Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Stuck again...! Temp sensor failed, engine hot, won't start
| Stuck again...! Temp sensor failed, engine hot, won't start [message #138908] |
Sat, 13 August 2011 16:09  |
Andrew
Messages: 213
Registered: April 2011
Location: Connecticut
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I'm about an hour outside my previous failure location (transmission failure), now north of Harrisonburg VA..
Was driving along fairly happily when then temp sensor dropped to below C. I had been watching, but am not sure if it went high immediately before. Oil gauge was bouncing around a bit, but mostly hovering slightly below 1/2.
I stopped at a rest area to take a look, infrared says the engine is 200* or so on the top of the block. Within normal range, though it feels darn hot as I am presently sitting on the hatch cover.
Coach now won't restart. I'm waiting for it to cool down, and hoping for better luck. The carb throat is wide open and won't close by hand. Starter fluid evaporates off the carb immediately.
Oh yeah, and it's pouring rain.
Anything else I should try while I wait?
1973 Sequoia 260 (since 2011)
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| Re: Stuck again...! Temp sensor failed, engine hot, won't start [message #138909 is a reply to message #138908] |
Sat, 13 August 2011 16:21  |
C Boyd
Messages: 2629
Registered: April 2006
Karma: 18
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| Andrew wrote on Sat, 13 August 2011 17:09 |
I'm about an hour outside my previous failure location (transmission failure), now north of Harrisonburg VA..
Was driving along fairly happily when then temp sensor dropped to below C. I had been watching, but am not sure if it went high immediately before. Oil gauge was bouncing around a bit, but mostly hovering slightly below 1/2.
I stopped at a rest area to take a look, infrared says the engine is 200* or so on the top of the block. Within normal range, though it feels darn hot as I am presently sitting on the hatch cover.
Coach now won't restart. I'm waiting for it to cool down, and hoping for better luck. The carb throat is wide open and won't close by hand. Starter fluid evaporates off the carb immediately.
Oh yeah, and it's pouring rain.
Anything else I should try while I wait?
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Sir: it sounds if you may have lost your coolant. Let it cool and check the radiator. the cap is a hassle sometimes. Since it is raining a water leak may not be evedent. If you mean the choke butterfly won`t close by hand, just crack the throttle open a little and it will release.
C. Boyd
76 Crestmont
East Tennessee
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| Re: Stuck again...! Temp sensor failed, engine hot, won't start [message #138919 is a reply to message #138909] |
Sat, 13 August 2011 17:58 |
Andrew
Messages: 213
Registered: April 2011
Location: Connecticut
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| C Boyd wrote on Sat, 13 August 2011 16:21 |
Sir: it sounds if you may have lost your coolant. Let it cool and check the radiator. the cap is a hassle sometimes. Since it is raining a water leak may not be evedent. If you mean the choke butterfly won`t close by hand, just crack the throttle open a little and it will release.
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Yikes. The reservoir was below COLD, but not empty. The coach is now ambient, so I added some coolant to reach the lower mark. There was some evidence of moisture up on the air filter cover, but I assumed it was road spray.
If the radiator (which is new, by the way, with new hoses etc) was leaking, would there be any fluid left in the reservoir?
Would there be a relationship between that and the temp gauge failing/being stuck at 0/pegged low...?
...
Yes, the choke butterfly. I actuated the accelerator, and it moved but does not return to its normal closed position.
Thanks, Chuck!
1973 Sequoia 260 (since 2011)
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| Re: Stuck again...! Temp sensor failed, engine hot, won't start [message #138920 is a reply to message #138919] |
Sat, 13 August 2011 18:13 |
C Boyd
Messages: 2629
Registered: April 2006
Karma: 18
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| Andrew wrote on Sat, 13 August 2011 18:58 |
| C Boyd wrote on Sat, 13 August 2011 16:21 |
Sir: it sounds if you may have lost your coolant. Let it cool and check the radiator. the cap is a hassle sometimes. Since it is raining a water leak may not be evedent. If you mean the choke butterfly won`t close by hand, just crack the throttle open a little and it will release.
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Yikes. The reservoir was below COLD, but not empty. The coach is now ambient, so I added some coolant to reach the lower mark. There was some evidence of moisture up on the air filter cover, but I assumed it was road spray.
If the radiator (which is new, by the way, with new hoses etc) was leaking, would there be any fluid left in the reservoir?
Would there be a relationship between that and the temp gauge failing/being stuck at 0/pegged low...?
...
Yes, the choke butterfly. I actuated the accelerator, and it moved but does not return to its normal closed position.
Thanks, Chuck!
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You still need to get the rad cap off and check for coolant, it is hard to do. If it is low, fill with water and check for leaks. If a hose clamp or something came loose it could have some coolant left in the plastic tank. With the inside hatch open top front of engine is a sensor with one wire going to it, that is the temp gsuge, check the wire. When the engine cools off the choke will close and then open when warm. It will not automatically close fully until the engine is ambient cold, but you can crack the throttle and hold it closed if you are trying to choke it manually. The relationship of the gauge falling all at once usually indicated there is no coolant to read temp of or the wire came off the sensor.
C. Boyd
76 Crestmont
East Tennessee
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| Re: [GMCnet] Stuck again...! Temp sensor failed, engine hot, won't start [message #138922 is a reply to message #138919] |
Sat, 13 August 2011 18:19 |
sgltrac
Messages: 2797
Registered: April 2011
Karma: 1
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If the cooling system was drained for radiator and hoses its possible the when re-filled there might be an air void inside the engine. As Chuck said, an air void could cause the gauge to not read since there is no coolant flowing past it. Make sure engine is cool and top off radiator. If radiator is full and temp gauge wire is hooked up but still not reading you may have a stuck thermostat. I would not drive far until you verify engine temp and coolant level/flow. Hope you did not blow a head gasket.
Sully
77 royale
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew <reynhout@quesera.com>
Sender: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 17:58:05
To: <gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org>
Reply-To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Stuck again...! Temp sensor failed, engine hot,
won't start
C Boyd wrote on Sat, 13 August 2011 16:21
> Sir: it sounds if you may have lost your coolant. Let it cool and check the radiator. the cap is a hassle sometimes. Since it is raining a water leak may not be evedent. If you mean the choke butterfly won`t close by hand, just crack the throttle open a little and it will release.
Yikes. The reservoir was below COLD, but not empty. The coach is now ambient, so I added some coolant to reach the lower mark. There was some evidence of moisture up on the air filter cover, but I assumed it was road spray.
If the radiator (which is new, by the way, with new hoses etc) was leaking, would there be any fluid left in the reservoir?
Would there be a relationship between that and the temp gauge failing/being stuck at 0/pegged low...?
...
Yes, the choke butterfly. I actuated the accelerator, and it moved but does not return to its normal closed position.
Thanks, Chuck!
--
1973 Sequoia 260 (since 2011)
Savannah, GA
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Sully
77 Royale basket case.
Future motorhome land speed record holder(bucket list)
Seattle, Wa.
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| Re: Stuck again...! Temp sensor failed, engine hot, won't start [message #138923 is a reply to message #138920] |
Sat, 13 August 2011 18:27 |
C Boyd
Messages: 2629
Registered: April 2006
Karma: 18
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| C Boyd wrote on Sat, 13 August 2011 19:13 |
| Andrew wrote on Sat, 13 August 2011 18:58 |
| C Boyd wrote on Sat, 13 August 2011 16:21 |
Sir: it sounds if you may have lost your coolant. Let it cool and check the radiator. the cap is a hassle sometimes. Since it is raining a water leak may not be evedent. If you mean the choke butterfly won`t close by hand, just crack the throttle open a little and it will release.
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Yikes. The reservoir was below COLD, but not empty. The coach is now ambient, so I added some coolant to reach the lower mark. There was some evidence of moisture up on the air filter cover, but I assumed it was road spray.
If the radiator (which is new, by the way, with new hoses etc) was leaking, would there be any fluid left in the reservoir?
Would there be a relationship between that and the temp gauge failing/being stuck at 0/pegged low...?
...
Yes, the choke butterfly. I actuated the accelerator, and it moved but does not return to its normal closed position.
Thanks, Chuck!
|
You still need to get the rad cap off and check for coolant, it is hard to do. If it is low, fill with water and check for leaks. If a hose clamp or something came loose it could have some coolant left in the plastic tank. With the inside hatch open top front of engine is a sensor with one wire going to it, that is the temp gsuge, check the wire. When the engine cools off the choke will close and then open when warm. It will not automatically close fully until the engine is ambient cold, but you can crack the throttle and hold it closed if you are trying to choke it manually. The relationship of the gauge falling all at once usually indicated there is no coolant to read temp of or the wire came off the sensor.
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Water on the air filter might indicate a top rad hose at either end or the heater hose that comes off the top on the back of the engine, if mechanics have been hanging over the hole they could use these points as a hand brace spot. Usually hose is leaking at the clamp and can be trimed off and reclamped.
C. Boyd
76 Crestmont
East Tennessee
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| Re: Stuck again...! Temp sensor failed, engine hot, won't start [message #138958 is a reply to message #138908] |
Sat, 13 August 2011 21:24 |
Andrew
Messages: 213
Registered: April 2011
Location: Connecticut
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I am thinking now that the temp issue was coincidental with the starting issue. The engine is fully cooled now, but the choke is still stuck open. It doesn't close back up to the normal position when the throttle is actuated, and the coach still won't start.
The coach was running fine/maybe a bit hot up until I turned it off to take a look, so I feel safe in eliminating most of the carb/fuel delivery troubleshooting paths in the maint manual. Might just be the stuck choke...any manual un-sticking suggestions?
1973 Sequoia 260 (since 2011)
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| Re: Stuck again...! Temp sensor failed, engine hot, won't start [message #138960 is a reply to message #138908] |
Sat, 13 August 2011 21:28 |
Andrew
Messages: 213
Registered: April 2011
Location: Connecticut
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I did check the radiator cap after things had cooled off a bit, and it had pressure and fluid. The temp sensor clearly isn't working right, but that issue might just be a distraction. I'll check it with a meter tomorrow when the light returns.
1973 Sequoia 260 (since 2011)
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| Re: [GMCnet] Stuck again...! Temp sensor failed, engine hot, won't start [message #138964 is a reply to message #138958] |
Sat, 13 August 2011 21:38 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Andrew,
Who installed the radiator? It's been mentioned in other answers, but the
GMC WILL trap air in the cooling system when drained. If the installer was
not familiar with the GMC, he may not have recognized that the heater core
and quite a bit of hose are ABOVE the radiator. There's also the long hose
run to the hot water heater and back. No amount of water poured into the
radiator cap will fill the system completely. There are only two methods I
know to completely eliminate air:
1. Fill the system through the radiator cap and fill the overflow bottle.
Warm the engine until air is expelled throught the overflow. Allow the
engine to cool until coolant is drawn from the overflow tank into the
radiator. Refill the overflow tank and repeat the warm/cool cycle.
Continue until the overflow tank lo longer loses coolant.
2. Use a pressure fill system something like:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showgallery.php?cat=4278
Ken H.
Americus, GA
'76 X-Birchaven w/Cad500/Howell EFI+ & EBL
www.gmcwipersetc.com
On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 10:24 PM, Andrew <reynhout@quesera.com> wrote:
>
>
> I am thinking now that the temp issue was coincidental with the starting
> issue....
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Ken Henderson
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Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: Stuck again...! Temp sensor failed, engine hot, won't start [message #138990 is a reply to message #138960] |
Sun, 14 August 2011 00:23 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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No temperature gauge and the engine quit. This sounds like an electrical problem.
It is a 73 coach so you have a points ignition. Do you have voltage to the coil. Notice I did not say 12 volts since the voltage to the coil runs through a resistor first. The voltage at the coil will vary depending on whether the points are closed or not.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: Stuck again...! Temp sensor failed, engine hot, won't start [message #139001 is a reply to message #138908] |
Sun, 14 August 2011 06:07 |
Andrew
Messages: 213
Registered: April 2011
Location: Connecticut
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The radiator was replaced by Southland, so it should have been proper at time of install, at least.
Viewed from the top of the carb, the larger hinged plate that is toward the front of the coach is normally "flat" or "closed" when the engine is cool. It is currently stuck in a vertical or open position. It hasn't closed by itself, and won't close manually. I assumed this was the choke, and it was letting too much air in to start.
I have not checked electricals or spark yet.. I lost the light last night while still pondering the cooling question. Since the coach was running fine right up until I turned it off to look around, I didn't suspect ignition bits.
I've never turned the coach off after an hour of driving and immediately had a restart problem before, so I might not be familiar with normal operating temps. It felt hot, and I lost the temp sensor for some reason, but infrared said about 200* on the block itself. That's normal, I think.
I expected it to start up as soon as it cooled off a bit, but so far obviously not. The only visibly unusual thing I've found so far is that plate in the carb.
Thanks for all of your help!
1973 Sequoia 260 (since 2011)
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| Re: Stuck again...! Temp sensor failed, engine hot, won't start [message #139009 is a reply to message #138908] |
Sun, 14 August 2011 08:34 |
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RF_Burns
Messages: 2277
Registered: June 2008
Location: S. Ontario, Canada
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I with Ken on this, an electrical problem.
First, if there was no coolant under the sensor, the intake was still hot and so the sensor would be hot.
I'm thinking the temp gauge is just another symptom of the problem.
You mentioned "starter fluid", but if you pump the accelerator do you see a gas squirt into the carb?
It could be your ignition switch was failing. The power to the gauge went first and now that you have moved the switch contacts they no longer make contact for ignition. Check for power at the coil and spark per Ken B.
Just my ex-farmboy mechanic opinion.
Bruce Hislop
ON Canada
77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.
1 ton front end
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that
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| Re: Stuck again...! Temp sensor failed, engine hot, won't start [message #139024 is a reply to message #139001] |
Sun, 14 August 2011 09:40 |
C Boyd
Messages: 2629
Registered: April 2006
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| Andrew wrote on Sun, 14 August 2011 07:07 |
The radiator was replaced by Southland, so it should have been proper at time of install, at least.
Viewed from the top of the carb, the larger hinged plate that is toward the front of the coach is normally "flat" or "closed" when the engine is cool. It is currently stuck in a vertical or open position. It hasn't closed by itself, and won't close manually. I assumed this was the choke, and it was letting too much air in to start.
I have not checked electricals or spark yet.. I lost the light last night while still pondering the cooling question. Since the coach was running fine right up until I turned it off to look around, I didn't suspect ignition bits.
I've never turned the coach off after an hour of driving and immediately had a restart problem before, so I might not be familiar with normal operating temps. It felt hot, and I lost the temp sensor for some reason, but infrared said about 200* on the block itself. That's normal, I think.
I expected it to start up as soon as it cooled off a bit, but so far obviously not. The only visibly unusual thing I've found so far is that plate in the carb.
Thanks for all of your help!
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Andrew: water on top of the air cleaner might also mean moisture in the dist. Maybe pull the cap and look in side. Does it have points or is the coil in the cap? Also look for cracks. I am still not sure what you are speaking of on the carb. Maybe if you call me I could get a better understanding?
eight six five 384 four 0 six 2. Since the tranny was just out, they probably had the starter off and could have a loose wire on the starter. This is where the dist gets its power. If you do find a loose wire be sure and unhook the neg engine battery cable before trying to tighten.
C. Boyd
76 Crestmont
East Tennessee
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| Re: Stuck again...! Temp sensor failed, engine hot, won't start [message #139025 is a reply to message #138908] |
Sun, 14 August 2011 09:45 |
Andrew
Messages: 213
Registered: April 2011
Location: Connecticut
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I'm getting good spark on the coil output. The engine makes the same sound with the main distributor wire disconnected as it does when connected.
The whole carb is remarkably dry. I do NOT get a spurt of gas when pumping the accelerator. I don't have a wrench big enough to get the carb side of the fuel filter housing off, and the hose side is too stuck to turn without bending the tube.
I'm running out of roadside repair options and thinking I'll need to get another weekend tow to a closed repair shop. I have a couple fuel filters, but no other parts of use. No temp sensor. No fuel pump either.
1973 Sequoia 260 (since 2011)
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| Re: Stuck again...! Temp sensor failed, engine hot, won't start [message #139027 is a reply to message #138908] |
Sun, 14 August 2011 09:54 |
chasingsummer
Messages: 434
Registered: May 2011
Location: asheboro, nc
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i am no where experienced as others here, but the plate he is mentioning , to me sounds like the carb throttle plate, not choke, isnt there linkage there where cable connects that if bound up could hold this open, but if throttle plate is open, besides maybe not wanting to cold start truely make no big difference,
is there any way dizzy has been changed to hei and that module thing is done.
just saw last post, no gas, i assume you tried switching tanks incase a sender is bad?
brian
asheboro, nc
75 eleganza, 74 build
119k miles and counting,
DOG HOUSE
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| Re: Stuck again...! Temp sensor failed, engine hot, won't start [message #139032 is a reply to message #139027] |
Sun, 14 August 2011 10:19 |
Carl S.
Messages: 4186
Registered: January 2009
Location: Tucson, AZ.
Karma: 13
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Andrew,
You obviously have a fuel (or lack of fuel) problem. The choke will not close when the engine is warm, but should close, when you open the throttle (step on the gas) when cold. Regardless, you don't need the choke to start the engine. IF you have fuel in the carburetor bowl, you should be getting a squirt of gas, into each of the primary throats of the carb. from the throttle pump, every time you open the throttle. Even a cold engine will start with a few pumps of the gas pedal. It may not run very well until it warms up, without the choke operating, but it will start if you have spark, gas and compression (in the proper order, of course)
It is strange that your fuel pump just happened to die when you stopped to investigate an unrelated problem. Getting to the most basic possibility, is it possible that your linkage has come loose from the carb? That would explain the lack of any response from the choke and throttle pump. If you are stepping on the gas pedal, and nothing is moving on the carb. it would act the way you are describing. I'm not trying to insult your intelligence, but sometimes it is easy to overlook the most basic things.
Carl Stouffer
'75 ex Palm Beach
Tucson, AZ.
Chuck Aulgur Reaction Arm Disc Brakes, Quadrabags, 3.70 LSD final drive, Lenzi knuckles/hubs, Dodge Truck 16" X 8" front wheels, Rear American Eagles, Solar battery charging. GMCSJ and GMCMI member
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| Re: Stuck again...! Temp sensor failed, engine hot, won't start [message #139049 is a reply to message #138908] |
Sun, 14 August 2011 11:12 |
Andrew
Messages: 213
Registered: April 2011
Location: Connecticut
Karma: 0
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I spoke to Chuck on the phone, and he walked me through bunch of diag steps. He suggested I might be sucking air or at least not fuel into the carb, and that does seem to be the case. Fuel hoses to the pump look good, and the rubber ones are new. Hose clamps appear secure.
Throttle linkage does work.. I can see the mechanism in the carb operate when the accelerator is pressed. The choke plate DID go down this morning, but would not do so several hours after the coach stopped last night. Chuck said this wasn't too surprising, so I probably spent too much time focusing on that.
Emery, you're right I do have a big pair of channellocks. Wasn't thinking straight. Will try that presently. I agree that it seems unlikely that the fuel pump died just as I shut the coach off, but that's what I'll test next. I see no evidence of gas in the carb at all when pumping the accelerator. This is why Chuck suggested an air leak (I have been having some starting issues for a while, always remedied by a quick shot of starter fluid, but perhaps a small problem got bigger).
Testing fuel pump now..
1973 Sequoia 260 (since 2011)
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| Re: Stuck again...! Temp sensor failed, engine hot, won't start [message #139055 is a reply to message #138908] |
Sun, 14 August 2011 11:33 |
Andrew
Messages: 213
Registered: April 2011
Location: Connecticut
Karma: 0
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Well, channel locks or not, I still can't get at the fuel filter. The tube side is bending too much to try harder, and holding it with another wrench doesn't work since it's fully threaded into the housing, so it just fights itself. I'm letting it soak in wd-40 for now.
Carl, I meant to say earlier, don't hesitate to insult my intelligence. You'll probably be right, and either way I'm not easily offended.  I was in fact talking about the choke earlier, but I was describing it incorrectly. It's the small valve pair in front, not the big one. All of my engine experience comes from tiny low-hundreds of cc's Italian air cooled two-stroke motorcycle motors, so my frames of reference are suspect, at best.
1973 Sequoia 260 (since 2011)
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