteri.blogspot.com/
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
_______________________________________________
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All is well with my Lord
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| Re: [GMCnet] Wheel Spacers [message #191833 is a reply to message #191830] |
Sat, 01 December 2012 06:44 |
Steven Ferguson
Messages: 3447
Registered: May 2006
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
One of the drawbacks is the radical camber changes in motion due to unequal
length control arms. I think that the bearing and brake gains offset that
drawback. In the best of both worlds, new upper and lower control arms
made specifically for those 1 ton spindles is really the best way to go.
After trying for nearly 5 years to get a set designed and made for our
application, I gave up. With the limited market for the final product, the
expense would most likely be through the roof. Home brew would require
metal working equipment that is a bit too expensive for most of us.
On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 1:52 AM, Howard and Sue <hnielsen2@cox.net> wrote:
> Who ever posted this.
> Please do tell us all.
> What draw back?
> How could that be.
> When you up grade to a modern one ton set up.
> Thank You
> All is well with my Lord
> Howard
> Alpine Ca
> 26' Canyon Lands
> The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the
> average voter
> (Winston Churchill)
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dan Gregg" <gregg_dan@hotmail.com>
> To: <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, November 30, 2012 22:18
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Wheel Spacers
>
>
> >
> >
> > jimk wrote on Fri, 30 November 2012 22:42
> >> Mac,
> >> There are several people that have traveled over100,000 miles with the
> 2"
> >> wheel spacers with great success
> >> The late Bobby Moore had over 120,000 miles on them and was a firm
> >> believer
> >> that if the knuckle and bearing clearances are set properly, you'll not
> >> have problems. Unfortunately most do not know how to check them out and
> >> think they did it correctly.
> >> Bill's data confirms my thought that the 1 ton design has it's draw
> >> backs,
> >> and we have not been promoting it.
> >> Like Dave Lenzi, I feel that the stock front unit when set properly
> >> following Jerry's instruction is a safer approach.
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Jim Kanomata
> >> Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
> >> jimk@appliedairfilters.com
> >> http://www.appliedgmc.com
> >> 1-800-752-7502
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> GMCnet mailing list
> >> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> >> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
> >
> >
> > Wo, where did that come from?
> > Dan
> > loving the new modern one ton setup
> >
> > --
> > Dan & Teri Gregg
> >
> >
> > http://danandteri.blogspot.com/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > GMCnet mailing list
> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> > http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Fathom the hypocrisy of a nation where every citizen must prove they have
health insurance......but not everyone has to prove they're a citizen.
Steve Ferguson
Sierra Vista, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] Wheel Spacers [message #191838 is a reply to message #170758] |
Sat, 01 December 2012 07:07 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
|
Senior Member |
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| Robert Mueller wrote on Thu, 24 May 2012 18:40 |
Jerry,
Interesting observations re the steering geometry, what do you think about the information Bill Wevers put together?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Re: GMCMI Tech Session? [message #170050 is a reply to message #169677 ] Thu, 17 May 2012 21:09
This discussion got me wondering how the One Ton Mod affects the front suspension geometry. So I spent the last few days working on
an excel spreadsheet entering in the stock suspension numbers.
And then I plotted the Camber Change, Toe in change and front track change. The results can be seen here:
http://onetonsuspensionmods.shutterfly.com/pictures/9#11
I measured with a tape measure and got these numbers:
Lower Control Arm length = 14.75"
Upper " " = 9.75"
Stock spindle height = 9"
One Ton spindle height = 11" and various other dimensions.
See the images for the numbers I used.
What is interesting is how little toe change and track change there is with the stock suspension designed 50 years ago.
The one ton suspension seems to have a lot of camber and front track change.
I can send you the excel spreadsheet if you are interested.
Regards,
Bill
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Regards,
Rob M.
...
|
Wow, my brain hurts. I spent some time looking at these charts that Bill did which is why my brain hurts. 
Not sure I understand the conclusions. What I THINK I understand from the charts is this:
1- Stock geometry does not change camber/caster significant over range of travel. (desirable)
2- 'Standard 1 ton upgrade' (Modified stock spindle) DOES change significantly (not desirable)
3- Moving the upper inner control arm pivots up 2" corrects the
modified suspension geometry to even better than OEM (desirable).
Edited to reflect Ken Henderson's correct interpretation.
Are these the correct conclusions?
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
[Updated on: Sat, 01 December 2012 08:39] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: [GMCnet] Wheel Spacers [message #191848 is a reply to message #191838] |
Sat, 01 December 2012 08:09 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Kerry,
I think your conclusion #3 is misstated: It should read something like"
3- Moving the upper inner control arm pivots up 2" corrects the
modified suspension geometry to even better than OEM (desirable).
Ken H.
On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 8:07 AM, Kerry Pinkerton wrote:
> ...
> 3- Moving the upper ball joint up 2" in the modified upper control arm for
> the 1 ton conversion does not change the camber/caster significantly over
> the range of travel (desirable)
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Wheel Spacers [message #191857 is a reply to message #170726] |
Sat, 01 December 2012 09:02 |
 |
RF_Burns
Messages: 2277
Registered: June 2008
Location: S. Ontario, Canada
Karma: 3
|
Senior Member |
|
|
It would seem to me that a couple brackets could be made that bolt to the existing upper control arm mounting brackets to raise the control arm pivot point by 2".
I understand that this would create a lever arm against the existing brackets, but as been pointed out before, the upper arms are not carrying any weight, only horizontal forces. The lower control arms have much more force on them, horizontal plus carrying the weight. My coach is put to sleep for the winter so I can't check this out, but I don't recall the lower control arm mounting brackets being anymore substantial than the uppers. In any case I'm sure additional mounting points could be added to negate the lever arm forces.
This could be 2 separate brackets, or a one piece unit. The new mounting points could also be moved back slightly to increase caster... there ya go, kill two birds with one stone!
Anyone with metal forming skills / equipment up for the challenge?
On the other hand, the graph shows the changes over +/- 3" of travel (6" total range). It would be hard to measure, but in daily driving how much vertical travel really happens? Maybe half that or less?
OR maybe I'm missing something...
Bruce Hislop
ON Canada
77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.
1 ton front end
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that
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| Re: [GMCnet] Wheel Spacers [message #191859 is a reply to message #191822] |
Sat, 01 December 2012 09:11 |
Carl S.
Messages: 4186
Registered: January 2009
Location: Tucson, AZ.
Karma: 13
|
Senior Member |
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| Harry wrote on Fri, 30 November 2012 22:03 |
JimK;
I still think the original front suspension is adequate.
But, is there another way of getting away from those front bearings and the problem of changing them without the use of all the special tools?
If someone could come up with an alternative bearing replacement, I would go for it.
|
Not Jim K. But I might be able to answer your question.
Before Gene started promoting the Manny 1-ton system, he was all about "100,000 mile front bearings". Basically, this refers to a properly set up (like Dave Lensi does it) front hub/knuckle/bearing assembly, with grease zerks and grooved spacers installed. The theory is that you can flush the dirty grease out with new grease, periodically, and make your factory (modified and improved) system last almost indefinitely.
This is what I did four years ago and I am hoping to never have to replace bearings again. I'm very happy with this set-up.
Carl Stouffer
'75 ex Palm Beach
Tucson, AZ.
Chuck Aulgur Reaction Arm Disc Brakes, Quadrabags, 3.70 LSD final drive, Lenzi knuckles/hubs, Dodge Truck 16" X 8" front wheels, Rear American Eagles, Solar battery charging. GMCSJ and GMCMI member
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| Re: [GMCnet] Wheel Spacers [message #191865 is a reply to message #191857] |
Sat, 01 December 2012 09:22 |
Mr ERFisher
Messages: 7117
Registered: August 2005
Karma: 2
|
Senior Member |
|
|
has not proven to be a big deal on the 70+ "one ton VII", systems installed
by vendors.
- it is more of a factor that every GMC was not welded up (OEM) the same
with the control arms attach points.
Manny has made several "special" arms for these coaches
-- also differences in torson bars has required Manny to make special
pork-chops for some coaches to get the level right (before the conversion).
( it is really nice to have a vendor who can adapt, and make what we need
for our coaches)
gene
On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 7:02 AM, Bruce Hislop <bruce@perthcomm.com> wrote:
>
>
> It would seem to me that a couple brackets could be made that bolt to the
> existing upper control arm mounting brackets to raise the control arm pivot
> point by 2".
>
> I understand that this would create a lever arm against the existing
> brackets, but as been pointed out before, the upper arms are not carrying
> any weight, only horizontal forces. The lower control arms have much more
> force on them, horizontal plus carrying the weight. My coach is put to
> sleep for the winter so I can't check this out, but I don't recall the
> lower control arm mounting brackets being anymore substantial than the
> uppers. In any case I'm sure additional mounting points could be added to
> negate the lever arm forces.
>
> This could be 2 separate brackets, or a one piece unit. The new mounting
> points could also be moved back slightly to increase caster... there ya go,
> kill two birds with one stone!
>
> Anyone with metal forming skills / equipment up for the challenge?
>
>
> On the other hand, the graph shows the changes over +/- 3" of travel (6"
> total range). It would be hard to measure, but in daily driving how much
> vertical travel really happens? Maybe half that or less?
>
> OR maybe I'm missing something...
> --
> Bruce Hislop
> ON Canada
> 77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.
> Hubler 1 ton front end
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
> My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
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| Re: [GMCnet] Wheel Spacers [message #191867 is a reply to message #191857] |
Sat, 01 December 2012 09:23 |
Kosier
Messages: 834
Registered: February 2008
Karma: 1
|
Senior Member |
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Personally, I think one of the big improvements in the one-ton conversion is
the taller knuckles. It tends to correct a less-than-ideal front suspension
design. Having said that, I am NOT going to get into a pissing contest
with a bunch of self-styled chassis engineers. It's my personal opinion and
now I shall go read the funnies in the paper.
Gary Kosier
77PB & 77ELII
Newark, Oh
-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Hislop
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2012 10:02 AM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Wheel Spacers
It would seem to me that a couple brackets could be made that bolt to the
existing upper control arm mounting brackets to raise the control arm pivot
point by 2".
I understand that this would create a lever arm against the existing
brackets, but as been pointed out before, the upper arms are not carrying
any weight, only horizontal forces. The lower control arms have much more
force on them, horizontal plus carrying the weight. My coach is put to
sleep for the winter so I can't check this out, but I don't recall the lower
control arm mounting brackets being anymore substantial than the uppers. In
any case I'm sure additional mounting points could be added to negate the
lever arm forces.
This could be 2 separate brackets, or a one piece unit. The new mounting
points could also be moved back slightly to increase caster... there ya go,
kill two birds with one stone!
Anyone with metal forming skills / equipment up for the challenge?
On the other hand, the graph shows the changes over +/- 3" of travel (6"
total range). It would be hard to measure, but in daily driving how much
vertical travel really happens? Maybe half that or less?
OR maybe I'm missing something...
--
Bruce Hislop
ON Canada
77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.
Hubler 1 ton front end
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that
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| Re: [GMCnet] Wheel Spacers [message #191877 is a reply to message #191820] |
Sat, 01 December 2012 11:02 |
k2gkk
Messages: 4452
Registered: November 2009
Karma: -8
|
Senior Member |
|
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To which "Mac" are you referring, Jim K?
I have made no mention of spacers since I bought a set from another GMCer many months ago.
Mac in OKC
Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 30, 2012, at 22:42, "Jim Kanomata" <jimkanomata@gmail.com> wrote:
Mac,
There are several people that have traveled over100,000 miles with the 2"
wheel spacers with great success
The late Bobby Moore had over 120,000 miles on them and was a firm believer
that if the knuckle and bearing clearances are set properly, you'll not
have problems. Unfortunately most do not know how to check them out and
think they did it correctly.
Bill's data confirms my thought that the 1 ton design has it's draw backs,
and we have not been promoting it.
Like Dave Lenzi, I feel that the stock front unit when set properly
following Jerry's instruction is a safer approach.
On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 7:41 PM, Mickey Space Ship Shuttle <mickeysss@me.com
> wrote:
>
>
> If anyone needs a bearing puller set i just bought one, and if anyone in
> the anaheim area needs to use it let me know.
>
> If anyone wants to do mine with it and knows how, i will pay you as well.
>
> mickey
>
> 77 plam beach
>
> anaheim ca.
>
>
>
> On May 24, 2012, at 8:51 AM, Work Jerry wrote:
>
>> Good info, Adrien. It is important to note that all things pertaining
> to steering geometry on our GMCs start with proper ride height. If a coach
> is not at the correct factory ride height front and rear, you cannot
> achieve proper alignment. Things like the anti-dive geometry and proper
> drive shaft angle to name just two are baked into the ride height and
> cannot be altered. Caster, camber, toe and frame parallelism can be
> adjusted even if the ride height is off but your coach still will not drive
> correctly and might wander with or without things like spacers and
> aftermarket sway bars. The other critical factor is that the GMC was
> designed for bias ply tires and the design was not changed (as far as I can
> tell) when they switched to radial ply tires in 76. Bias ply tires and
> radial ply tires exhibit very different rolling characteristics. At speed
> a bias ply tire will go egg shaped and the contact patch area will shift
> rearward which effectively increases the caster ang
> le
>> . Radial ply tires do not so additional caster must be dialed in at
> rest to compensate. Too much caster, however, will cause excessive
> steering effort and may overload the steering gear. You can read all about
> this in the slides from the presentation I gave at GMCWS Casa de Fruita
> rally last month. The presentation slides in .pdf format are available for
> free download on the GMCWS web site or my web site (http://jerrywork.com
> ).
>>
>> Jerry
>> Jerry Work
>> Fine furniture designed and hand crafted in the 1907 former Masonic
> Temple building in historic Kerby, OR
>> glwork@mac.com
>> http://jerrywork.com
>> 541-592-5360
>>
>> -------------------------
>> Message: 7
>> Date: Wed, 23 May 2012 19:21:14 -0500
>> From: Adrien Genesoto <fixman54@syix.com>
>> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Wheel Spacers
>> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
>> Message-ID: <29ab1.4fbd7ef9@gmc.mybirdfeeder.net>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-15"
>>
>>
>>
>> Mac,
>>
>> I know about the tracking differences that is built in to our coaches
> (LOOKS, and rut tracking), but I Keep thinking about what spacers do to the
> designed 'front end geometry'.
>>
>> Not to mention the difference in load forces imposed on the hub
> bearings. I'm surprised that they're lasting like they do.
>>
>> Here are some site about FEG also none as Steering Geometry.
>>
>>> http://www.scribd.com/doc/15355738/Steering-Geometry-Angles <
>>
>>> http://www.motor.org.uk/documentlibrary/Sep%2009/TT%20_%20Sept%2009.pdf<
>>
>>>
> http://www.google.com/search?q=steering+geometry&hl=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=NXa9T5LtDsqliQKorZi5D w&sqi=2&ved=0CGoQsAQ&biw=1600&bih=688<
>>
>>
>> Just for information.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> ”When we avoid the mistakes we might have made, we sometimes make
> the mistakes that we might have avoided.”
>>
>>
>>
>> Adrien & Jenny
>> 75 Glenbrook
>> Yuba City,Ca.
>> -------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: [GMCnet] Wheel Spacers [message #191881 is a reply to message #170726] |
Sat, 01 December 2012 11:29 |
|
RF_Burns
Messages: 2277
Registered: June 2008
Location: S. Ontario, Canada
Karma: 3
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Well I guess I overstepped my bounds once again.
I love my one-ton and would not go back to OEM. Brakes, handling and just feels more in control going down the road. Over the 10,000 miles or so of experience I have on my one-ton and looking at the narrow range of movement I believe there to be, I'm not sure adjusting for the upper control arm would bring enough benefit.
I never said I was a wannabe engineer, just a farmboy mechanic. I was throwing out there what seemed to be a solution.
I'll just go back to keeping my ideas and comments to myself.
| Quote: |
Personally, I think one of the big improvements in the one-ton conversion is
the taller knuckles. It tends to correct a less-than-ideal front suspension
design. Having said that, I am NOT going to get into a pissing contest
with a bunch of self-styled chassis engineers. It's my personal opinion and
now I shall go read the funnies in the paper.
Gary Kosier
77PB & 77ELII
Newark, Oh
|
Bruce Hislop
ON Canada
77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.
1 ton front end
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that
|
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| Re: [GMCnet] Wheel Spacers [message #191885 is a reply to message #191833] |
Sat, 01 December 2012 12:28 |
|
hnielsen2
Messages: 1434
Registered: February 2004
Location: Alpine CA
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Steve;
Thank you.
That was all I wanted to know.
Here is the plus I can get the one ton installed for just a little more then
rebuilding the stock unit.
I'm going for the newer set up in January.
After that no more busting my butt pulling the old unit apart.
I'll have a puller and the stock parts for sale after January.
Our GMC handles very well.
My wife and I can driver our GMC with one hand
All is well with my Lord
Howard
Alpine Ca
26' Canyon Lands
The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the
average voter
(Winston Churchill)
Income redistribution.
What?
Should I give my allowance to the kid down the street?
Go and get your own allowance.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steven Ferguson" <botiemad11@gmail.com>
To: <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2012 04:44
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Wheel Spacers
> One of the drawbacks is the radical camber changes in motion due to
> unequal
> length control arms. I think that the bearing and brake gains offset that
> drawback. In the best of both worlds, new upper and lower control arms
> made specifically for those 1 ton spindles is really the best way to go.
> After trying for nearly 5 years to get a set designed and made for our
> application, I gave up. With the limited market for the final product,
> the
> expense would most likely be through the roof. Home brew would require
> metal working equipment that is a bit too expensive for most of us.
>
> On Sat, Dec 1, 2012 at 1:52 AM, Howard and Sue <hnielsen2@cox.net> wrote:
>
>> Who ever posted this.
>> Please do tell us all.
>> What draw back?
>> How could that be.
>> When you up grade to a modern one ton set up.
>> Thank You
>> All is well with my Lord
>> Howard
>> Alpine Ca
>> 26' Canyon Lands
>> The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with
>> the
>> average voter
>> (Winston Churchill)
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Dan Gregg" <gregg_dan@hotmail.com>
>> To: <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
>> Sent: Friday, November 30, 2012 22:18
>> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Wheel Spacers
>>
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > jimk wrote on Fri, 30 November 2012 22:42
>> >> Mac,
>> >> There are several people that have traveled over100,000 miles with the
>> 2"
>> >> wheel spacers with great success
>> >> The late Bobby Moore had over 120,000 miles on them and was a firm
>> >> believer
>> >> that if the knuckle and bearing clearances are set properly, you'll
>> >> not
>> >> have problems. Unfortunately most do not know how to check them out
>> >> and
>> >> think they did it correctly.
>> >> Bill's data confirms my thought that the 1 ton design has it's draw
>> >> backs,
>> >> and we have not been promoting it.
>> >> Like Dave Lenzi, I feel that the stock front unit when set properly
>> >> following Jerry's instruction is a safer approach.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Jim Kanomata
>> >> Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
>> >> jimk@appliedairfilters.com
>> >> http://www.appliedgmc.com
>> >> 1-800-752-7502
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> GMCnet mailing list
>> >> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> >> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>> >
>> >
>> > Wo, where did that come from?
>> > Dan
>> > loving the new modern one ton setup
>> >
>> > --
>> > Dan & Teri Gregg
>> >
>> >
>> > http://danandteri.blogspot.com/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > GMCnet mailing list
>> > Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> > http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Fathom the hypocrisy of a nation where every citizen must prove they have
> health insurance......but not everyone has to prove they're a citizen.
> Steve Ferguson
> Sierra Vista, AZ
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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All is well with my Lord
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| Re: [GMCnet] Wheel Spacers [message #191892 is a reply to message #191881] |
Sat, 01 December 2012 13:45 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Nonsense - throw 'em out there and let folks hassle over 'em. Every once in a while a pearl falls out.
\
--johnny
'76 23' transmode norris
'76 palm beach
From: Bruce Hislop <bruce@perthcomm.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Saturday, December 1, 2012 12:29 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Wheel Spacers
Well I guess I overstepped my bounds once again.
I love my one-ton and would not go back to OEM. Brakes, handling and just feels more in control going down the road. Over the 10,000 miles or so of experience I have on my one-ton and looking at the narrow range of movement I believe there to be, I'm not sure adjusting for the upper control arm would bring enough benefit.
I never said I was a wannabe engineer, just a farmboy mechanic. I was throwing out there what seemed to be a solution.
I'll just go back to keeping my ideas and comments to myself.
Quote:
> Personally, I think one of the big improvements in the one-ton conversion is
> the taller knuckles. It tends to correct a less-than-ideal front suspension
> design. Having said that, I am NOT going to get into a pissing contest
> with a bunch of self-styled chassis engineers. It's my personal opinion and
> now I shall go read the funnies in the paper.
>
> Gary Kosier
> 77PB & 77ELII
> Newark, Oh
--
Bruce Hislop
ON Canada
77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.
Hubler 1 ton front end
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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