Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Swapping a Diesel into a GMC?
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| Re: [GMCnet] Swapping a Diesel into a GMC? [message #139356 is a reply to message #139355] |
Mon, 15 August 2011 21:16   |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Has anyone heard from Marc Hogenboom since he moved to Arizona (or was
it NM)? It would be interesting to hear how his diesel did on the
trip across the US.
Ken H.
On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 10:04 PM, James Hupy <jamesh1296@gmail.com> wrote:
> Andre, Bill Hubler from Caldwell ID has a 26' powered by a 6.5 L GM Turbo
> Diesel. He had it at our Salem Steam up rally in July. Good install. He is
> the one that invented the Hubler heavy duty front end. Member of the GMC
> Cascaders.
> Jim Hupy
> Salem, OR
> 78 GMC Royale 403
>
> On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 6:56 PM, Andre <andrusha77@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Has anyone accomplished this successfully? I'd like to look into swapping
>> out an Olds 455 for a newer Diesel engine that would be more reliable and
>> run on bio-diesel.
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Ken Henderson
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www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Swapping a Diesel into a GMC? [message #139381 is a reply to message #139360] |
Tue, 16 August 2011 00:10 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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David,
You're correct!
10 Cars That Damaged GM's Reputation (With Video) - Popular Mechanics
From the late 1970s and into the early '80s, Oldsmobile sold the most
popular car in America: the Cutlass. Olds was on a sales roll; it seemed
nothing would be able to stop the division. Then came the Oldsmobile
diesels, and stopping is exactly what they did best.
Instead of designing a new series of diesel engines from scratch, GM decided
to base its new diesel V8 architecture on the existing gasoline Oldsmobile
5.7-liter V8's. Of course the modifications were extensive in order to
handle the 22.5:1 compression ratio of diesel operation-much stouter iron
block, new cylinder heads, reinforced bottom end-but it was still a series
of modifications rather than a clean-sheet design. Soon after the 5.7-liter
diesel V8 debuted in Oldsmobile full-size 88 and 98 models (during 1978),
the engines started tearing themselves apart.
That extreme fragility was despite the fact that the 5.7-liter diesel option
cost between $800 and $1000 extra per car and only made a puny 120 hp and a
stingy 220 lb-ft of peak torque at 1600 rpm. In short, these engines were
awful. But the 4.3-liter version of the diesel V8 was even worse-rated at
only 90 hp, it was somehow even more fragile.
The diesel V8s (and a short-lived diesel V6) were eventually offered
throughout most of the Oldsmobile line and spread to the other vehicle
divisions as well. And when the engines inevitably blew up, the cars they
were in would either head to an early death in a junkyard or have a more
reasonable power plant swapped in.
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: David H. Jarvis
Can you convert the gas 455/403 to a diesel engine?
Do you mean convert the 455 engine in to a diesel?
I don't think the bottom end of the engine is strong enough for the higher
compression.
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Swapping a Diesel into a GMC? [message #139406 is a reply to message #139381] |
Tue, 16 August 2011 07:09 |
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An older brother had one of those 1978 clatter bangers. He, like me, liked
the concept.
The deception was thinking Olds could build a diesel as well as Mercedes.
If MB could do it, why not a division of GMC? Even VW had diesel Rabbits
back then. Only MB survived the times with a diesel that worked.
My brother and miserly sister-in-law didn't keep the Olds w/diesel very
long. It lacked power at climbing hills around Johnson City, TN. It didn't
want to start so easily after sitting on a cold parking lot all day in the
gray days of January. A retired couple in Florida could have used it
longer if they only drove to church on Sundays and the market on
Wednesdays.
The deal is this. If you want a vintage motorhome purpose-built as such
with a low entry floor and independent suspension all around then the FMC
with a Cummins in the rear is the way to go. It's a supportable solution
and several FMC owners have done the swap.
Byron Songer
Louisville, KY
Eastern States - http://www.gmceast.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au>
Reply-To: <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 15:10:28 +1000
To: <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Swapping a Diesel into a GMC?
>David,
>
>You're correct!
>
>10 Cars That Damaged GM's Reputation (With Video) - Popular Mechanics
>
>From the late 1970s and into the early '80s, Oldsmobile sold the most
>popular car in America: the Cutlass. Olds was on a sales roll; it seemed
>nothing would be able to stop the division. Then came the Oldsmobile
>diesels, and stopping is exactly what they did best.
>
>Instead of designing a new series of diesel engines from scratch, GM
>decided
>to base its new diesel V8 architecture on the existing gasoline Oldsmobile
>5.7-liter V8's. Of course the modifications were extensive in order to
>handle the 22.5:1 compression ratio of diesel operation-much stouter iron
>block, new cylinder heads, reinforced bottom end-but it was still a series
>of modifications rather than a clean-sheet design. Soon after the
>5.7-liter
>diesel V8 debuted in Oldsmobile full-size 88 and 98 models (during 1978),
>the engines started tearing themselves apart.
>
>That extreme fragility was despite the fact that the 5.7-liter diesel
>option
>cost between $800 and $1000 extra per car and only made a puny 120 hp and
>a
>stingy 220 lb-ft of peak torque at 1600 rpm. In short, these engines were
>awful. But the 4.3-liter version of the diesel V8 was even worse-rated at
>only 90 hp, it was somehow even more fragile.
>
>The diesel V8s (and a short-lived diesel V6) were eventually offered
>throughout most of the Oldsmobile line and spread to the other vehicle
>divisions as well. And when the engines inevitably blew up, the cars they
>were in would either head to an early death in a junkyard or have a more
>reasonable power plant swapped in.
>
>Regards,
>Rob M.
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: David H. Jarvis
>
>Can you convert the gas 455/403 to a diesel engine?
>
>Do you mean convert the 455 engine in to a diesel?
>I don't think the bottom end of the engine is strong enough for the higher
>compression.
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>GMCnet mailing list
>Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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--
Byron Songer
Full-timing to enjoy the USA
Former owner but still an admirer
GMC paint schemes at -
http://www.songerconsulting.net
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| Re: [GMCnet] Swapping a Diesel into a GMC? [message #139409 is a reply to message #139406] |
Tue, 16 August 2011 07:32 |
tphipps
Messages: 3005
Registered: August 2004
Location: Spanish Fort, AL
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Having helped, in a little way, Marc with his coach in Baltimore, He did once send me e-mail about his further adventure to N.M. He only had one more minor problem, but it was not engine related.
He installed a GMC/Chevy 6.2L diesel, that he bought from a junkyard. Looking at his install, the engine looked like it belonged there. Since it was about the same size as the 403, plenty of room, and no interior alterations to the coach.
My father bought one of the Oldsmobile diesels. After having GM replace the heads twice, and He replaced them once, He quit with the diesel and had a gas engine installed.
Tom Phipps,
keeping the 455 alive
2012 Phoenix Cruiser model 2552
KA4CSG
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| Re: [GMCnet] Swapping a Diesel into a GMC? [message #139414 is a reply to message #139381] |
Tue, 16 August 2011 07:59 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Bro had one, a marvelous car. Six folks at 70 per down the freeway with good mileage. BUT, many people thought it would perform like a gasoline engine. It wouldn't. And, if you take your gas burner full size Olds of the day, floor it at each startup and keep it floored up to highway speeds, it will come apart also.
And it's a shme, because the current thinking in Detroit is, the GM diesel burned the market for diesels forever. Chrysler makes a marvelous Grand Caravan fitted with the Italian Moto Vittori V-6 diesel, and they sell a lot of them. Not available in the U.S. I'd love to have one.
Sigh.
--johnny
--- On Tue, 8/16/11, Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au> wrote:
From: Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au>
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Swapping a Diesel into a GMC?
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Date: Tuesday, August 16, 2011, 5:10 AM
David,
You're correct!
10 Cars That Damaged GM's Reputation (With Video) - Popular Mechanics
From the late 1970s and into the early '80s, Oldsmobile sold the most
popular car in America: the Cutlass. Olds was on a sales roll; it seemed
nothing would be able to stop the division. Then came the Oldsmobile
diesels, and stopping is exactly what they did best.
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] Swapping a Diesel into a GMC? [message #139484 is a reply to message #139406] |
Tue, 16 August 2011 15:37 |
gmcrv1
Messages: 839
Registered: August 2007
Location: Memphis
Karma: -1
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Senior Member |
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I remember the exploding Oldsmobiles. I had an uncle selling them at the
local Cadillac/Olds showroom.
I wanted to buy one in the worse way. He told me to wait. Well. it wasn't
long and they started coming apart as mentioned.
That was also the same year Chevrolet was selling 25th anniversary Corvettes
at absurd prices - as well as the 1978 Indy Pace Car Vette.
Not a good year for GM.
I waited a year and a half, bought an Audi 5000S Diesel, average 35-38MPG on
a full size luxury car. I was commuting 100 miles round trip a day.
Sold it years later with 252,000 miles on it to a friend of mine -told him
the timing belt had to be changed soon, He didn't change it and it broke
and it
tore up the valve train.
Some days I wish I still had it - except for those below zero days in the
winter...
Tom Eckert N2VWN
73 Glacier
Oakland, TxN
On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 7:09 AM, Byron Songer
<bsonger@songerconsulting.net>wrote:
> An older brother had one of those 1978 clatter bangers. He, like me, liked
> the concept.
>
> The deception was thinking Olds could build a diesel as well as Mercedes.
> If MB could do it, why not a division of GMC? Even VW had diesel Rabbits
> back then. Only MB survived the times with a diesel that worked.
>
> My brother and miserly sister-in-law didn't keep the Olds w/diesel very
> long. It lacked power at climbing hills around Johnson City, TN. It didn't
> want to start so easily after sitting on a cold parking lot all day in the
> gray days of January. A retired couple in Florida could have used it
> longer if they only drove to church on Sundays and the market on
> Wednesdays.
>
> The deal is this. If you want a vintage motorhome purpose-built as such
> with a low entry floor and independent suspension all around then the FMC
> with a Cummins in the rear is the way to go. It's a supportable solution
> and several FMC owners have done the swap.
>
> Byron Songer
> Louisville, KY
> Eastern States - http://www.gmceast.com
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au>
> Reply-To: <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
> Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 15:10:28 +1000
> To: <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Swapping a Diesel into a GMC?
>
> >David,
> >
> >You're correct!
> >
> >10 Cars That Damaged GM's Reputation (With Video) - Popular Mechanics
> >
> >From the late 1970s and into the early '80s, Oldsmobile sold the most
> >popular car in America: the Cutlass. Olds was on a sales roll; it seemed
> >nothing would be able to stop the division. Then came the Oldsmobile
> >diesels, and stopping is exactly what they did best.
> >
> >Instead of designing a new series of diesel engines from scratch, GM
> >decided
> >to base its new diesel V8 architecture on the existing gasoline Oldsmobile
> >5.7-liter V8's. Of course the modifications were extensive in order to
> >handle the 22.5:1 compression ratio of diesel operation-much stouter iron
> >block, new cylinder heads, reinforced bottom end-but it was still a series
> >of modifications rather than a clean-sheet design. Soon after the
> >5.7-liter
> >diesel V8 debuted in Oldsmobile full-size 88 and 98 models (during 1978),
> >the engines started tearing themselves apart.
> >
> >That extreme fragility was despite the fact that the 5.7-liter diesel
> >option
> >cost between $800 and $1000 extra per car and only made a puny 120 hp and
> >a
> >stingy 220 lb-ft of peak torque at 1600 rpm. In short, these engines were
> >awful. But the 4.3-liter version of the diesel V8 was even worse-rated at
> >only 90 hp, it was somehow even more fragile.
> >
> >The diesel V8s (and a short-lived diesel V6) were eventually offered
> >throughout most of the Oldsmobile line and spread to the other vehicle
> >divisions as well. And when the engines inevitably blew up, the cars they
> >were in would either head to an early death in a junkyard or have a more
> >reasonable power plant swapped in.
> >
> >Regards,
> >Rob M.
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: David H. Jarvis
> >
> >Can you convert the gas 455/403 to a diesel engine?
> >
> >Do you mean convert the 455 engine in to a diesel?
> >I don't think the bottom end of the engine is strong enough for the higher
> >compression.
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >GMCnet mailing list
> >Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> >http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
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> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Subject: Re: Swapping a Diesel into a GMC? [message #139591 is a reply to message #139571] |
Wed, 17 August 2011 00:57 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Bob,
You note you want an engine AND transmission; is it a front wheel drive
transmission?
Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Bob Paterson
Sent: Wednesday, 17 August 2011 1:40 PM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: [GMCnet] Subject: Re: Swapping a Diesel into a GMC?
You need to drive any Mercedes Benz, powered by their Blue Tech, 3 litre
V-6 Diesel, you will realize what Power is available today.
@ 200 HP - @ 400 Ft Pds. torque.
I can't wait to find a rear-end wright-off, with a decent engine and
tranny..
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Swapping a Diesel into a GMC? [message #139697 is a reply to message #139414] |
Wed, 17 August 2011 20:12 |
Mike Teets
Messages: 299
Registered: January 2004
Location: Dublin, OH
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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We had a diesel toronado in 1978-80. As the athletic son of the family, on
several occasions I had to run home from some location to get one of the
families other cars to come back and take everyone home. I remember after
one particular Christmas eve service having to run home to get the Pontiac
wagon in 10 degree driving snow. That may have been the worst car I ever
remember riding in... including the Hugo.
On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 8:59 AM, Johnny Bridges <jhbridges@ymail.com> wrote:
> Bro had one, a marvelous car. Six folks at 70 per down the freeway with
> good mileage. BUT, many people thought it would perform like a gasoline
> engine. It wouldn't. And, if you take your gas burner full size Olds of
> the day, floor it at each startup and keep it floored up to highway speeds,
> it will come apart also.
> And it's a shme, because the current thinking in Detroit is, the GM diesel
> burned the market for diesels forever. Chrysler makes a marvelous Grand
> Caravan fitted with the Italian Moto Vittori V-6 diesel, and they sell a lot
> of them. Not available in the U.S. I'd love to have one.
> Sigh.
>
> --johnny
>
>
> --- On Tue, 8/16/11, Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au> wrote:
>
>
> From: Rob Mueller <robmueller@iinet.net.au>
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Swapping a Diesel into a GMC?
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Date: Tuesday, August 16, 2011, 5:10 AM
>
>
> David,
>
> You're correct!
>
> 10 Cars That Damaged GM's Reputation (With Video) - Popular Mechanics
>
> From the late 1970s and into the early '80s, Oldsmobile sold the most
> popular car in America: the Cutlass. Olds was on a sales roll; it seemed
> nothing would be able to stop the division. Then came the Oldsmobile
> diesels, and stopping is exactly what they did best.
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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Mike, GMCing since 2002
77 Palm Beach, 260, 403
Dublin, OH
http://teamteets.com/gmc/
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| Re: [GMCnet] Swapping a Diesel into a GMC? [message #139705 is a reply to message #139697] |
Wed, 17 August 2011 20:35 |
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jaholland
Messages: 565
Registered: June 2010
Location: Sweet Home Alebamy
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On The Other Hand
I had a '82 Pontiac Bonneville Diesel that would not pull an empty boat trailer up the boat ramp ~
The speed would drop to 25 MPH going up Fancy Gap and Black Mountian '
BUT
Tt Got Over 30 MPG on Flat Land ~
I Quickly Swapped Out The Lousy 200 Metric Tranny
For A 350
Then It Pulled And Ran Like A Scalded Dawg {over 200 K miles}~
I Did The Same On The 85 Olds Delta 88 Diesel {238,000 miles}
Both Were Excellent Servicable Cars For Me ~
~ Joe ~
By The Way
* I Love The PEUGEOT DIESELS
And Have Owned The Following Models ~
403D, 404D, 504D, 505D, and still have a 604D {with over 400k miles} ~
I Would Quickly Install A Peugeot Lorry Diesel Motor in My GMC Eleganza II
If I Lived Across The Pond ~
/_]*[__][] *[__|] ~ * '73 TZE063V101887 "
"
O----------OO--]* ~ '78 TZE168V100234 "
"
" Joe & Lavelle " "
"
'sweet home alebamy'
[Updated on: Wed, 17 August 2011 20:46] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: [GMCnet] Subject: Re: Swapping a Diesel into a GMC? [message #139712 is a reply to message #139637] |
Wed, 17 August 2011 21:01 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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G'day,
Here's a link to the Wikipedia entry for 4Matic Mercedes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mercedes-Benz_4matic_Gearbox.jpg
Here's a link to Mercedes E-Class vehicles
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_E-Class
Comment:
1) From the picture it sure looks pretty long for use in a GMC
2) The 500E station wagon weighs 3927 pounds - the GMC weighs 12,500 pounds
I realize that the weight of the Toronado was around 4000 lb also BUT the
TH-425 was WAY over designed and can cope with it. I wonder if the 4Matic
could. Enlarge the picture of the engine and transmission in the first link
and look at the diameter of the drive shaft that connects the transmission
to the FWD. Doesn't look beefy enough to handle a 12,500 pound vehicle.
Personally with the amount of work it would take to install it in a GMC I
wouldn't want to try only to find out it wouldn't take the weight!
An adapter plate to marry it to a TH-425 but the question then becomes will
the passenger side axle clear the crankshaft.
Finally I wonder what would a Mercedes Diesel in good order cost and if you
had problems with it what would it cost to repair?
Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
-----Original Message-----
From: The Patersons
I only know that some of their vehicles are 'All Wheel' or as they call
it, "Four-Matic", and the tranny are mostly 6 speed, and are smooth as silk.
Even if the tranny won't fit, I think an adapter could be made to match
the engine up with the Turbo 425.
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Swapping a Diesel into a GMC? [message #139718 is a reply to message #139356] |
Wed, 17 August 2011 21:25 |
Marc Hogenboom[2]
Messages: 70
Registered: March 2011
Karma: 0
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Member |
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Hi Ken,
Our diesel worked just fine on our cross country trip. We had some other
issues, but the engine held up great.
we averaged 15 Mpg and had plenty of power.
Marc Hogenboom
'73 Painted Desert Diesel
Madrid, New Mexico
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
From: Ken Henderson
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2011 8:16 PM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Swapping a Diesel into a GMC?
Has anyone heard from Marc Hogenboom since he moved to Arizona (or was
it NM)? It would be interesting to hear how his diesel did on the
trip across the US.
Ken H.
On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 10:04 PM, James Hupy <jamesh1296@gmail.com> wrote:
> Andre, Bill Hubler from Caldwell ID has a 26' powered by a 6.5 L GM Turbo
> Diesel. He had it at our Salem Steam up rally in July. Good install. He is
> the one that invented the Hubler heavy duty front end. Member of the GMC
> Cascaders.
> Jim Hupy
> Salem, OR
> 78 GMC Royale 403
>
> On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 6:56 PM, Andre <andrusha77@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Has anyone accomplished this successfully? I'd like to look into swapping
>> out an Olds 455 for a newer Diesel engine that would be more reliable and
>> run on bio-diesel.
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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| Re: [GMCnet] Swapping a Diesel into a GMC? [message #139724 is a reply to message #139718] |
Wed, 17 August 2011 21:38 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Hi Marc,
Good to hear from you. You've been awfully quiet here since your move.
We'd like to hear more from you. I assume you're pretty well settled in
now, probably even lost your accent (which I've never heard, of course), so
you don't have an excuse to stay away. :-)
Ken H.
On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 10:25 PM, Marc Hogenboom <marc.hogenboom@hotmail.com
> wrote:
> Hi Ken,
> Our diesel worked just fine on our cross country trip. We had some other
> issues, but the engine held up great.
> we averaged 15 Mpg and had plenty of power.
>
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Swapping a Diesel into a GMC? [message #139762 is a reply to message #139705] |
Thu, 18 August 2011 06:41 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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One of the sales guys in Birmingham had a Pigout diesel. Utter stone... but total luxury inside. Leather, comfortable, top fit and finish. Interesting philosophy, that thing.
--johnny
* I Love PEUGEOT DIESELS
And Have owned the following models ~
403D, 404D, %04D, %05D, and still have a 604D withover 400k miles ~
--
/_]*[__][] *[__|] ~ * '73 TZE063V101887 ""
O---------OO--]* ~ '78 TZE168V100234 ""
" Joe & Lavelle " ""
'sweet home alebamy'
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Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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