Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Tight steering (What next?)
| Tight steering [message #164175] |
Sun, 25 March 2012 20:12  |
gbarrow2
Messages: 765
Registered: February 2004
Location: Lake Almanor, Ca./ Red Bl...
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I have asked this question a couple of times in the past: Have never gotten a good response. I'm sure some others must have had this experience.
Over the past few years I have replaced everything in the steering system except the power steering pump and the steering damper.
My coach handles great now and the only complaint I have is that it is somewhat harder to turn than other coaches that I have driven. Harder than I would like. I have driven other coaches that require less effort than a Csdillac. None that I have driven require as much effort to turn as mine.
I can live with it as is but I would prefer to turn with less effort.
Any suggestions????
Thanks!!
Gene Barrow
Lake Almanor, Ca.
1976 Palm Beach
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| Re: Tight steering [message #164288 is a reply to message #164175] |
Mon, 26 March 2012 22:17  |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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| gbarrow wrote on Sun, 25 March 2012 21:12 |
I have asked this question a couple of times in the past: Have never gotten a good response. I'm sure some others must have had this experience.
Over the past few years I have replaced everything in the steering system except the power steering pump and the steering damper.
My coach handles great now and the only complaint I have is that it is somewhat harder to turn than other coaches that I have driven. Harder than I would like. I have driven other coaches that require less effort than a Csdillac. None that I have driven require as much effort to turn as mine.
I can live with it as is but I would prefer to turn with less effort.
Any suggestions????
Thanks!!
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Gene,
I am not GMC expert. There are a few of those that may come along. But, I do know a whole lot about most power steering.
In most systems there are only two pieces, the pump and the steering box(or power rack). You say you have not replaced the pump or the damper. Most all dampers get less damped with age, but unbolt it and see what happens. It's easy. (I know.)
Our coaches have third element that is the wiper pump and filter. It might be worth your while to at least inspect and clean the filter before you spend any money. If it is restricting the working fluid flow, the steering system will be less than responsive.
If you don't find any issue with the filter, the pump is a relatively inexpensive part to replace.
Pumps have two parts that matter. The pump element and the really strange controlling valve that limits both pressure and flow. The pump element is very easily damage by wear. Everything will look and behave about as it should, but the low speed pressure and flow will be lower than nominal. This will cause hard steering. There is also a strange valve arrangement that limits the maximum pressure and also the flow by by-passing the pump's output. The flow control is really only an issue at higher speeds.
You said you replaced everything but and did not exclude the steering box. If it is possible that the one you put in has the wrong gain, that could be part of your issue. The steering boxes are another study in Goldbergesk complexity. I have only heard of one losing its gain (increasing steering effort once in my life, and that one was destroyed by an owner putting a vary wrong fluid in as a replacement.
So, check the filter (strainer) and then think about replacing the pump.
Matt Colie
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] Tight steering [message #164292 is a reply to message #164288] |
Mon, 26 March 2012 22:27 |
sgltrac
Messages: 2797
Registered: April 2011
Karma: 1
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As an add to Matts reply I pulled the filter out of my wiper motor on my 77 and the filter from a donor coach wiper and both were extremely restricted. Will this cause stiff steering I know not but it could cause a blown hose.
Sully
77 royale
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: Matt Colie <matt7323tze@gmail.com>
Sender: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 22:17:45
To: <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
Reply-To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Tight steering
gbarrow wrote on Sun, 25 March 2012 21:12
> I have asked this question a couple of times in the past: Have never gotten a good response. I'm sure some others must have had this experience.
>
> Over the past few years I have replaced everything in the steering system except the power steering pump and the steering damper.
>
> My coach handles great now and the only complaint I have is that it is somewhat harder to turn than other coaches that I have driven. Harder than I would like. I have driven other coaches that require less effort than a Csdillac. None that I have driven require as much effort to turn as mine.
>
> I can live with it as is but I would prefer to turn with less effort.
>
> Any suggestions????
>
> Thanks!!
Gene,
I am not GMC expert. There are a few of those that may come along. But, I do know a whole lot about most power steering.
In most systems there are only two pieces, the pump and the steering box(or power rack). You say you have not replaced the pump or the damper. Most all dampers get less damped with age, but unbolt it and see what happens. It's easy. (I know.)
Our coaches have third element that is the wiper pump and filter. It might be worth your while to at least inspect and clean the filter before you spend any money. If it is restricting the working fluid flow, the steering system will be less than responsive.
If you don't find any issue with the filter, the pump is a relatively inexpensive part to replace.
Pumps have two parts that matter. The pump element and the really strange controlling valve that limits both pressure and flow. The pump element is very easily damage by wear. Everything will look and behave about as it should, but the low speed pressure and flow will be lower than nominal. This will cause hard steering. There is also a strange valve arrangement that limits the maximum pressure and also the flow by by-passing the pump's output. The flow control is really only an issue at higher speeds.
You said you replaced everything but and did not exclude the steering box. If it is possible that the one you put in has the wrong gain, that could be part of your issue. The steering boxes are another study in Goldbergesk complexity. I have only heard of one losing its gain (increasing steering effort once in my life, and that one was destroyed by an owner putting a vary wrong fluid in as a replacement.
So, check the filter (strainer) and then think about replacing the pump.
Matt Colie
--
Matt & Mary Colie
'73 Glacier 23 Chaumière (say show-me-air) Just about as stock as you will find
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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Sully
77 Royale basket case.
Future motorhome land speed record holder(bucket list)
Seattle, Wa.
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| Re: Tight steering [message #164462 is a reply to message #164288] |
Wed, 28 March 2012 12:42 |
gbarrow2
Messages: 765
Registered: February 2004
Location: Lake Almanor, Ca./ Red Bl...
Karma: 3
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Senior Member |
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Matt and Sully,
Thanks for the info.
I checked-I have no filter in the wiper motor line. The wipers work fine so I assume no restrictions in the system.
I will remove the damper but I assumed as you stated the failure is loosness not tightness.
I don't know the details of the steering gear but there was no change when I replaced the box.
The pump is probably the least expensive component of the steering system; so cost is not a factor. I just hate changing parts without knowing for sure that I will get an improvement. But it seems that the pump is the only thing left.
Gene Barrow
Lake Almanor, Ca.
1976 Palm Beach
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| Re: Tight steering [message #164469 is a reply to message #164175] |
Wed, 28 March 2012 13:51 |
voodoolng
Messages: 40
Registered: February 2004
Location: Colo
Karma: 0
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If you find the steering harder to turn alot of guys replaced the powersteering pump and caused a problem. Theres a regulator on the back of the powersteering pump that set the psi to the steering box. If you exchange the pump you may end up with less pressure causing the steering wheel to be harder to move.
So if its original keep that brass fitting and move it to the new pump, most guys let it go as part of the exchange.
73 Glacier Voodoo lounge
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| Re: Tight steering [message #164476 is a reply to message #164175] |
Wed, 28 March 2012 14:56 |
C Boyd
Messages: 2629
Registered: April 2006
Karma: 18
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Hi Gene: If you remove the pressure line at the pump then remove the fitting / pressure valve and remove any shim washers you find and put it back on. This will increase the pressure a little. Might help?
| gbarrow wrote on Sun, 25 March 2012 21:12 |
I have asked this question a couple of times in the past: Have never gotten a good response. I'm sure some others must have had this experience.
Over the past few years I have replaced everything in the steering system except the power steering pump and the steering damper.
My coach handles great now and the only complaint I have is that it is somewhat harder to turn than other coaches that I have driven. Harder than I would like. I have driven other coaches that require less effort than a Csdillac. None that I have driven require as much effort to turn as mine.
I can live with it as is but I would prefer to turn with less effort.
Any suggestions????
Thanks!!
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C. Boyd
76 Crestmont
East Tennessee
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| Re: Tight steering [message #164542 is a reply to message #164288] |
Thu, 29 March 2012 01:21 |
bukzin
Messages: 840
Registered: April 2004
Location: North California
Karma: 0
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Does anyone have a photo of the wiper filter and it's housing?
Thanks!
Bukzin
1977 Palm Beach
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| Re: Tight steering [message #164566 is a reply to message #164542] |
Thu, 29 March 2012 10:20 |
gbarrow2
Messages: 765
Registered: February 2004
Location: Lake Almanor, Ca./ Red Bl...
Karma: 3
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Senior Member |
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Richard,
Sending you a picture of OEM housing and a supplemental filter installed by another GMC'r.
How hard does your coach steer/
Gene Barrow
Lake Almanor, Ca.
1976 Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Tight steering [message #164592 is a reply to message #164563] |
Thu, 29 March 2012 12:58 |
gbarrow2
Messages: 765
Registered: February 2004
Location: Lake Almanor, Ca./ Red Bl...
Karma: 3
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Senior Member |
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Gene,
Thanks for the link. Good information; but as is often the case on this forum it addresses a question that wasn't asked.
Changing the pump is a no brainer. The question is: how to determine whether the pump is at fault before changing it.
The brass fitting on the back mentioned by Voodoolng is in place.
Don't see how one would connect the pressure hose if the fitting were absent.
The pump doesn't leak, squeal, or make any other unusual noises.
Nothing in the steering linkages appear to be binding. But I will check the lube in the steering CV joint as suggested by Gary W.
Don't know how to verify the "gain" in steering gear box as per Matt.
My complaint isn't aboout slow speed turning such as while parking.
The irritation is at highway speed 65-70 mph; the tightness while making minor steering corrections tend to cause over correction.
Difficult to describe; I'll have to attend a rally and get some of you experts to drive my coach.
If it is as good as it gets then I'll stop whining.
Thanks to all for suggestions.
Gene Barrow
Lake Almanor, Ca.
1976 Palm Beach
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| Re: Tight steering [message #164601 is a reply to message #164476] |
Thu, 29 March 2012 14:37 |
gbarrow2
Messages: 765
Registered: February 2004
Location: Lake Almanor, Ca./ Red Bl...
Karma: 3
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Senior Member |
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Chuck,
Thanks for the suggestion. If nothing else comes up I'll try that before replacing the pump. Looks like I can do it with the pump still mounted on the engine.
Thanks again for your hospitality and all the help on the transit coach last Sept.
Gene Barrow
Lake Almanor, Ca.
1976 Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Tight steering [message #164602 is a reply to message #164592] |
Thu, 29 March 2012 14:51 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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""The irritation is at highway speed 65-70 mph; the tightness while making minor steering corrections tend to cause over correction.
""
Ah Hah--if that's the case, most likely the on center adjustment of the gear is too tight. Although some of us are comfortable doing that, you have to proceed with caution. On the side of the box, there's an aluminum plate with an adjusting screw and a 5/8 lock nut. You can try loosening the lock nut while holding the adjusting screw with an allen wrench so it doesn't turn while loosening the lock nut. Then turn the adjusting screw about 1/4 turn out or counter clockwise. Tighten the lock nut while holding the adjusting screw and give it a try. Many replacement gears are set up too tightly on center and it becomes extremely annoying.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] Tight steering [message #164609 is a reply to message #164592] |
Thu, 29 March 2012 15:57 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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| gbarrow wrote on Thu, 29 March 2012 13:58 |
Gene,
Thanks for the link. Good information; but as is often the case on this forum it addresses a question that wasn't asked.
Changing the pump is a no brainer. The question is: how to determine whether the pump is at fault before changing it.
The brass fitting on the back mentioned by Voodoolng is in place.
Don't see how one would connect the pressure hose if the fitting were absent.
The pump doesn't leak, squeal, or make any other unusual noises.
Nothing in the steering linkages appear to be binding. But I will check the lube in the steering CV joint as suggested by Gary W.
Don't know how to verify the "gain" in steering gear box as per Matt.
My complaint isn't aboout slow speed turning such as while parking.
The irritation is at highway speed 65-70 mph; the tightness while making minor steering corrections tend to cause over correction.
Difficult to describe; I'll have to attend a rally and get some of you experts to drive my coach.
If it is as good as it gets then I'll stop whining.
Thanks to all for suggestions.
|
Gene,
The clarification was good.
It is not the pump. A pump going out (without getting noisy) has almost exactly the opposite effect - bad slow, but ok fast.
Now I am in line with Chuck and Bob, look for a binding in the steering column. If it did not change when you changed out the the steering box, I would reserve checking that for last only because the replacement should (SHould) have been set up correctly.
There are several things between the wheel and the box that could be binding. Hearing what you are saying, I would start by checking them out. You can uncouple the column at the top of the steering box very easily (with the grill removed). and the column should rotate very freely with the slip joint held close to the box shaft. You should be able to separate and drag in the column, CV or slipjoint.
Gain can be measured, but that is not you issue either.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] Tight steering [message #164610 is a reply to message #164609] |
Thu, 29 March 2012 16:00 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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""Gene,
The clarification was good.
It is not the pump. A pump going out (without getting noisy) has almost exactly the opposite effect - bad slow, but ok fast.
Now I am in line with Chuck and Bob, look for a binding in the steering column. If it did not change when you changed out the the steering box, I would reserve checking that for last only because the replacement should (SHould) have been set up correctly.
There are several things between the wheel and the box that could be binding. Hearing what you are saying, I would start by checking them out. You can uncouple the column at the top of the steering box very easily (with the grill removed). and the column should rotate very freely with the slip joint held close to the box shaft. You should be able to separate and drag in the column, CV or slipjoint.
Gain can be measured, but that is not you issue either.
Matt "'
Yes, any binding on the input side will get very tiring and aggravating on the highway. Your clarification will send this in a different direction 
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: Tight steering [message #164649 is a reply to message #164175] |
Thu, 29 March 2012 19:33 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
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Senior Member |
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If it were my coach, I would try to isolate the real issue. I'd disconnect the drag link at the Pittman arm and jack up the coach on the X member. I'd do the 2 arm feel test on the the front tires lock to lock and check for any binding. Then lower and run the engine and turn the wheel lock to lock to see how that felt and if any bind. especially in the coupling. If all that was OK I'd check pressures with the correct J tool inline. IF all that is OK then remove the box and reset the preloads per the Wirth papers. Do you know how much caster you have dialed in????
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: [GMCnet] Tight steering [message #164676 is a reply to message #164592] |
Thu, 29 March 2012 22:38 |
mickeysss
Messages: 1476
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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I think the gears are worn inside i had one on my dodge van and my super mechanic stated change the box.
I idid and it went away, if it strips while you are driving it could get ugly, now this may be wrong, but if it moves
with corrections that are rather shocking but just enough not to get to scared, it was teeth worn out in the box.
It they strip, they do not work. It can come from hitting curbs and also crack the controller arms, and idler arms
all that curb hitting can break it inside, crack the ends etc. This is just rant of mine, may be concluded that i am
drunk with out drinking. If you want i could have a drink and return to forgive me for being an idiot. Steering
can break loose from curb blunting. THe ends of the steering compression members can be loose as well.
Bearings loose, ball joints can be bad. have your dog set on the other side of the rv by putting the water bowl over there. joke.
leave it parked and act like you are driving and sleep next to the house. use a tv out side the window of a travel show.
On Mar 29, 2012, at 10:58 AM, gene barrow wrote:
>
>
> Gene,
> Thanks for the link. Good information; but as is often the case on this forum it addresses a question that wasn't asked.
>
> Changing the pump is a no brainer. The question is: how to determine whether the pump is at fault before changing it.
>
> The brass fitting on the back mentioned by Voodoolng is in place.
> Don't see how one would connect the pressure hose if the fitting were absent.
>
> The pump doesn't leak, squeal, or make any other unusual noises.
> Nothing in the steering linkages appear to be binding. But I will check the lube in the steering CV joint as suggested by Gary W.
>
> Don't know how to verify the "gain" in steering gear box as per Matt.
>
> My complaint isn't aboout slow speed turning such as while parking.
>
> The irritation is at highway speed 65-70 mph; the tightness while making minor steering corrections tend to cause over correction.
>
> Difficult to describe; I'll have to attend a rally and get some of you experts to drive my coach.
>
> If it is as good as it gets then I'll stop whining.
>
> Thanks to all for suggestions.
> --
> Gene Barrow
> Lake Almanor, Ca.
> 1976 Palm Beach
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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