Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] Engine H20 temp effect on oil consumption
| [GMCnet] Engine H20 temp effect on oil consumption [message #147434] |
Sat, 22 October 2011 20:31  |
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USAussie
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G'day,
After reading Ken's note on thermostats I got to thinkin' about this and I'm wonderin' what effect, if any, engine H20 temp has on
oil consumption?
Regards,
Rob M.
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Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engine H20 temp effect on oil consumption [message #147464 is a reply to message #147438] |
Sun, 23 October 2011 04:05  |
James Hupy
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The current thinking is that the higher the coolant temp, the more efficient
the engine becomes, as long as detonation and pre ignition are kept in
check. Engines in modern cars typically get better fuel economy and are
about twice as durable as their forefathers were. I think that some of the
newer suffixes on lubrication oils have to do with their resistance to
higher operating temperatures. Because the oils run hotter, contaminants
like water are turned into steam and are more easily removed from the oils.
The downside if there is one is that NOX in exhaust gasses are greater when
the exhaust gasses are hotter, hence the 3 way catastrophic converter, which
is much more expensive to produce than the old style 1 way was. Federal
Emissions laws are going to dictate that any components of the emissions
systems, which the exhaust 3 way converter is part of, will have to be
guranteed for 100,000 miles instead of 50,000 like the present. That is why
zinc and phosphorous additives are now reduced in engine oils, (they poison
the catalysts) also a major reason why engine manufacturers have largely
gone to roller tappet camshafts as well as roller tip rocker arms. That is
why we are seeing flat tappet cam failures more often. Time marches on.
Jim Hupy
Salem, OR
78 GMC Royale 403
On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 6:41 PM, Bruce Hislop <bruce@perthcomm.com> wrote:
>
>
> Rob,
> I know the hotter an engine can operate, the more efficient it can be. I've
> read some interesting articles about engines made with ceramic parts in the
> past but the details escape me with CRS. Obviously there are issues to
> overcome otherwise we'd be driving a Royal Dolton engine by now.. :lol:
>
> I'm not sure the 15* marginal difference will make alot of difference in
> the oil consumption.
>
> I'd like to hear if there is any appreciable difference in fuel consumption
> between 180 and 195* though.
>
> --
> Bruce Hislop
> ON Canada
> 77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.
> Hubler 1 ton front end
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
> My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engine H20 temp effect on oil consumption [message #147481 is a reply to message #147434] |
Sun, 23 October 2011 09:05 |
JohnL455
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Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
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Hotter= less viscosity, more consumption
Hotter= expansion of pistons for tighter fit (though a sloppy piston doesn't matter that much as the rings do the sealing), less consumption.
This oughta start some discussion.
As far as 50K emissions warranty, I thought those days were long gone and now were were at 125K?
I like a warmer like 190 stat for cleaner opperation. The stat has nothing to do with how hot the engine gets under road load, only how cold it gets. Think about that.
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engine H20 temp effect on oil consumption [message #147490 is a reply to message #147481] |
Sun, 23 October 2011 09:26 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
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John, the 50K emissions still exists for HD vehicles, older vehicles, etc.
The Feds hold Highway funding hostage to states that are reluctant to
enforce all their regulations. The compliance picture is kinda like the red
states/blue states thing. Some States enact legislation to comply with the
feds, but do not fund enforcement of the regs, nor have emissions testing.
Some do. Same with fuel additives. Some have more corn, some don't. Some
have those infernal recovery nozzles, and some don't. Some states require
endorsements to your drivers license to ride a motorcycle, or wear a helmet
when riding one. Hard to tell. All that said, the overall trend is towards
more regulation and restrictions, not less. That is why the fuels and oils
have changed, not because they are better, but because they comply with some
federal regulations. That is the way it is, and what we have to deal with.
Wishing it were still the the good old days will not cure vapor lock.
Modifications to the fuel system that enable us to safely operate our old
equipment on modern fuels and oils is going to become the rule rather than
the exception. If we have to resort to oil additives or retrofit engines
with roller tappet cams, it is part of the price we pay for driving old
technology. Same can be said for fuel injection.
Jim Hupy
Salem, OR
78 GMC Royale 403
On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 7:05 AM, John R. Lebetski <gransport@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
> Hotter= less viscosity, more consumption
> Hotter= expansion of pistons for tighter fit (though a sloppy piston
> doesn't matter that much as the rings do the sealing), less consumption.
> This oughta start some discussion.
>
> As far as 50K emissions warranty, I thought those days were long gone and
> now were were at 125K?
>
> I like a warmer like 190 stat for cleaner opperation. The stat has nothing
> to do with how hot the engine gets under road load, only how cold it gets.
> Think about that.
> --
> John Lebetski
> Chicago, IL
> 77 Eleganza II
> _______________________________________________
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engine H20 temp effect on oil consumption [message #147538 is a reply to message #147434] |
Sun, 23 October 2011 17:12 |
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Matt Colie
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Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
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| Robert Mueller wrote on Sat, 22 October 2011 21:31 |
G'day,
After reading Ken's note on thermostats I got to thinkin' about this and I'm wonderin' what effect, if any, engine H20 temp has on oil consumption?
Regards,
Rob M.
|
Rob,
In the regimes we are discussing, No, it does not.
I should not quote data that clients paid for, but I am long past caring and those that are still can sue me...
Lube oil consumption with operation in an over temperature condition comes from two sources that we identified.
-First and worst was a significant increase in blow-by brought on by increased bore distortion. (When those holes aren't round nobody's rings will fit.) Bore distortion is a primary factor in oil consumption. (This is why boring and honing with plates works so well.)
-Second is the expansion of the intake valve guide to the point that the stem seal can no longer perform as required. The exhaust valve seal is less an issue as it has positive pressure.
There, now finish you coffee and get on with the day. I'm going to go have some home-made pizza for dinner.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engine H20 temp effect on oil consumption [message #147541 is a reply to message #147434] |
Sun, 23 October 2011 17:34 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
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Are you saying the new HD diesels like in the new HD truck (Peterbilt) we just got requiring Diesel exhaust fluid (DEF) only have to comply for the first 50K miles?on a truck that should go 300k before rebuild?
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engine H20 temp effect on oil consumption [message #147542 is a reply to message #147538] |
Sun, 23 October 2011 17:34 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Matt,
Thanks, I was hoping you would chime in.
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: Matt Colie
Rob,
In the regimes we are discussing, No, it does not.
I should not quote data that clients paid for, but I am long past caring and those that are still can sue me...
Lube oil consumption with operation in an over temperature condition comes from two sources that we identified.
-First and worst was a significant increase in blow-by brought on by increased bore distortion. (When those holes aren't round
nobody's rings will fit.) Bore distortion is a primary factor in oil consumption. (This is why boring and honing with plates works
so well.)
-Second is the expansion of the intake valve guide to the point that the stem seal can no longer perform as required. The exhaust
valve seal is less an issue as it has positive pressure.
There, now finish you coffee and get on with the day. I'm going to go have some home-made pizza for dinner.
Matt
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engine H20 temp effect on oil consumption [message #147565 is a reply to message #147481] |
Sun, 23 October 2011 18:53 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
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Yeh it will.
I believe the difference in materials (aluminum vs iron) will lead to pistons fitting tighter. If both the pistons and the bore were iron, the clearance would increase with heat - the hole will grow more than the slug in it. Which is why we heat things which are an interference fit at room or operationg temp.
--johnny
'76 transmiode - Norris
'76 Palm Beach
________________________________
From: John R. Lebetski <gransport@aol.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 10:05 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Engine H20 temp effect on oil consumption
Hotter= less viscosity, more consumption
Hotter= expansion of pistons for tighter fit (though a sloppy piston doesn't matter that much as the rings do the sealing), less consumption.
This oughta start some discussion.
As far as 50K emissions warranty, I thought those days were long gone and now were were at 125K?
I like a warmer like 190 stat for cleaner opperation. The stat has nothing to do with how hot the engine gets under road load, only how cold it gets. Think about that.
--
John Lebetski
Chicago, IL
77 Eleganza II
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Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engine H20 temp effect on oil consumption [message #147647 is a reply to message #147565] |
Mon, 24 October 2011 09:12 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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| Johnny Bridges wrote on Sun, 23 October 2011 19:53 |
Yeh it will.
I believe the difference in materials (aluminum vs iron) will lead to pistons fitting tighter. If both the pistons and the bore were iron, the clearance would increase with heat - the hole will grow more than the slug in it. Which is why we heat things which are an interference fit at room or operating temp.
--johnny
|
Johnny,
You are laboring under serveal very common preconceived misconceptions.
The parts of an engine under load are not even nearly the same temperatures. So, even if every part of the engine were iron poured from the same ladle, the thermal expansion each part would exhibit would still be different.
The reason modern engines are assembled with little or even no measured piston to wall is because they can do this and it is to the manufacture's advantage as it makes for a very quite engine. What allows this is three things:
1- Is piston designs including the shirt (crosshead) profile - a new cold piston is not even close to round. If you saw the diagrams we used to define a piston shape as a deviation from the theoretic true piston, you would be astounded, both how it got there and that it can be measured (and then certified and validiated). This is required because the crown is hotter than the lower parts, so it has to start out smaller. The crosshead (skirt and thrust bearing) has to start out tight and then accommodate thermal expansion that would make it be a 0.003~5 interference in the cylinder bore at operating temperature.
2- Is piston material alloys are now so well formulated and process controlled that the effects of temperature on the material performance are completely predictable. This includes the required flexibility to perform the magic as described above.
3- Is the development of a scuff control coating (largely MoS2) that is applied to the piston prior to assembly. This allows the very tight fit to survive the initial cold engine starts without damage to the relatively soft skirt bearing (crosshead) area.
Can you tell I did this at one time?
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engine H20 temp effect on oil consumption [message #147654 is a reply to message #147647] |
Mon, 24 October 2011 10:14 |
 |
WD0AFQ
Messages: 7111
Registered: November 2004
Location: Dexter, Mo.
Karma: 207
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| Matt Colie wrote on Mon, 24 October 2011 09:12 |
| Johnny Bridges wrote on Sun, 23 October 2011 19:53 |
Yeh it will.
I believe the difference in materials (aluminum vs iron) will lead to pistons fitting tighter. If both the pistons and the bore were iron, the clearance would increase with heat - the hole will grow more than the slug in it. Which is why we heat things which are an interference fit at room or operating temp.
--johnny
|
Johnny,
You are laboring under serveal very common preconceived misconceptions.
The parts of an engine under load are not even nearly the same temperatures. So, even if every part of the engine were iron poured from the same ladle, the thermal expansion each part would exhibit would still be different.
The reason modern engines are assembled with little or even no measured piston to wall is because they can do this and it is to the manufacture's advantage as it makes for a very quite engine. What allows this is three things:
1- Is piston designs including the shirt (crosshead) profile - a new cold piston is not even close to round. If you saw the diagrams we used to define a piston shape as a deviation from the theoretic true piston, you would be astounded, both how it got there and that it can be measured (and then certified and validiated). This is required because the crown is hotter than the lower parts, so it has to start out smaller. The crosshead (skirt and thrust bearing) has to start out tight and then accommodate thermal expansion that would make it be a 0.003~5 interference in the cylinder bore at operating temperature.
2- Is piston material alloys are now so well formulated and process controlled that the effects of temperature on the material performance are completely predictable. This includes the required flexibility to perform the magic as described above.
3- Is the development of a scuff control coating (largely MoS2) that is applied to the piston prior to assembly. This allows the very tight fit to survive the initial cold engine starts without damage to the relatively soft skirt bearing (crosshead) area.
Can you tell I did this at one time?
Matt
|
Thanks Matt. I always read your notes on these topics, even when they are over my head. I do appreciate you sharing what you know with this group.
Dan
3 In Stainless Exhaust Headers
One Ton All Discs/Reaction Arm
355 FD/Quad Bag/Alum Radiator Manny Tran/New eng.
Holley EFI/10 Tire Air Monitoring System
Solarized Coach/Upgraded Windows
Satelite TV/On Demand Hot Water/3Way Refer
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engine H20 temp effect on oil consumption [message #147662 is a reply to message #147654] |
Mon, 24 October 2011 11:55 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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| WD0AFQ wrote on Mon, 24 October 2011 11:14 |
Thanks Matt. I always read your notes on these topics, even when they are over my head. I do appreciate you sharing what you know with this group.
Dan
|
Dan,
Thank you,
If there is EVER something you don't understand, but might like to, please do you best to frame a question. If you can't understand what I wrote, I am completely certain that you are not alone in that.
There is a quote from Albert Einstein that I love.
"You do not really understand something unless you can explain it to your grandmother."
It might be difficult for me to figure out what has to be filled in so that the explanation that would work for you, but I would like to have the opportunity to try. I can't do that without your help.
Again,
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engine H20 temp effect on oil consumption [message #147708 is a reply to message #147647] |
Mon, 24 October 2011 18:06 |
fred v
Messages: 999
Registered: April 2006
Location: pensacola, fl.
Karma: 0
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| Matt Colie wrote on Mon, 24 October 2011 09:12 |
You are laboring under serveal very common preconceived misconceptions.
The parts of an engine under load are not even nearly the same temperatures. So, even if every part of the engine were iron poured from the same ladle, the thermal expansion each part would exhibit would still be different.
The reason modern engines are assembled with little or even no measured piston to wall is because they can do this and it is to the manufacture's advantage as it makes for a very quite engine.
Matt
|
Matt, i remember that in the past the car co. would grade pistons and bores for the correct piston fit. is that not done now? how about when rebuilding an engine, should the bores be made to fit each piston?
thanks for your input,
Fred V
'77 Royale RB 455
P'cola, Fl
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engine H20 temp effect on oil consumption [message #147719 is a reply to message #147708] |
Mon, 24 October 2011 19:12 |
|
Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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| fred v wrote on Mon, 24 October 2011 19:06 |
Matt, I remember that in the past the car co. would grade pistons and bores for the correct piston fit. is that not done now? how about when rebuilding an engine, should the bores be made to fit each piston?
thanks for your input,
|
Fred,
Your memory is good, but that is now plant specific. Both Flint and St. Cathrines (GMSB) used to have 8 (iirc) pistons available to get a desired fit. Some newer plants have only one choice. Even most of the older plants have been modernized enough to only have three.
If I were getting an engine bored, I would measure the pistons my self and give the shop the size holes I want and require that he use deck plates and hone the last ~0.002.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engine H20 temp effect on oil consumption [message #147720 is a reply to message #147708] |
Mon, 24 October 2011 19:18 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Fred,
When I was looking for a machine shop in Houston to rebuild the Caddy 500 I asked the one that had been recommended to me by a local
hot rodder if they needed the pistons to bore the engine. The shop owner responded "YES, we measure them individually and then bore
the cylinders to match." Unfortunately they did not have a torque plate.
After I had the block machined I asked the GMCnet if anybody knew if GM used torque plates to bore engines back in the day and was
told nope. JimK noted that he had one for his Caddy 500 and would have loaned it to me.
PLEASE don't get me wrong, I agree using torque plates is a good idea. Running hot water through the engine while you bore it as
NASCAR builders do is even better, but a bit over the top for a GMC. ;-)
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: fred veenschoten
Matt, i remember that in the past the car co. would grade pistons and bores for the correct piston fit. is that not done now? how
about when rebuilding an engine, should the bores be made to fit each piston?
thanks for your input,
--
Fred
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engine H20 temp effect on oil consumption [message #147805 is a reply to message #147647] |
Tue, 25 October 2011 19:38 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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I has learnt. Yet again :):)
--johnny
________________________________
From: Matt Colie <matt7323tze@gmail.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 10:12 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Engine H20 temp effect on oil consumption
Johnny Bridges wrote on Sun, 23 October 2011 19:53
> Yeh it will.
> I believe the difference in materials (aluminum vs iron) will lead to pistons fitting tighter. If both the pistons and the bore were iron, the clearance would increase with heat - the hole will grow more than the slug in it. Which is why we heat things which are an interference fit at room or operating temp.
>
> --johnny
Johnny,
You are laboring under serveal very common preconceived misconceptions.
The parts of an engine under load are not even nearly the same temperatures. So, even if every part of the engine were iron poured from the same ladle, the thermal expansion each part would exhibit would still be different.
The reason modern engines are assembled with little or even no measured piston to wall is because they can do this and it is to the manufacture's advantage as it makes for a very quite engine. What allows this is three things:
1- Is piston designs including the shirt (crosshead) profile - a new cold piston is not even close to round. If you saw the diagrams we used to define a piston shape as a deviation from the theoretic true piston, you would be astounded, both how it got there and that it can be measured (and then certified and validiated). This is required because the crown is hotter than the lower parts, so it has to start out smaller. The crosshead (skirt and thrust bearing) has to start out tight and then accommodate thermal expansion that would make it be a 0.003~5 interference in the cylinder bore at operating temperature.
2- Is piston material alloys are now so well formulated and process controlled that the effects of temperature on the material performance are completely predictable. This includes the required flexibility to perform the magic as described above.
3- Is the development of a scuff control coating (largely MoS2) that is applied to the piston prior to assembly. This allows the very tight fit to survive the initial cold engine starts without damage to the relatively soft skirt bearing (crosshead) area.
Can you tell I did this at one time?
Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie
'73 Glacier 23 Chaumiere (say show-me-air) Just about as stock as you will find
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engine H20 temp effect on oil consumption [message #147815 is a reply to message #147811] |
Tue, 25 October 2011 21:26 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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There's a wealth of knowledge here, in a lot of very interesting areas, not just GMCs. Worth the time spent. And if there's interest in high powered RF systems, I'm here :):)
Apropos of which, if any of the hams here want to cook up a repeater, I just took the driver out of an FM radio, it ought to make 250 - 300Watts on two meters. Wants about 2KV to run, a pair of 4CX250s in parallel. We measure duty cycle (key down) in years. Anyone's interested, lemme know.
--johnny
76 23' Transmode Norris
'76 Palm Beach
________________________________
From: Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 9:31 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Engine H20 temp effect on oil consumption
Johnny,
You can learn one hell of a lot from Matt. When it comes to engines and testing, he's been there done that!
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: Johnny Bridges
I has learnt. Yet again :):)
--johnny
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Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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