Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] Surge Protector
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| Re: [GMCnet] Surge Protector [message #145871 is a reply to message #145868] |
Fri, 07 October 2011 20:43   |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Byron,
Made sense to me then you go ahead and say "He . . had on suspenders with his belt!" That's ME! ;-)
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: Byron Songer
I'm voting for "waste".
Places shouldn't be in business if there is a mis-wire condition, reverse
polarity (due to sub-standard work), or dangerous current on ground wire
(which means someone plowed through the underground wire).
I've only seen one in use by a human. He, by the way, also had on suspenders
with his belt.
Byron
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Surge Protector [message #145878 is a reply to message #145868] |
Fri, 07 October 2011 21:31 |
midlf
Messages: 2212
Registered: July 2007
Location: SE Wisc. (Palmyra)
Karma: 1
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| Byron Songer wrote on Fri, 07 October 2011 20:21 |
I've only seen one in use by a human. He, by the way, also had on suspenders
with his belt.
--
Byron Songer
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Be careful what you say Byron! You will all too soon get to be the age when this is a necessity.
Steve Southworth
1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
Palmyra WI
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| Re: [GMCnet] Surge Protector [message #145891 is a reply to message #145868] |
Sat, 08 October 2011 00:46 |
Andrew
Messages: 213
Registered: April 2011
Location: Connecticut
Karma: 0
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| Byron Songer wrote on Fri, 07 October 2011 21:21 |
Places shouldn't be in business if there is a mis-wire condition, reverse
polarity (due to sub-standard work), or dangerous current on ground wire
(which means someone plowed through the underground wire).
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True enough, but the indicators for those conditions are just the $5 gewgaw blinkenlight add on features so that the lumpen can "know it's working".
The product's real job is protection from surges and under/overvoltage conditions, which can happen anywhere and do cause damage to some sensitive power supplies.
However, most of the load on the AC circuits in the coach aren't particularly sensitive, and/or aren't expensive to replace. The devices that are, e.g. computer, flat screen tv, etc, can have their own perfectly adequate $30 surge protector. Don't pay less, though.
The original buzzbox converter/charger was built like a tank, but I don't know for sure that I'd trust it not to do something scary in the face of a lightning hit to the power lines, or a serious overvoltage condition today -- it's dried out and dusty in there. I think I recall seeing a sprinkling of toroids and MOVs in the Progresive Dynamics replacement, so it should have at least a measure of protection for itself.
1973 Sequoia 260 (since 2011)
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| Re: [GMCnet] Surge Protector [message #145916 is a reply to message #145871] |
Sat, 08 October 2011 10:24 |
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I failed to say they were holding up his underwear. Elastic works for me.
Byron
-----Original Message-----
From: Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au>
Reply-To: <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 12:43:07 +1100
To: <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Surge Protector
>Byron,
>
>Made sense to me then you go ahead and say "He . . had on suspenders with
>his belt!" That's ME! ;-)
>
>Regards,
>Rob M.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Byron Songer
>
>I'm voting for "waste".
>
>Places shouldn't be in business if there is a mis-wire condition, reverse
>polarity (due to sub-standard work), or dangerous current on ground wire
>(which means someone plowed through the underground wire).
>
>I've only seen one in use by a human. He, by the way, also had on
>suspenders
>with his belt.
>
>Byron
>
>_______________________________________________
>GMCnet mailing list
>Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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--
Byron Songer
Full-timing to enjoy the USA
Former owner but still an admirer
GMC paint schemes at -
http://www.songerconsulting.net
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| Re: [GMCnet] Surge Protector [message #145919 is a reply to message #145891] |
Sat, 08 October 2011 11:21 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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Or buy a $5 power strip, and solder MOVs (3) in it at about $1 each. Save 20 bux.
--johnny
________________________________
From: Andrew <reynhout@quesera.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Saturday, October 8, 2011 1:46 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Surge Protector
Byron Songer wrote on Fri, 07 October 2011 21:21
> Places shouldn't be in business if there is a mis-wire condition, reverse
> polarity (due to sub-standard work), or dangerous current on ground wire
> (which means someone plowed through the underground wire).
True enough, but the indicators for those conditions are just the $5 gewgaw blinkenlight add on features so that the lumpen can "know it's working".
The product's real job is protection from surges and under/overvoltage conditions, which can happen anywhere and do cause damage to some sensitive power supplies.
However, most of the load on the AC circuits in the coach aren't particularly sensitive, and/or aren't expensive to replace. The devices that are, e.g. computer, flat screen tv, etc, can have their own perfectly adequate $30 surge protector. Don't pay less, though.
The original buzzbox converter/charger was built like a tank, but I don't know for sure that I'd trust it not to do something scary in the face of a lightning hit to the power lines, or a serious overvoltage condition today -- it's dried out and dusty in there. I think I recall seeing a sprinkling of toroids and MOVs in the Progresive Dynamics replacement, so it should have at least a measure of protection for itself.
--
1973 Sequoia 260 (since 2011)
In-transit, westward
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Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] Surge Protector [message #145943 is a reply to message #145861] |
Sat, 08 October 2011 20:19 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
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Senior Member |
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They sure are expensive. That money buys a nice Fluke meter you can actually use for oh say about 100 other purposes. I guess if there is a brown out it might save your AC roof top compressor or refer. As far a lighting strikes.... It all depends on the directness of the hit. If the lighting has come 5 miles allready through the sky to get to you, that aint't gonna stop it. My electrical supplier /owner/ friend put a state of the art surge protection system in his mega house and his service entrance took a direct lighting hit. It launched the whole surge system and all the let all the smoke out of the electronics in the entire casa. One more thing. That unit WILL cause a slight voltage drop at your coach. Even if it was just piece of dumb 6 ga cable in the dogbone, you are adding 2 more connectors in line. Those Will get warm and that's voltage drop. Probably 2 or 3 volts with both Rooftops running, but if voltage is low allready, that's exatly when you don't want more drop.
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: [GMCnet] Surge Protector [message #145950 is a reply to message #145891] |
Sat, 08 October 2011 22:29 |
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The Buzzbox may be a tank but it did not stand up to 380 volts pumped into my GMC at Quartzsite last year. It filled the coach with smoke. The only damage to the coach was the buzzbox!
John
[quote title=Andrew wrote on Fri, 07 October 2011 22:46]| Byron Songer wrote on Fri, 07 October 2011 21:21 |
The original buzzbox converter/charger was built like a tank,
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John Ruff
Chandler, AZ
1975 Eleganza
WA3RIG
If I use ZDDP in a new car - will the tappets go flat?
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| Re: [GMCnet] Surge Protector [message #145967 is a reply to message #145943] |
Sun, 09 October 2011 08:38 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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What the supressor is good at is removing spikes from the line before they trash the electronics downstream. As John points out, you >aren't< going to kill a lightning hit. We stick things hundreds of feet up in the air in an area whioch has a lot of thunderstorms. I see very few failures from hits. The bulk of them are when the stroke hits the antenna directly and burns a hole in it, so that it no longer has pressure integrity.
We keep damage down by bonding everything together and grounding it properly. In this manner, when a bolt hits, everything rises and falls together. As long as there's no voltage differential across the equipment no damage is done even though the entire system may well get into thousands of volta for an instant. The no - no is allowing the equipment - or your coach - become a series part of the path from hit to ground,. Plugged into a power outlet at a park which is properly grounded, you shouldn't have a problem.
If you use surge protectors (a Good Idea), consider also taking a couple of turns of the power cable around a piece of pipe or something, to sort of form a coil with it. It takes the MOV a finite amount of time to begin conducting when its threshold is exceeded. The coil will to a degree integrate a fast rising spike and take much of the energy out of what deos pass the MOV. Also, MOVs lose their effectiveness over time and conduction. I replace them every three or four years as a matter of maintenance. Unless, as sometimes happens, I find two stubs of wire and a burn mark where the MOV used to be.
--johnny
________________________________
From: John R. Lebetski <gransport@aol.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Saturday, October 8, 2011 9:19 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Surge Protector
They sure are expensive. That money buys a nice Fluke meter you can actually use for oh say about 100 other purposes. I guess if there is a brown out it might save your AC roof top compressor or refer. As far a lighting strikes.... It all depends on the directness of the hit. If the lighting has come 5 miles allready through the sky to get to you, that aint't gonna stop it. My electrical supplier /owner/ friend put a state of the art surge protection system in his mega house and his service entrance took a direct lighting hit. It launched the whole surge system and all the let all the smoke out of the electronics in the entire casa. One more thing. That unit WILL cause a slight voltage drop at your coach. Even if it was just piece of dumb 6 ga cable in the dogbone, you are adding 2 more connectors in line. Those Will get warm and that's voltage drop. Probably 2 or 3 volts with both Rooftops running, but if voltage is low allready, that's
exatly when you don't want mo
re drop.
--
John Lebetski
Chicago, IL
77 Eleganza II
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Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] Surge Protector [message #145968 is a reply to message #145950] |
Sun, 09 October 2011 08:43 |
jknezek
Messages: 1057
Registered: December 2007
Karma: 5
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Senior Member |
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[quote title=John Ruff wrote on Sat, 08 October 2011 23:29]The Buzzbox may be a tank but it did not stand up to 380 volts pumped into my GMC at Quartzsite last year. It filled the coach with smoke. The only damage to the coach was the buzzbox!
John
| Andrew wrote on Fri, 07 October 2011 22:46 |
| Byron Songer wrote on Fri, 07 October 2011 21:21 |
The original buzzbox converter/charger was built like a tank,
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Given that the only thing that was damaged was the buzzbox, I'd say it did its job perfectly...
Thanks,
Jeremy Knezek
1976 Glenbrook
Birmingham, AL
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| Re: [GMCnet] Surge Protector [message #146121 is a reply to message #145967] |
Mon, 10 October 2011 22:08 |
Andrew
Messages: 213
Registered: April 2011
Location: Connecticut
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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| Johnny Bridges wrote on Sun, 09 October 2011 09:38 |
What the supressor is good at is removing spikes from the line before they trash the electronics downstream. As John points out, you >aren't< going to kill a lightning hit. We stick things hundreds of feet up in the air in an area whioch has a lot of thunderstorms. I see very few failures from hits. The bulk of them are when the stroke hits the antenna directly and burns a hole in it, so that it no longer has pressure integrity.
|
A surge protector won't help you in the case of a direct or very close hit, but it can filter transients from a strike down the line.
Also, you're describing an engineered facility with proper lightning suppression (really lightning attraction and current path routing, but lightning *damage* suppression). I've seen some pretty sketchy power situations at campgrounds, and I've definitely never camped at a campground where the electrical facilities were designed the way we used to do them when building out transmitter sites.
| Quote: |
If you use surge protectors (a Good Idea), consider also taking a couple of turns of the power cable around a piece of pipe or something, to sort of form a coil with it. It takes the MOV a finite amount of time to begin conducting when its threshold is exceeded. The coil will to a degree integrate a fast rising spike and take much of the energy out of what deos pass the MOV.
|
I've wondered about this. Will the low turn count toroid actually help? Given that you're wrapping hot, neutral, and ground all together around a hollow ferrous core, how much will it smooth the curve? I used to work for a place that had all the test equipment to simulate this sort of event (as well as other line disturbances, they made UPSes), but I never thought to try at the time.
| Quote: |
Also, MOVs lose their effectiveness over time and conduction. I replace them every three or four years as a matter of maintenance. Unless, as sometimes happens, I find two stubs of wire and a burn mark where the MOV used to be.
|
This is great advice. MOVs and capacitors won't work after you let the smoke out.  MOVs and electrolytics in power supplies age out, so it pays to stay ahead of them.
1973 Sequoia 260 (since 2011)
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| Re: [GMCnet] Surge Protector [message #146131 is a reply to message #146121] |
Tue, 11 October 2011 06:59 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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Do the turns help? In a word, yes. What you want to do is integrate the pulse just a bit - tilt the leading edge, if you will. The idea is to slow the rise enough to give the MOV or arc gap, or whatever quenching device you're using time to act. The commercial stuff we use has a coaxial choke forall three phases on the input. The trick is to integrate the rise without adding so much inductance you garbage up the power factor. If you notice, most AM towers will use a turn or two of the feed for the same reason.
There is some excellent information here
http://70.40.210.60/about-lec/biographies/roy-b-carpenter.html
Mr. Carpenter was one of the original gurus of protection, mucgh of which was reputedly done to keep EMP out of communications equipment. (There was a time, back in The Day, if you said 'EMP', we were supposed to report you to the commander. They were touchy about it in the cold war years).
Check out the LRC home page and the libraries.
--johnny
________________________________
From: Andrew <reynhout@quesera.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 11:08 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Surge Protector
Johnny Bridges wrote on Sun, 09 October 2011 09:38
> What the supressor is good at is removing spikes from the line before they trash the electronics downstream. As John points out, you >aren't< going to kill a lightning hit. We stick things hundreds of feet up in the air in an area whioch has a lot of thunderstorms. I see very few failures from hits. The bulk of them are when the stroke hits the antenna directly and burns a hole in it, so that it no longer has pressure integrity.
A surge protector won't help you in the case of a direct or very close hit, but it can filter transients from a strike down the line.
Also, you're describing an engineered facility with proper lightning suppression (really lightning attraction and current path routing, but lightning *damage* suppression). I've seen some pretty sketchy power situations at campgrounds, and I've definitely never camped at a campground where the electrical facilities were designed the way we used to do them when building out transmitter sites.
Quote:
>
> If you use surge protectors (a Good Idea), consider also taking a couple of turns of the power cable around a piece of pipe or something, to sort of form a coil with it. It takes the MOV a finite amount of time to begin conducting when its threshold is exceeded. The coil will to a degree integrate a fast rising spike and take much of the energy out of what deos pass the MOV.
I've wondered about this. Will the low turn count toroid actually help? Given that you're wrapping hot, neutral, and ground all together around a hollow ferrous core, how much will it smooth the curve? I used to work for a place that had all the test equipment to simulate this sort of event (as well as other line disturbances, they made UPSes), but I never thought to try at the time.
Quote:
> Also, MOVs lose their effectiveness over time and conduction. I replace them every three or four years as a matter of maintenance. Unless, as sometimes happens, I find two stubs of wire and a burn mark where the MOV used to be.
This is great advice. MOVs and capacitors won't work after you let the smoke out. :) MOVs and electrolytics in power supplies age out, so it pays to stay ahead of them.
--
1973 Sequoia 260 (since 2011)
In-transit, westward
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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