Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] Onan Replacement
| [GMCnet] Onan Replacement [message #160442] |
Wed, 15 February 2012 16:08  |
Peter Garry
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Registered: July 2011
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I have a 1973 23' that had a 4KW Onan. In that I am going all 12v with some photo voltaic panels I believe I do not need to lug around a 300lb machine to perform occasional battery charging. However some sort of generator is desirable. I am looking at a Honda (costly but quiet) 1000w or 2000w machine. Could I put it on a slide out to run it? Or could it run on board (still on the closed slide out)?
Next question. Would 1000w be enough for the occasional charging?
PeterG
1973 23' Previously a Painted Desert
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| Re: [GMCnet] Onan Replacement [message #160443 is a reply to message #160442] |
Wed, 15 February 2012 16:14  |
Bob de Kruyff
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Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
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| Peter Garry wrote on Wed, 15 February 2012 15:08 |
I have a 1973 23' that had a 4KW Onan. In that I am going all 12v with some photo voltaic panels I believe I do not need to lug around a 300lb machine to perform occasional battery charging. However some sort of generator is desirable. I am looking at a Honda (costly but quiet) 1000w or 2000w machine. Could I put it on a slide out to run it? Or could it run on board (still on the closed slide out)?
Next question. Would 1000w be enough for the occasional charging?
PeterG
1973 23' Previously a Painted Desert
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Peter, although I still carry around my Onan, I use different combinations of Kipors for almost all of my recharging needs. A large part of the choice depends on the rating of your onboard converter. I have an Iota 55 amp unit and 1000w is all that's needed to max it out--anything larger won't do any good.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] Onan Replacement [message #160446 is a reply to message #160442] |
Wed, 15 February 2012 17:03 |
zhagrieb
Messages: 676
Registered: August 2009
Location: Portland Oregon
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Peter, most of these small generators have built in capability to charge batteries so no external charger is necessary. However, I know of none that can or should be used in an enclosed space as there are cooling and exhaust issues.
Glenn Giere, Portland OR, K7GAG
'73 "Moby the Motorhome" 26'
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| Re: [GMCnet] Onan Replacement [message #160457 is a reply to message #160446] |
Wed, 15 February 2012 19:51 |
Bob de Kruyff
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Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
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| Glenn Giere wrote on Wed, 15 February 2012 16:03 |
Peter, most of these small generators have built in capability to charge batteries so no external charger is necessary. However, I know of none that can or should be used in an enclosed space as there are cooling and exhaust issues.
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The built in 12V charging capacity is next to nothing compared to the 120 V output. You are much better off recharging through an onboard converter--we are talking the difference between 8 amps vs 60 or so with an onboard converter
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] Onan Replacement [message #160489 is a reply to message #160457] |
Thu, 16 February 2012 00:39 |
zhagrieb
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Registered: August 2009
Location: Portland Oregon
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I'm far from an expert on batteries and chargers but am pretty sure a 60A converter is not going to charge batteries at 60 amps. 2-4 amps is more normal and therefore within the capacity of most small generators. My understanding is the internal resistance of the battery limits current and pushing more through by increasing voltage is OK for an occasional fast charge but otherwise just shortens the life of the battery. A 12V lead acid battery wants to see 13.2 volts from the charging source and will "take" whatever current it can accommodate according to that internal resistance.
Glenn Giere, Portland OR, K7GAG
'73 "Moby the Motorhome" 26'
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| Re: [GMCnet] Onan Replacement [message #160495 is a reply to message #160489] |
Thu, 16 February 2012 03:37 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
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| Glenn Giere wrote on Thu, 16 February 2012 00:39 |
I'm far from an expert on batteries and chargers but am pretty sure a 60A converter is not going to charge batteries at 60 amps. 2-4 amps is more normal and therefore within the capacity of most small generators. My understanding is the internal resistance of the battery limits current and pushing more through by increasing voltage is OK for an occasional fast charge but otherwise just shortens the life of the battery. A 12V lead acid battery wants to see 13.2 volts from the charging source and will "take" whatever current it can accommodate according to that internal resistance.
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As the battery voltage goes up from charging the charging rate goes down. You may be able to shove 60 amps at a low battery initially, but the rate will drop quickly as the battery voltage (Reverse EMF) rises.
The normal battery charging voltage is 13.8 to 14.2 volts. BUT... if you charge it at that voltage over a long period of time you will end up over charging the battery with the excess power boiling off the electrolyte.
A Long term (days or weeks) maintenance charge can be applied to a battery to keep charged batteries topped off. That maintenance charge should be around 13.2. If you tried to charge a low battery at 13.2 volts it would take a week or more to bring it up to full charge.
I keep maintenance chargers on all of the things with batteries that I have stored in my hangar. They run at 13.2 volts and can only put out .5 amps. That is maximum that a charged battery will take at that voltage.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] Onan Replacement [message #160504 is a reply to message #160495] |
Thu, 16 February 2012 07:19 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
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Ken, I think the discussion here is how would you recharge a depleted battery bank while you are camping and want to top them back up. If I had a 110 V generator that can adequately power up my 60 amp on board converter, I would do that any day rather than wait for the generator's secondary 12V coil that can supply 8 amps max. We're not talking maintenance here.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] Onan Replacement [message #160522 is a reply to message #160505] |
Thu, 16 February 2012 10:00 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
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""Glenn,
I haven't been following this thread closely; however, I installed a 60 amp
convertor from Professional Dynamics which was connected to the house
batteries and house system via a 45 amp fuse. The fuse kept blowing and I
couldn't figger out why.
Then the bulb came on!
Hooking a convertor that put out 60 amps to a 45 amp fuse ain't too bright.
Evidently there are occasions that cause the PD to feed more than 45 amps
and poof, there goes the fuse. I have a 60 amp auto resetting C/B to
install, hopefully that will solve the problem.
Regards,
Rob M.
""
When my batteries get down to about 12.2 volts I recharge them with my Kipor through the on board convertor (55 amp in my case). I can attest by how much the genny loads down that the convertor is pumping a lot of amps into the batteries, plus the fan on the convertor goes to high speed and stays on for quite a while. I understand that gradually the charge level will taper down but if you plot amps vs time, the Iota will start at full rate and gradually taper down to a couple of amps or so. If I started at 8, it will be there for a long long time before the batteries will be fully charged. The "area under the curve" will be the same, but the time required will be dramatically different between the two approaches--that's why we have on board converters in the 40 to 60 amp range.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] Onan Replacement [message #160673 is a reply to message #160505] |
Fri, 17 February 2012 11:34 |
Richard Denney
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Registered: April 2010
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On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 8:37 AM, Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au>wrote:
> Hooking a convertor that put out 60 amps to a 45 amp fuse ain't too bright.
> Evidently there are occasions that cause the PD to feed more than 45 amps
> and poof, there goes the fuse. I have a 60 amp auto resetting C/B to
> install, hopefully that will solve the problem.
>
Rob, make sure your wiring can handle that current. The circuit breaker
should be sized for the wire, not for the load. For 60 amps, you'll need
pretty fat wire--probably 6 gauge depending on the length.
I only have 10 gauge wire from my converter to my front-located house
battery in my '73, so 40 amps is about as high as I want to go. I have a
40-amp magnetic breaker on the converter end, and then an 80-amp thermal
breaker at the firewall. The 80-amp end is close to the battery connection,
and it's there to make sure that if that wire rubs through insulation
somewhere it doesn't turn into a welding electrode with power from the
battery. I might have used a fusible link instead--that is a final disaster
protection. The wire might still get rather hot, but by then I'm not trying
to keep the insulation from melting, I'm trying to keep the coach from
catching on fire--I'm going to have to replace the wire anyway to correct
what caused the problem. The 40-amp magnetic breaker is there to protect
the converter, and to prevent routine accidental overloads from overheating
and ruining that wire's insulation.
For Peter, it is quite convenient to haul around a small portable for
keeping the batteries topped up and the like. But watch out for the loads.
Add 15% to the sum of any 120-volt loads you intend to run when the
generator is running. A 40-amp converter will require no more than 600
watts at maximum load. But a microwave usually wants 900 or 1000 watts, a
water heater needs 1500 watts, a hair dryer 1800 watts, the AC side of the
refer maybe 600 watts, and the air conditioner maybe 1500 watts when
running, after a starting burst of up to 2200 watts (though this can be
minimized with a soft-start kits on the AC). If I run the AC, water heater,
and microwave at the same time, I might well shut my 3600-watt generator
down. But it's big enough to drive the AC and the water heater. A 1000-watt
portable is only big enough to run the converter to supply 12-volt lighting
and accessories and to charge batteries. A 2000-watt unit will do just
about anything except the AC, if done one at a time. A 3000-watt unit
should run the AC, if the AC isn't really pulling a high start-up current
(which older ones might).
When I was having trouble with my generator, I was considering just yanking
it and using the area to store a portable that I could set on the ground
next to the coach and use. That works fine, and the pricey little Hondas
are marvelously quiet. But then I managed to fix my genset and find that
it's still more useful. It is not impossible to install a portable in a
permanent installation, but you have to do the work to provide the
protections. Most of the portables are splash-oiled and thus have
difficulty with oil-pressure fault detection. Few have automated chokes for
startup. Few of them have the necessary flame arresting exhaust system that
is required by the Forest Service. Few of them are designed for pumped fuel
rather than gravity-fed fuel. These can be overcome (just ask Ken
Henderson), but it takes knowhow and effort.
Rick "who realized the importance of the battery-end emergency breaker when
discovering that a PO-installed screw had gone through the insulation and
just missed shorting the wire" Denney
--
'73 230 "Jaws"
Northern Virginia
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| Re: [GMCnet] Onan Replacement [message #160680 is a reply to message #160442] |
Fri, 17 February 2012 12:26 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
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| Peter Garry wrote on Wed, 15 February 2012 15:08 |
I have a 1973 23' that had a 4KW Onan. In that I am going all 12v with some photo voltaic panels I believe I do not need to lug around a 300lb machine to perform occasional battery charging. However some sort of generator is desirable. I am looking at a Honda (costly but quiet) 1000w or 2000w machine. Could I put it on a slide out to run it? Or could it run on board (still on the closed slide out)?
Next question. Would 1000w be enough for the occasional charging?
PeterG
1973 23' Previously a Painted Desert
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Peter--as you can see, people have you running coffee makers and trying to start AC units. If you truly just want to top off your batteries ocasionally like I or Dan does--a 1000W unit is ideal.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] Onan Replacement [message #160748 is a reply to message #160673] |
Sat, 18 February 2012 00:36 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Rick,
As I have mentioned numerous times here "I am electrically challenged!
I just did a Google search for "6 gauge wire dimensions" and it produced a
table that the diameter is 0.162 inches. I assume that is the diameter of
the wire.
Here's a link to the 12VDC wiring in the Avion.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=41274
Here's a link to a photo of the house batteries in the Avion.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=30655
The black wire that comes off the positive terminal in the upper right
corner is the wire that goes to the fuse panel.
Here's a link to the installation of the converter - it's under the shelf to
the right of the fuse panel.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=36568
You can see the Charge Wizard on the C/B panel.
I'd guess that it's about 10 feet from the batteries to the fuse panel.
I'll get my Mate, John Sharpe to look at the wiring and see if it's OK.
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Denney
Rob, make sure your wiring can handle that current. The circuit breaker
should be sized for the wire, not for the load. For 60 amps, you'll need
pretty fat wire--probably 6 gauge depending on the length.
I only have 10 gauge wire from my converter to my front-located house
battery in my '73, so 40 amps is about as high as I want to go. I have a
40-amp magnetic breaker on the converter end, and then an 80-amp thermal
breaker at the firewall. The 80-amp end is close to the battery connection,
and it's there to make sure that if that wire rubs through insulation
somewhere it doesn't turn into a welding electrode with power from the
battery. I might have used a fusible link instead--that is a final disaster
protection. The wire might still get rather hot, but by then I'm not trying
to keep the insulation from melting, I'm trying to keep the coach from
catching on fire--I'm going to have to replace the wire anyway to correct
what caused the problem. The 40-amp magnetic breaker is there to protect
the converter, and to prevent routine accidental overloads from overheating
and ruining that wire's insulation.
Rick "who realized the importance of the battery-end emergency breaker when
discovering that a PO-installed screw had gone through the insulation and
just missed shorting the wire" Denney
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Onan Replacement [message #160755 is a reply to message #160504] |
Sat, 18 February 2012 02:55 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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| Bob de Kruyff wrote on Thu, 16 February 2012 07:19 |
Ken, I think the discussion here is how would you recharge a depleted battery bank while you are camping and want to top them back up. If I had a 110 V generator that can adequately power up my 60 amp on board converter, I would do that any day rather than wait for the generator's secondary 12V coil that can supply 8 amps max. We're not talking maintenance here.
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I agree 100%.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] Onan Replacement [message #231830 is a reply to message #160448] |
Sat, 30 November 2013 20:05 |
mickeysss
Messages: 1476
Registered: January 2012
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i have a 1350 air/conditioner on top, just one, as well as stock 77 palm beach, two fans on roof. tv, internet, normal stuff.
what small generator is best to get:
Kipor, honda, what is the smallest size and still make the a/c work or should it be two small ones so as to save gas
when just charging from one. What is the best design for support generator design. Dan likes Kipor, but can you double that with one
like the honda? If you need it to run the a/c, can you start the a/c with two and then change to one, any tricks and fixes to make
it work better? thank you Mick anaheim ca. 77 palm beach. Wanting to buy while the price is lowest now. what is best to do???
thank you for your info and any help best regards.
On Feb 15, 2012, at 3:08 PM, Dan Gregg wrote:
>
>
> Peter, I use a 1k Kipor. I bought a PD 45 amp so as to not overload the Kipor. But, I use a 3 stage 25 amp charger if/when I need a fast charge, plugged into the ac supplied by the Kipor. Gives me a faster charge than the PD 45. Certainly faster than the 8 amp charger on the Kipor.
> Did you get my return emails a few days back.
> Dan
> --
> Dan & Teri Gregg
> Soft White LED Lighting
>
> http://danandteri.blogspot.com/
>
>
>
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Onan Replacement [message #231836 is a reply to message #231830] |
Sat, 30 November 2013 20:23 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Mickey,
YOU need determine the amperage load YOU'RE going to need by Googling each A/C powered item YOU in YOUR coach. Once YOU do that YOU
can determine what size of generator(s) YOU will need.
YOU get the hint? ;-)
Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion-The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion-Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: Mickey Space Ship Shuttle
i have a 1350 air/conditioner on top, just one, as well as stock 77 palm beach, two fans on roof. tv, internet, normal stuff.
what small generator is best to get:
Kipor, honda, what is the smallest size and still make the a/c work or should it be two small ones so as to save gas
when just charging from one. What is the best design for support generator design. Dan likes Kipor, but can you double that with one
like the honda? If you need it to run the a/c, can you start the a/c with two and then change to one, any tricks and fixes to make
it work better? thank you Mick anaheim ca. 77 palm beach. Wanting to buy while the price is lowest now. what is best to do???
thank you for your info and any help best regards.
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Onan Replacement [message #231842 is a reply to message #160442] |
Sat, 30 November 2013 20:56 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
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Senior Member |
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Ditto on the Battery Minder. I have some very old Delcos (16 years) still working. And price is $29.99 at Northern. They are great
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: [GMCnet] Onan Replacement [message #231843 is a reply to message #231836] |
Sat, 30 November 2013 21:08 |
mickeysss
Messages: 1476
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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i can't read. I have voice tracking.
That is why i thought someone else could just say what they did, Mick. ca. 77 palm beach.
I think Dan's is 1k kipor, but will not do an a/c, but two honda 1K's connected would do it all i think but once started
has anyone have experience that one can be shut off while running and keep the gas use lower '
WHen you use the onan do you unplug the 11o outside and plug in the onan out side, - i still am not sure what that is all about.
good idea to look for myself but that someone may have experience that is fact and helping the experimentation trail.
any help would be appreciated. It is all one sale tomorrow. I would like to use that advantage. any ideas would be great.
On Nov 30, 2013, at 6:23 PM, Robert Mueller wrote:
> Mickey,
>
> YOU need determine the amperage load YOU'RE going to need by Googling each A/C powered item YOU in YOUR coach. Once YOU do that YOU
> can determine what size of generator(s) YOU will need.
>
> YOU get the hint? ;-)
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> Sydney, Australia
> AUS '75 Avion-The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
> USA '75 Avion-Double Trouble TZE365V100426
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mickey Space Ship Shuttle
>
> i have a 1350 air/conditioner on top, just one, as well as stock 77 palm beach, two fans on roof. tv, internet, normal stuff.
>
> what small generator is best to get:
>
> Kipor, honda, what is the smallest size and still make the a/c work or should it be two small ones so as to save gas
>
> when just charging from one. What is the best design for support generator design. Dan likes Kipor, but can you double that with one
>
> like the honda? If you need it to run the a/c, can you start the a/c with two and then change to one, any tricks and fixes to make
>
> it work better? thank you Mick anaheim ca. 77 palm beach. Wanting to buy while the price is lowest now. what is best to do???
>
> thank you for your info and any help best regards.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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