Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] Scuderi Split Cycle Engine
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Scuderi Split Cycle Engine [message #166309 is a reply to message #166217] |
Sat, 14 April 2012 08:12   |
 |
Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Yesterday was a solid day of work. A rare thing these days and I have to make the most of any that come along.
I have a friend (he is still a friend) that has made a hobby of collecting information on different internal combustion engines. He has designs much like this in that collection. Some have even been built and used. Only those that were successful enough for some long term production are familiar to most people. I will not go of topic here in spite of the obvious temptation.
In thermodynamics, engines are defined by either their PV (pressure/volume) cycle or their TE (temperature/Enthalpy) cycle (that last one will take a long time to explain to a non-engineers, but it is the change in energy and the change in potential to store energy). There are many more designs of engines than most people are aware of. All but a very few in the current world fit into one of four simple categories. I will not describe the features of each because that would add more to this than I intend to write. Those four are Otto, Diesel, (both are actually very rare), Modified (Otto or Diesel - pretty much the same and what most are) and Rankin (turboshaft engines). These descriptions are used without regard to the hardware used to product the cycle.
I have only run a few true prototype engines in my career. I have seen as many more that were supposed to be operational. Even that few is more than one might expect when one considers the cost of building an operational prototype.
One of the things long understood about the 4-stroke Otto engine is that the efficiency is directly related to the expansion ration and the engine design makes the compression ratio the same as the expansion ratio. This is just one of the reason that little diesels do so well. Another unfortunate situation is that the compression side of the engine wants to be cooled as much as it can and the combustion side wants to be cooled only enough for the components to survive. Scuderi could get this right. So, there are two places that this design could win. The man speaking mentioned a charge air accumulator. This could be interesting as it could be used a clean air scavenging system. I would also like to know how they plan to control the power output of the SI version of the engine as there is no good place to throttle the airstream that would not hammer the thermal efficiency.
It is interesting that this design (except for the turbocharger pictured) could be done with no higher parts count or manufacturing precision than is in current production engines.
What I would have to do at this point is read the patent claims to understand what made this patentable. I will bet you that there is a prototype that has or will be tested in this town already, and that is just Detroit. The foreign manufactures watch developments and patents just as hard.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Scuderi Split Cycle Engine [message #166311 is a reply to message #166217] |
Sat, 14 April 2012 08:59 |
skip2
Messages: 544
Registered: September 2011
Location: Winter Haven,FL (center o...
Karma: 3
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Does anybody remember the wankel rotary. I can't remember if it was more or less economical. I remember that all kind of records were set by OMC they just couldn't build a gearcase that could handle the rpm and power.
Skip
74 Canyon Lands, FiTech,
3.7 FD LSD, Manny Tranny,
Springfield Distributor,
2001 Chevy Tracker Ragtop Towd
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Scuderi Split Cycle Engine [message #166415 is a reply to message #166311] |
Sun, 15 April 2012 13:26 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Mazda still fits them to their sports car.
Racers said the trick was to keep the tip seals on the rotor alive at high RPM. They weren't particularly economic at the outset, but made good power for the displacement.
GM paid a reported $50 million for the US auto production rights, but never marketed one. Suzuki built some biles with one, but had seal problems.
Supposedly, they were very hard to clean up, though this may have changed. Surely some of our Detroit types have more information on them.
--johnny
'76 23' transmode norris
'76 palm beach.
From: Skip Hartline <skiphartline@aol.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2012 9:59 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Scuderi Split Cycle Engine
Does anybody remember the wankel rotary. I can't remember if it was more or less economical. I remember that all kind of records were set by OMC they just couldn't build a gearcase that could handle the rpm and power.
Skip
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Scuderi Split Cycle Engine [message #166436 is a reply to message #166311] |
Sun, 15 April 2012 16:59 |
Don A
Messages: 895
Registered: October 2008
Location: Dallas, TX
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
| skip2 wrote on Sat, 14 April 2012 08:59 |
Does anybody remember the wankel rotary. Skip
|
The Mazda RX8 is the last car to use a rotary engine. Mazda will halt production after this year. So says the PopMech article mentioned in another msg about Jim K and others in the Brotherhood of the Wrench.
Don Adams Dallas, TX
'76 26' Glenbrook, '90 Sidekick
rebuilt by R Archer, powered by J Bounds, Koba
[IMG]http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/data/6109/G2.jpg[/IMG]
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Scuderi Split Cycle Engine [message #166500 is a reply to message #166415] |
Mon, 16 April 2012 12:16 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
|
Senior Member |
|
|
""GM paid a reported $50 million for the US auto production rights, but never marketed one. Suzuki built some biles with one, but had seal problems.
Supposedly, they were very hard to clean up, though this may have changed. Surely some of our Detroit types have more information on them.
""
There's quite a story behind GM's effort. It was going to debut in the Monza (Vega based) and was tooled by Hydramatic. Ed Cole was the sponser and pretty well everone else hated it. The day Ed retired, people were dispatched across the organization to fetch and scrap every engine and component they could find. A few miscellaneous parts such as rotors were hidden in desk drawers as momentos. The Monza was already in prototype form and had to quickly be retooled to accept regular powertrains. The center tunnel was very high in order to accept the central output of the Wankel. Also, the round motif was extended throught the vehicle styling to emphasize the Wankel. Things light headlights were converted to rectangular shapes. I would guess that GM probably spent over a billion on that effort--and yes, it was also going to go into the midengine aluminum Vette. Fitting the V-8 into the Monza proved disastrous due to lack of testing and the tight engine compartment.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Scuderi Split Cycle Engine [message #166507 is a reply to message #166500] |
Mon, 16 April 2012 14:13 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Interesting. The engine, for all its drawbacks, dioes make gobs of power.
I also heard Duntov nixed a prototype Fiero with an aluminum turbomotor in it because "We'd never sell another Corvette if that car is produced". Any truth to that?
--johnny
'76 23' transmode norris
'76 palm beach
From: Bob de Kruyff <NEXT2POOL@AOL.COM>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2012 1:16 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Scuderi Split Cycle Engine
""GM paid a reported $50 million for the US auto production rights, but never marketed one. Suzuki built some biles with one, but had seal problems.
Supposedly, they were very hard to clean up, though this may have changed. Surely some of our Detroit types have more information on them.
""
There's quite a story behind GM's effort. It was going to debut in the Monza (Vega based) and was tooled by Hydramatic. Ed Cole was the sponser and pretty well everone else hated it. The day Ed retired, people were dispatched across the organization to fetch and scrap every engine and component they could find. A few miscellaneous parts such as rotors were hidden in desk drawers as momentos. The Monza was already in prototype form and had to quickly be retooled to accept regular powertrains. The center tunnel was very high in order to accept the central output of the Wankel. Also, the round motif was extended throught the vehicle styling to emphasize the Wankel. Things light headlights were converted to rectangular shapes. I would guess that GM probably spent over a billion on that effort--and yes, it was also going to go into the midengine aluminum Vette. Fitting the V-8 into the Monza proved disastrous due to lack of testing and the tight engine
compartment.
--
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Scuderi Split Cycle Engine [message #166515 is a reply to message #166217] |
Mon, 16 April 2012 15:03 |
Steve Jess
Messages: 169
Registered: April 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Bob wrote:
"There's quite a story behind GM's effort..."
One additional factoid about the GMRE (GM Rotary Engine): AMC had contracted to buy the engines from GM, and was already well along with designing a car around it when the engine was cancelled. Afterward, AMC had to make do with shoehorning a straight-six and eventually a V8 into the body designed for a rotary.
That car was the Pacer.
Finally, getting even farther off-topic, I understand AMC was offered the GMC MotorHome design and tooling after GMC cancelled it. Of course, they said no thanks. I wonder if, in some alternate universe, AM General (a part of AMC at the time) ended up building an armored GMC MotorHome instead of the HMMVV?
Steve Jess - Boise, ID
1977 GMC Palm Beach "The DreamLiner"The 10,000 pound antique Home Theater with plumbing
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Scuderi Split Cycle Engine [message #166517 is a reply to message #166507] |
Mon, 16 April 2012 15:27 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
|
Senior Member |
|
|
""Interesting. The engine, for all its drawbacks, dioes make gobs of power.
I also heard Duntov nixed a prototype Fiero with an aluminum turbomotor in it because "We'd never sell another Corvette if that car is produced". Any truth to that?
""
I had never heard that but sounds reasonable but I think Duntov was long gone from GM around Fiero time--not sure though.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Scuderi Split Cycle Engine [message #166526 is a reply to message #166517] |
Mon, 16 April 2012 18:31 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
|
Senior Member |
|
|
That's why I ask somebody (you) who was there. Rumors get twisted. Although a Fire-O GT with a high output engine would likely eat the 'vette.
--johnny
'76 23' transmode norris
'76 palm beach
From: Bob de Kruyff <NEXT2POOL@AOL.COM>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2012 4:27 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Scuderi Split Cycle Engine
""Interesting. The engine, for all its drawbacks, dioes make gobs of power.
I also heard Duntov nixed a prototype Fiero with an aluminum turbomotor in it because "We'd never sell another Corvette if that car is produced". Any truth to that?
""
I had never heard that but sounds reasonable but I think Duntov was long gone from GM around Fiero time--not sure though.
--
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Scuderi Split Cycle Engine [message #166527 is a reply to message #166515] |
Mon, 16 April 2012 18:39 |
|
|
Wow! I'm amazed! Never heard anything about this. Makes you wonder ....
bdub
-----Original Message-----
From: On Behalf Of Steve Jess
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2012 3:04 PM
Bob wrote:
"There's quite a story behind GM's effort..."
One additional factoid about the GMRE (GM Rotary Engine): AMC had contracted
to buy the engines from GM, and was already well along with designing a car
around it when the engine was cancelled. Afterward, AMC had to make do with
shoehorning a straight-six and eventually a V8 into the body designed for a
rotary.
That car was the Pacer.
Finally, getting even farther off-topic, I understand AMC was offered the
GMC MotorHome design and tooling after GMC cancelled it. Of course, they
said no thanks. I wonder if, in some alternate universe, AM General (a part
of AMC at the time) ended up building an armored GMC MotorHome instead of
the HMMVV?
Steve Jess - Boise, ID
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
bdub
bdub.net
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Scuderi Split Cycle Engine [message #166535 is a reply to message #166500] |
Mon, 16 April 2012 19:54 |
|
Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
|
Senior Member |
|
|
| Bob de Kruyff wrote on Mon, 16 April 2012 13:16 |
There's quite a story behind GM's effort. It was going to debut in the Monza (Vega based) and was tooled by Hydramatic. Ed Cole was the sponser and pretty well everyone else hated it. The day Ed retired, people were dispatched across the organization to fetch and scrap every engine and component they could find. A few miscellaneous parts such as rotors were hidden in desk drawers as momentos. The Monza was already in prototype form and had to quickly be retooled to accept regular powertrains. The center tunnel was very high in order to accept the central output of the Wankel. Also, the round motif was extended throught the vehicle styling to emphasize the Wankel. Things light headlights were converted to rectangular shapes. I would guess that GM probably spent over a billion on that effort--and yes, it was also going to go into the midengine aluminum Vette. Fitting the V-8 into the Monza proved disastrous due to lack of testing and the tight engine compartment.
|
Bob,
I had heard that story as well. Was talking to one of the people I knew had been on the project, I made a short quip about how I might get to see one in a museum.... He replied that there were "no surviving examples". I believed him. That is until Eastern States last fall when we got the a day at the Automotive Heritage Museum in Ypsilanti (You remember Ypsi?). I was wondering and looking at the neat collection and there was a GM Wankle motor - Complete - Ready to install - I was GobSmacked.... I walked back to the Curator/Director/Owner and asked how he got that. He said he got a call from an interesting person at Hydramatic, there was some stuff that the would scrap and would he like to look at it before is was - Oh, and there is a crate. Don't open it while any company people are around. If you don't want it, find someone that does.
And there it sits.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Scuderi Split Cycle Engine [message #166561 is a reply to message #166535] |
Mon, 16 April 2012 22:03 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
|
Senior Member |
|
|
""I was wondering and looking at the neat collection and there was a GM Wankle motor - Complete - Ready to install - I was GobSmacked.... I walked back to the Curator/Director/Owner and asked how he got that. He said he got a call from an interesting person at Hydramatic, there was some stuff that the would scrap and would he like to look at it before is was - Oh, and there is a crate. Don't open it while any company people are around. If you don't want it, find someone that does.
And there it sits.
""
Great sequel Matt--I may have to go and see that. I do have a GM model used for the patent application. It is for the twin charged Vette. It's only about 6 or 8" tal but it serves to show how the rotor moves. I've had some great ideas after a few drinks, but never ever could have dreamed this up !
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
|
|
|
|
Goto Forum:
Current Time: Sun Jul 07 15:43:00 CDT 2024
Total time taken to generate the page: 0.05827 seconds
|
GMCforum
Search
Help
Register
Login
Home
