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Engine break in question for Matt Colie [message #143432]

Wed, 14 September 2011 21:42

idrob

Messages: 645
Registered: January 2005
Location: Central Idaho

Karma: 0

Senior Member

This is a question for Matt Colie and anyone else who wishes to comment.

My new Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 L Hemi V8 will be here next week. I know there are three schools of thought on break in of brand new engines, the old "slow and careful, treat it gentle for a long time", the "run it hard and like you stole it after a first few miles and show it no mercy", and the general owners manual statements that say "drive it with some moderation for a couple of hundred miles and then just drive it like you would normally". BTW, the primary use of the rig will be as a tow vehicle, for relatively small trailers, around 4000# max.

Matt, I know in one of your former lives you did lots of engine testing, some to failure. What would you personally do in the first 1 to 2 thousand miles on this engine?

Second, most cars now just have the first engine oil change at the normal 5000 to 7000 mile point, no early changes required or recommended. What is your opinion on that as general policy?

I appreciate your answers, and anyone else who cares to chime in, just fine, do it.

Rob Allen
former owner of '76 x-PB

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Re: [GMCnet] Engine break in question for Matt Colie [message #143440 is a reply to message #143432]

Wed, 14 September 2011 22:01

9736r

Messages: 21
Registered: February 2004

Karma: 0

Junior Member

Hi ,

I wouldn't use cruise control for the first 500 miles or so .... I doubt
there is any normal use that will cause harm . Today's engines are much less
prone to develop bad tendencies . An early oil change is something I always
do ... theory being , to flush any break-in goop . Likely to be a waste of $
, but I feel better :>)

J.D.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rob Allen" <profmail@wildblue.net>
To: <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 7:42 PM
Subject: [GMCnet] Engine break in question for Matt Colie

>
>
> This is a question for Matt Colie and anyone else who wishes to comment.
>
> My new Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 L Hemi V8 will be here next week. I know
> there are three schools of thought on break in of brand new engines, the
> old "slow and careful, treat it gentle for a long time", the "run it hard
> and like you stole it after a first few miles and show it no mercy", and
> the general owners manual statements that say "drive it with some
> moderation for a couple of hundred miles and then just drive it like you
> would normally". BTW, the primary use of the rig will be as a tow
> vehicle, for relatively small trailers, around 4000# max.
>
> Matt, I know in one of your former lives you did lots of engine testing,
> some to failure. What would you personally do in the first 1 to 2
> thousand miles on this engine?
>
> Second, most cars now just have the first engine oil change at the normal
> 5000 to 7000 mile point, no early changes required or recommended. What
> is your opinion on that as general policy?
>
> I appreciate your answers, and anyone else who cares to chime in, just
> fine, do it.
> --
> Rob Allen
> former owner of '76 x-PB
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist

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Re: Engine break in question for Matt Colie [message #143444 is a reply to message #143432]

Wed, 14 September 2011 22:12

Matt Colie

Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan

Karma: 7

Senior Member

idrob wrote on Wed, 14 September 2011 22:42

Rob,

If you saw what we did to that engine in the lab, it would curl your hair... and they live through a 2000 hour transmission test. That does not make it best practice or recommended handling.

If it were my engine and I planned to keep it forever, I would never be hard the engine while it is cold.

I know what it says about the first oil change, but that is not what I would do. (And, not even what I did with my lease cars when I worked for C and DCX.) It is also not what we did in the durability and validation tests. Oil and filters are just too inexpensive to do that to a nice engine. There is always a lot of loose metal in a new engine, best get it out.

Break-in on a modern engine is actually complete in about 5~10 hours depending on the engine (most passcar are close to five). You may even feel the engine loosen up at about five (or so) hours. You will notice the loosen up most in the start up and idle quality (tougher to feel now with the new engine controls). That would be a good time to put as much load on the engine as you can do and stay out of jail. That will make sure everything is where it belongs and is well seated. Just after that is a good time for an oil and filter.

So, take it out and don't abuse it (remember never cold) for the first bit, then drive it like you know what it can do and don't have to prove it, but then take it for a good blast after it has loosened up.

I realize that this all requires a lot of "seat of the pants" evaluation, but without a fully instrumented test stand, you just can't do much better than working your very own central processor.

I hope I answered your questions.

Matt

Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit

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Re: [GMCnet] Engine break in question for Matt Colie [message #143445 is a reply to message #143432]

Wed, 14 September 2011 22:09

Gary Worobec

Messages: 867
Registered: May 2005

Karma: -1

Senior Member

Hi,
I have a 2005 Grand Cherokee with the 5.7 Hemi. Got it new in 2005. Changed
the oil at 1500 miles to Mobil 1 Synthetic and after that every 6,000 miles.
Car has 124,000 on it now and runs good as new. No special break in, just
normal everyday driving right from the start. I don;t think I'd tow until
maybe 2500 miles or so.

Thanks

Gary and Joanne Worobec
1973 GMC Glacier
Anza, CA

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rob Allen" <profmail@wildblue.net>
To: <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 7:42 PM
Subject: [GMCnet] Engine break in question for Matt Colie

>
>
> This is a question for Matt Colie and anyone else who wishes to comment.
>
> My new Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 L Hemi V8 will be here next week. I know
> there are three schools of thought on break in of brand new engines, the
> old "slow and careful, treat it gentle for a long time", the "run it hard
> and like you stole it after a first few miles and show it no mercy", and
> the general owners manual statements that say "drive it with some
> moderation for a couple of hundred miles and then just drive it like you
> would normally". BTW, the primary use of the rig will be as a tow
> vehicle, for relatively small trailers, around 4000# max.
>
> Matt, I know in one of your former lives you did lots of engine testing,
> some to failure. What would you personally do in the first 1 to 2
> thousand miles on this engine?
>
> Second, most cars now just have the first engine oil change at the normal
> 5000 to 7000 mile point, no early changes required or recommended. What
> is your opinion on that as general policy?
>
> I appreciate your answers, and anyone else who cares to chime in, just
> fine, do it.
> --
> Rob Allen
> former owner of '76 x-PB
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist

_______________________________________________
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Re: Engine break in question for Matt Colie [message #143446 is a reply to message #143444]

Wed, 14 September 2011 22:31

idrob

Messages: 645
Registered: January 2005
Location: Central Idaho

Karma: 0

Senior Member

Matt,

Many thanks. Your answer was perfect and I can do it that way. After about a million and a half miles (honest) of driving, my pants seat is fairly well calibrated. And what you say fits in with a lot of other reading I have done on the subject. I was unsure about oil change though. That is excellent information.

Rob Allen
former owner of '76 x-PB

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Re: [GMCnet] Engine break in question for Matt Colie [message #143462 is a reply to message #143432]

Thu, 15 September 2011 06:42

Steven Ferguson

Messages: 3447
Registered: May 2006

Karma: 0

Senior Member

Rob,
First, it is a roller motor so concerns about the camshaft break-in
procedure are none. Second, it has been driven before you rec'd it by folks
in a hurry to get to the next car so matter what you do, you can't undo
anything they may have done. Drive it without towing for the first 5K
miles. This is primarily for the differential break in. Some backing up and
stopping will help with the brakes.

On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 7:42 PM, Rob Allen <profmail@wildblue.net> wrote:

>
>
> This is a question for Matt Colie and anyone else who wishes to comment.
>
> My new Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 L Hemi V8 will be here next week. I know
> there are three schools of thought on break in of brand new engines, the old
> "slow and careful, treat it gentle for a long time", the "run it hard and
> like you stole it after a first few miles and show it no mercy", and the
> general owners manual statements that say "drive it with some moderation for
> a couple of hundred miles and then just drive it like you would normally".
> BTW, the primary use of the rig will be as a tow vehicle, for relatively
> small trailers, around 4000# max.
>
> Matt, I know in one of your former lives you did lots of engine testing,
> some to failure. What would you personally do in the first 1 to 2 thousand
> miles on this engine?
>
> Second, most cars now just have the first engine oil change at the normal
> 5000 to 7000 mile point, no early changes required or recommended. What is
> your opinion on that as general policy?
>
> I appreciate your answers, and anyone else who cares to chime in, just
> fine, do it.
> --
> Rob Allen
> former owner of '76 x-PB
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>

--
Steve Ferguson
Sierra Vista, AZ
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Re: [GMCnet] Engine break in question for Matt Colie [message #143463 is a reply to message #143444]

Thu, 15 September 2011 06:43

Steven Ferguson

Messages: 3447
Registered: May 2006

Karma: 0

Senior Member

I sure hear you on the oil change Matt. I dumped the oil in my new Colorado
at 3,000 miles and Blackstone attached a note to my analysis sheet saying
that it was a good thing that I changed it when I did.

On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 8:12 PM, Matt Colie <matt7323tze@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> idrob wrote on Wed, 14 September 2011 22:42
> > This is a question for Matt Colie and anyone else who wishes to comment.
> >
> > My new Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 L Hemi V8 will be here next week. I know
> there are three schools of thought on break in of brand new engines, the old
> "slow and careful, treat it gentle for a long time", the "run it hard and
> like you stole it after a first few miles and show it no mercy", and the
> general owners manual statements that say "drive it with some moderation for
> a couple of hundred miles and then just drive it like you would normally".
> BTW, the primary use of the rig will be as a tow vehicle, for relatively
> small trailers, around 4000# max.
> >
> > Matt, I know in one of your former lives you did lots of engine testing,
> some to failure. What would you personally do in the first 1 to 2 thousand
> miles on this engine?
> >
> > Second, most cars now just have the first engine oil change at the normal
> 5000 to 7000 mile point, no early changes required or recommended. What is
> your opinion on that as general policy?
> >
> > I appreciate your answers, and anyone else who cares to chime in, just
> fine, do it.
>
> Rob,
>
> If you saw what we did to that engine in the lab, it would curl your
> hair... and they live through a 2000 hour transmission test. That does not
> make it best practice or recommended handling.
>
> If it were my engine and I planned to keep it forever, I would never be
> hard the engine while it is cold.
>
> I know what it says about the first oil change, but that is not what I
> would do. (And, not even what I did with my lease cars when I worked for C
> and DCX.) It is also not what we did in the durability and validation
> tests. Oil and filters are just too inexpensive to do that to a nice
> engine. There is always a lot of loose metal in a new engine, best get it
> out.
>
> Break-in on a modern engine is actually complete in about 5~10 hours
> depending on the engine (most passcar are close to five). You may even feel
> the engine loosen up at about five (or so) hours. You will notice the
> loosen up most in the start up and idle quality (tougher to feel now with
> the new engine controls). That would be a good time to put as much load on
> the engine as you can do and stay out of jail. That will make sure
> everything is where it belongs and is well seated. Just after that is a
> good time for an oil and filter.
>
> So, take it out and don't abuse it (remember never cold) for the first bit,
> then drive it like you know what it can do and don't have to prove it, but
> then take it for a good blast after it has loosened up.
>
> I realize that this all requires a lot of "seat of the pants" evaluation,
> but without a fully instrumented test stand, you just can't do much better
> than working your very own central processor.
>
> I hope I answered your questions.
>
> Matt
> --
> Matt & Mary Colie
> '73 Glacier 23 Chaumiere (say show-me-air) Just about as stock as you will
> find
> SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>

--
Steve Ferguson
Sierra Vista, AZ
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Re: [GMCnet] Engine break in question for Matt Colie [message #143469 is a reply to message #143444]

Thu, 15 September 2011 07:24

jhbridges

Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga

Karma: -74

Senior Member

Matt -
Do you see a pronounced drop in oil temp when the rings seat, as we did on aviation flat motor rebuilds?� Might be worth a temp probe dipstick, when the temp drops would tbe the time to hit the freeway and air it out?
�
--johnny

--- On Thu, 9/15/11, Matt Colie <matt7323tze@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Matt Colie <matt7323tze@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Engine break in question for Matt Colie
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Date: Thursday, September 15, 2011, 3:12 AM

idrob wrote on Wed, 14 September 2011 22:42
> This is a question for Matt Colie and anyone else who wishes to comment.
>
> My new Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 L Hemi V8 will be here next week.� I know there are three schools of thought on break in of brand new engines, the old "slow and careful, treat it gentle for a long time", the "run it hard and like you stole it after a first few miles and show it no mercy", and the general owners manual statements that say "drive it with some moderation for a couple of hundred miles and then just drive it like you would normally".� BTW, the primary use of the rig will be as a tow vehicle, for relatively small trailers, around 4000# max.
>
> Matt, I know in one of your former lives you did lots of engine testing, some to failure.� What would you personally do in the first 1 to 2 thousand miles on this engine?
>
> Second, most cars now just have the first engine oil change at the normal 5000 to 7000 mile point, no early changes required or recommended.� What is your opinion on that as general policy?
>
> I appreciate your answers, and anyone else who cares to chime in, just fine, do it.

Rob,

If you saw what we did to that engine in the lab, it would curl your hair... and they live through a 2000 hour transmission test.� That does not make it best practice or recommended handling.

If it were my engine and I planned to keep it forever, I would never be hard the engine while it is cold.

I know what it says about the first oil change, but that is not what I would do.� (And, not even what I did with my lease cars when I worked for C and DCX.)� It is also not what we did in the durability and validation tests.� Oil and filters are just too inexpensive to do that to a nice engine.� There is always a lot of loose metal in a new engine, best get it out.�

Break-in on a modern engine is actually complete in about 5~10� hours depending on the engine (most passcar are close to five).� You may even feel the engine loosen up at about five (or so) hours.� You will notice the loosen up most in the start up and idle quality (tougher to feel now with the new engine controls).� That would be a good time to put as much load on the engine as you can do and stay out of jail.� That will make sure everything is where it belongs and is well seated.� Just after that is a good time for an oil and filter.

So, take it out and don't abuse it (remember never cold) for the first bit, then drive it like you know what it can do and don't have to prove it, but then take it for a good blast after it has loosened up.

I realize that this all requires a lot of "seat of the pants" evaluation, but without a fully instrumented test stand, you just can't do much better than working your very own central processor.

I hope I answered your questions.

Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie
'73 Glacier 23 Chaumiere (say show-me-air) Just about as stock as you will find
SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons. Braselton, Ga. I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell

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Re: [GMCnet] Engine break in question for Matt Colie [message #143520 is a reply to message #143469]

Thu, 15 September 2011 20:51

Matt Colie

Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan

Karma: 7

Senior Member

Johnny Bridges wrote on Thu, 15 September 2011 08:24

Johnny,

Simple answer - No
The lab engines were always on a closed loop oil temperature upper limit control. We could monitor the percentage of cooling capability used, but even that was hard for the controlling computers to recognize when break-in was complete. What it really is amounts to the end of the change of the engines internal friction. That made BSFC (Brake Specific Fuel Consumption) the final determination. Yes, the engine test systems displayed this in real time.

The differences between a GA aircraft engine and a passcar engine are much greater then most people would ever expect. Unfortunately, I do not have time or bandwidth here at Milan to go into this at any length tonight.

There is just no way (in location typically specified) to get any street vehicle to conditions as stable as an aircraft in flight. I wish there were. That means one is left trying to recognize the reduction in internal friction by very subtle clues.

Another serious consideration is that it is not all that critical. Even if he misses the hot run by an hour late, it won't matter at all. If he does the hot run an hour early, it will still do no real harm, he just will burn a little more oil than he should. The bearings were probably done after the first two hours. The cost of operation per hour for a modern ground vehicle is a fraction of even an inexpensive GA, so running for break-in can be longer and not be expensive.

Matt

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